Cisco switch

Huge posted:

My experience changing from a Netgear GS105 to a Cisco 2960 8TC-L is that a slight veil has been lifted from the sound.

It's not night and day, it's not even a foggy day to a clear day, more like the difference between a slightly hazy summer's day and a summer's day shortly after rain.

Did you have the ground shunt on the Netgear? Because this is a good description of the sound change of the Netgear after adding the ground shunt adapter as laid out by John Swenson of Uptone over on CA. It’s why I hesitate to go to a Cisco if I don’t have to.

I do not need to because I do not want C2960, as I said before, my internet speed is approaching 400 mbps and I do not want a 100 mbps switch to be a bottleneck!

Peder posted:

Frank Yang posted:

Huge posted:

I use a Cisco WS-C2960G-8TC-L and mine operates fine at 1000BaseT.

Yes, this one is good and I would also recommend it, but it is more than 3 times the price of the one without the 'G' in the used market,

But have you really compared it to the Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L,Simon's theory is that one thing who do the better SQ,is because it's a 100-switch.

/Peder ???? 

I have compared it to a different 100BaseT switch; the Cisco won.

Between the other switches I have I couldn't tell a difference between the 1000BaseT and 100BaseT switches, but they were both 'desktop' type unmanaged switches (with the usual quality compromises), rather than pro quality managed switches intended for larger installations where there is the need to minimise the risk of unpredictable component-component interactions.

Whatever this so called tuning method is, I know that most of my musician and producer friends would be laughing their asses off at it....

charlesphoto posted:

Huge posted:

My experience changing from a Netgear GS105 to a Cisco 2960 8TC-L is that a slight veil has been lifted from the sound.

It's not night and day, it's not even a foggy day to a clear day, more like the difference between a slightly hazy summer's day and a summer's day shortly after rain.

Did you have the ground shunt on the Netgear? Because this is a good description of the sound change of the Netgear after adding the ground shunt adapter as laid out by John Swenson of Uptone over on CA. It’s why I hesitate to go to a Cisco if I don’t have to.

I hadn't seen his article, but yes my Ethernet network did have a single ground connection to earth for the RJ45 socket shrouds and that was, in turn, connected to the DC -ve connection of the SMPS by the switch, so yes there was a 'ground shunt' for the PSU (and yes, breaking that ground connection did indeed cause a degree of sound degradation).

So in my case adding another ground connection (in addition to the one I had already arranged) would make the grounding less effective (loop currents) rather than improving it.

However the Cisco is better than the grounded GS-105.

Theron posted:

Peder I think your being very rude to Mike.

???? Tune dem is subjective what sounds better to one person may sound worse to another.???? 

???? Otherwise we'd all agree which system sounds best.

 

???? No,no,no Theron,here you are wrong.If you know, and can use the Tune Method you should not say that.

It's here the Tune Method is so good,I,and all my friends,all around in Sweden that we have meet,dealers ect....everybody has the same conclusion, what's better when you use the Tune Method. Even beginners hear what's better,....everyone hear it,if you do it right. Because of that,I,Lejonklou,Linn ect....all  who can work with this method say.....it is not subjective.

???? That's the point,when you use the Tune Method ALL agree which system.......not sounds best.But have better musicality,better music "flow",is more fun to listen to,your foot start tapping ect......there you have it ????????????.

/Peder ???? 

charlesphoto posted:

Whatever this so called tuning method is, I know that most of my musician and producer friends would be laughing their asses off at it....

And audio engineers are all asking "What's new about that, as a check and optimisation step we've been doing that for donkey's years".

(I did just that for my amp designs more than 30 years ago!  Linn have just given a name to something that's been around since the dawn of electronic amplification.  It's nothing new and it's still organoleptic, i.e. subjective, assessment.)

Frank Yang posted:

I do not need to because I do not want C2960, as I said before, my internet speed is approaching 400 mbps and I do not want a 100 mbps switch to be a bottleneck!

Reading all the details of this and other threads as I do the message is to use the switch between the NAS and the streamer. The speed will in any case be reduced to the best speed of the two. My NAS is quite old and only manages 10Mb/s but it’s more than enough. The Naim streamer don’t do fast Ethernet. You can always use the uplink to exploit your fast internet for TIDAL but I doubt it have any benefit.

I wish the FAQs had a collected wisdom on this and other topics!

Phil

Frank Yang posted:

I do not need to because I do not want C2960, as I said before, my internet speed is approaching 400 mbps and I do not want a 100 mbps switch to be a bottleneck!

???? How can you recommend it here, if you have not listen to and compared this 2 cisco's..........this is a high end-forum and we talk Soundquality here.

You shall only have your streamer,nas on the cisco....with an eht-cable from your router.

To the other "stuff" you can have what switch you want from your router.

/Peder ???? 

Filipe posted:

Frank Yang posted:

I do not need to because I do not want C2960, as I said before, my internet speed is approaching 400 mbps and I do not want a 100 mbps switch to be a bottleneck!

Reading all the details of this and other threads as I do the message is to use the switch between the NAS and the streamer. The speed will in any case be reduced to the best speed of the two. My NAS is quite old and only manages 10Mb/s but it’s more than enough. The Naim streamer don’t do fast Ethernet. You can always use the uplink to exploit your fast internet for TIDAL but I doubt it have any benefit.

I wish the FAQs had a collected wisdom on this and other topics!

Phil

One of the ports that I use goes into a MM, and another one goes into a Linn DS, and the NAS also appreciates high bandwidth, so I do need high speed

Peder posted:

You shall only have your streamer,nas on the cisco....with an eht-cable from your router.

To the other "stuff" you can have what switch you want from your router.

/Peder ???? 

I did that test.

With the Netgear switch, I think there was a difference when my computer was connected (UTP) to the switch connecting the NAS and the Streamer (but the difference was quite small); with the Cisco 2960 switch I can't tell any difference whether the computer is connected to that switch or to my router.

charlesphoto posted:

Whatever this so called tuning method is, I know that most of my musician and producer friends would be laughing their asses off at it....

People who don't know about a thing used to do so sometimes.....laughing. But your input really say's nothing.

Don't you think it would be better, if you read and learn a little about the Tune Method before you talk about it. The discussion with you should be much more interesting then,and when you have learn and practice a little with the Method.......you shall be surpriced what it gives you in SoundQuality from your system. I promised you that.

And about musicians and producers,I am in this buisness,and can tell you.....the most of them have terrible systems, and know nothing about home hifi system-installations.

But I think it's strange, that so many who has write in this thread,doesn't know about this method,....I mean,we are on  Naim's forum,....Linn and Naim "flat-earth" and it comes from that company's......strange indeed.

/Peder ???? 

Huge posted:

???? And audio engineers are all asking "What's new about that, as a check and optimisation step we've been doing that for donkey's years".

???? (I did just that for my amp designs more than 30 years ago!  Linn have just given a name to something that's been around since the dawn of electronic amplification.  It's nothing new and it's still organoleptic, i.e. subjective, assessment.)

???? With respect,you also talk about a whole different thing,audio engineers doesn't know and/or work with Tune Method in their professionell live. I know I have been there ????????????.

???? Here, I really don't know what you mean,one thing I know,.....you DON'T talk about the Tune Method.

I say to you to,learn more about the method,after that we can talk more.....then we are more on the same level. I have a rule for myself,I never talk and have opinions in a subject that I don't know about......it's better that way.

Maybe I don't really understand what you mean,but in that case....explane more in detail.

/Peder ???? 

Frank Yang posted:

Filipe posted:

Frank Yang posted:

I do not need to because I do not want C2960, as I said before, my internet speed is approaching 400 mbps and I do not want a 100 mbps switch to be a bottleneck!

Reading all the details of this and other threads as I do the message is to use the switch between the NAS and the streamer. The speed will in any case be reduced to the best speed of the two. My NAS is quite old and only manages 10Mb/s but it’s more than enough. The Naim streamer don’t do fast Ethernet. You can always use the uplink to exploit your fast internet for TIDAL but I doubt it have any benefit.

I wish the FAQs had a collected wisdom on this and other topics!

Phil

One of the ports that I use goes into a MM, and another one goes into a Linn DS, and the NAS also appreciates high bandwidth, so I do need high speed

I doubt a CD needs more than a few Mb/s so hard to see why 400Mb/s Internet is needed. Many of us would struggle to get that speed or even 80Mb/s. We will have to see what demands Naim put on us in the future. Most of us are very happy with the basic Cisco 2960-8tc-L which with a streamer of CD quality music, DAC, preamp etc sounds amazing!

Phil

it is curious that a member invests so much energy to defend a product, the cisco 2960...and is posting comments only on this component.....perhaps some personal financial interests are concerned ?

Peder posted:

charlesphoto posted:

Whatever this so called tuning method is, I know that most of my musician and producer friends would be laughing their asses off at it....

People who don't know about a thing used to do so sometimes.....laughing. But your input really say's nothing.

Don't you think it would be better, if you read and learn a little about the Tune Method before you talk about it. The discussion with you should be much more interesting then,and when you have learn and practice a little with the Method.......you shall be surpriced what it gives you in SoundQuality from your system. I promised you that.

And about musicians and producers,I am in this buisness,and can tell you.....the most of them have terrible systems, and know nothing about home hifi system-installations.

But I think it's strange, that so many who has write in this thread,doesn't know about this method,....I mean,we are on  Naim's forum,....Linn and Naim "flat-earth" and it comes from that company's......strange indeed.

/Peder ???? 

"Silent repetition of the sound from the loudspeakers" - ok I'll bite - what the heck is that?

"Sing along to the tune" - nobody, believe me NOBODY, including myself, needs to hear me singing along to any tune, from anything! Way to ruin a demo in seconds flat. 

Bunch of hifi hogwash to try and somehow make Linn different or more sale-able if you ask me. Just listen and figure out what sounds best - for some it's detail, others "musicality" but for most a combination of the two. How is this different from just listening to the music coming out of the speakers and making a choice? 

Filipe posted:

Frank Yang posted:

Filipe posted:

Frank Yang posted:

I do not need to because I do not want C2960, as I said before, my internet speed is approaching 400 mbps and I do not want a 100 mbps switch to be a bottleneck!

Reading all the details of this and other threads as I do the message is to use the switch between the NAS and the streamer. The speed will in any case be reduced to the best speed of the two. My NAS is quite old and only manages 10Mb/s but it’s more than enough. The Naim streamer don’t do fast Ethernet. You can always use the uplink to exploit your fast internet for TIDAL but I doubt it have any benefit.

I wish the FAQs had a collected wisdom on this and other topics!

Phil

One of the ports that I use goes into a MM, and another one goes into a Linn DS, and the NAS also appreciates high bandwidth, so I do need high speed

I doubt a CD needs more than a few Mb/s so hard to see why 400Mb/s Internet is needed. Many of us would struggle to get that speed or even 80Mb/s. We will have to see what demands Naim put on us in the future. Most of us are very happy with the basic Cisco 2960-8tc-L which with a streamer of CD quality music, DAC, preamp etc sounds amazing!

Phil

Nope, I think you miss my point entirely, but never mind . 
Enjoy the Easter.

FWIW I did an A/B session this morning with a factory refurbished fanless 24 port Trendnet switch with built in SMPS (like the Cisco) I got for whole house traffic, vs the Netgear FS105 sub switch with LPS and ground shunt. I have to say I prefer just the Trendnet - it's a bit sharper, more dynamic and zingier without being too much so to the point of fatigue, though the sound was very close between the two. Which is great, because it simplifies things, and I was able to repurpose the LPS (only paid $10 for the switch). I do have a pair of TP LINK 110MCS fiber media converters after the switch, farthest from V1 powered by an iFi, closest by an HDPLEX LPS. Those probably mitigate the difference by quite a  bit, but I do prefer the sound with them in the system vs without. 

Peder posted:

Huge posted:

???? And audio engineers are all asking "What's new about that, as a check and optimisation step we've been doing that for donkey's years".

???? (I did just that for my amp designs more than 30 years ago!  Linn have just given a name to something that's been around since the dawn of electronic amplification.  It's nothing new and it's still organoleptic, i.e. subjective, assessment.)

???? With respect,you also talk about a whole different thing,audio engineers doesn't know and/or work with Tune Method in their professionell live. I know I have been there ????????????.

???? Here, I really don't know what you mean,one thing I know,.....you DON'T talk about the Tune Method.

I say to you to,learn more about the method,after that we can talk more.....then we are more on the same level. I have a rule for myself,I never talk and have opinions in a subject that I don't know about......it's better that way.

Maybe I don't really understand what you mean,but in that case....explane more in detail.

/Peder ???? 

 

"???? With respect,you also talk about a whole different thing,audio engineers doesn't know and/or work with Tune Method in their professionell live. I know I have been there ????????????."

Do you SERIOUSLY believe that audio engineers (and N.B. I'm talking about audio engineers, not sound engineers in recording studios) don't critically listen to their products to 'voice' them and optimise them!

"???? Here, I really don't know what you mean,one thing I know,.....you DON'T talk about the Tune Method."

If you don't know what I mean, how can you know I'm not talking about the "Tune Method"

For explanation, to tune my amp designs, after mathematical modelling, before building, I looked at the design and asked what are the potential weak points and how much will it cost to improve them.  Some could be clearly be improved cheaply, and those I did on the first build.

Then I built the first prototype.  I listened and changed a few components to get the overall sound right.
OK now it sounds generally right, the balance is there and no obvious flaws. Then I listened more critically

Can I hear all the parts in the music?
Can I follow all the counterpointed themes?
No...

Change the signal capacitors.

Can I hear all the parts in the music?
Can I follow all the counterpointed themes?
No... but better

Change the bypass capacitors.

Can I hear all the parts in the music?
Can I follow all the counterpointed themes?
No... but better

Change the two main signal capacitors again (this time for Sidereal caps)

Can I hear all the parts in the music?
Can I follow all the counterpointed themes?
No but a lot better...

Does it become more congested at higher volume
Yes...

Add additional bypass capacitors, strengthen the ground plane and star earth point, then add protection against ultrasonics transients latching the driver transistors.
That sounds cleaner (probably less transient IMD at higher levels).

Can I hear all the parts in the music?
Can I follow all the counterpointed themes?
Yes mostly...  Ok now we're getting somewhere.

What's left... A bit more dynamic sound would be good.

Change the Transformers & reservoir capacitors (Elna Cerafine) and add additional PSU bypass capacitors

That's pretty good well balanced, engaging and musical.

Can I hear all the parts in the music?
Can I follow all the counterpointed themes?
Yes...  Ok So the better PSU and PSU bypasses were a good move, lets try bypasses specifically on the first stage

No change.

Well we seem to have got there.

One more thing, change the internal cables.

Can I hear all the parts in the music?
Can I follow all the counterpointed themes?
Yes, and with better tonal differentiation, so that's worthwhile.
Does it still sound well balanced, engaging and musical?
Yes...   Finished

Exactly what Linn reinvented as the "Tune Method" and a normal sequence of events for audio component optimisation by audio engineers.

Managed to get a good deal on three Cisco 2960s last week. Network currently looks like NAS/Chord C-Stream/ TP-Link switch/CAT6/TP-Link switch/Chord C-Stream/NDX. Not sure if the switch closest to the NAS has any bearing on the other end but they weren't expensive so figured I'd snap up two and buy the third as a spare. Won't hook them up for another week or two but will report back when the time comes...

French Rooster posted:

it is curious that a member invests so much energy to defend a product, the cisco 2960...and is posting comments only on this component.....perhaps some personal financial interests are concerned ?

It is strange but I don't see how financial interests can be the factor when they're being bought second hand.  I can't imagine a few dozen Naim enthusiasts spending £50 on an auction site would drive the share price up.

Just dropped the two 2960s in place of TP-Links. Factory reset worked without issue and they both jumped into life in the network no problem. Re sound quality, I do think I can hear a difference. Actually I think the difference is quite obvious, but it's not necessarily the change I was expecting. In short I'm hearing a more Naim-like sound, that is, tighter and more accurate... PRAT I guess. It definitely has that infectious sense of life that makes Naim so fun but I think it is also brighter and this I'm not so sure I'm keen on. Perhaps simply a case of the NDX now revealing more of it's true character, I'm not sure. Reminds me a bit of the CDX... what was it? The "glasscutter"? A friend had one I listened to a lot... certainly kept you on the edge of your seat, but could be magic at times.

Bunny Colvin posted:

Just dropped the two 2960s in place of TP-Links. Factory reset worked without issue and they both jumped into life in the network no problem. Re sound quality, I do think I can hear a difference. Actually I think the difference is quite obvious, but it's not necessarily the change I was expecting. In short I'm hearing a more Naim-like sound, that is, tighter and more accurate... PRAT I guess. It definitely has that infectious sense of life that makes Naim so fun but I think it is also brighter and this I'm not so sure I'm keen on. Perhaps simply a case of the NDX now revealing more of it's true character, I'm not sure. Reminds me a bit of the CDX... what was it? The "glasscutter"? A friend had one I listened to a lot... certainly kept you on the edge of your seat, but could be magic at times.

Agreed with your assessment, it is clearly evident on some albums such as Bitches Brew, The Shape of Jazz to Come, etc.

Bryce Curdy posted:

French Rooster posted:

it is curious that a member invests so much energy to defend a product, the cisco 2960...and is posting comments only on this component.....perhaps some personal financial interests are concerned ?

It is strange but I don't see how financial interests can be the factor when they're being bought second hand.  I can't imagine a few dozen Naim enthusiasts spending £50 on an auction site would drive the share price up.

you can buy hundreds second hand and sell them with a bigger price....