Naim App

sjbabbey posted:

Mike, thanks for responding to Clive's query. I would have to go back to page 15 of the NDS manual for the instructions.

Steve

Hi Steve,  I've deleted my post,  it was your question & I'm making it too many cooks so I'll back off

OK lets start again (with apologies to Mike B).

You need to connect a 3.5mm jack cable from one of the 2 Remote Outs on the back of the NDS to the RC5 input on the 552. You will need an adapter to do this (mine was supplied by my local naim dealer). Page 15 Section 4.9 of the NDS manual describes the setup procedure for Systems Automation but basically you use the NDS remote (spanner icon) to enter the settings menu and select systems automation. Once there select Preamp and Enable it.

sjbabbey posted:

OK lets start again (with apologies to Mike B).

You need to connect a 3.5mm jack cable from one of the 2 Remote Outs on the back of the NDS to the RC5 input on the 552. You will need an adapter to do this (mine was supplied by my local naim dealer). Page 15 Section 4.9 of the NDS manual describes the setup procedure for Systems Automation but basically you use the NDS remote (spanner icon) to enter the settings menu and select systems automation. Once there select Preamp and Enable it.

Thanks, Steve and Mike. I've had a look in the manual and found the relevant page. It looks quite interesting, although I wonder what price the adapter will cost from a naim dealer. Anyway, it might be interesting to pursue as it could lead to a reduction in remote controls - currently I have four naim remote control units, three of which are in my listening room, the fourth being in the study with the NS01.

Clive B posted:

sjbabbey posted:

OK lets start again (with apologies to Mike B).

You need to connect a 3.5mm jack cable from one of the 2 Remote Outs on the back of the NDS to the RC5 input on the 552. You will need an adapter to do this (mine was supplied by my local naim dealer). Page 15 Section 4.9 of the NDS manual describes the setup procedure for Systems Automation but basically you use the NDS remote (spanner icon) to enter the settings menu and select systems automation. Once there select Preamp and Enable it.

Thanks, Steve and Mike. I've had a look in the manual and found the relevant page. It looks quite interesting, although I wonder what price the adapter will cost from a naim dealer. Anyway, it might be interesting to pursue as it could lead to a reduction in remote controls - currently I have four naim remote control units, three of which are in my listening room, the fourth being in the study with the NS01.

My dealer gave me a suitable cable for system automation when I bought my 282. They are very cheap. I subsequently changed it for a shorter one to neaten up the cable dressing, for the princely sum of 65p from an online retailer called Kenable. Do a Google search for:

3.5mm Mono Jack Plug To Single RCA Phono Plug Cable 0.5m 50cm (MSR-008245)

...and you'll find it. This is a 0.5m one, they do longer lengths too. 

ChrisSU posted:

Clive B posted:

sjbabbey posted:

OK lets start again (with apologies to Mike B).

You need to connect a 3.5mm jack cable from one of the 2 Remote Outs on the back of the NDS to the RC5 input on the 552. You will need an adapter to do this (mine was supplied by my local naim dealer). Page 15 Section 4.9 of the NDS manual describes the setup procedure for Systems Automation but basically you use the NDS remote (spanner icon) to enter the settings menu and select systems automation. Once there select Preamp and Enable it.

Thanks, Steve and Mike. I've had a look in the manual and found the relevant page. It looks quite interesting, although I wonder what price the adapter will cost from a naim dealer. Anyway, it might be interesting to pursue as it could lead to a reduction in remote controls - currently I have four naim remote control units, three of which are in my listening room, the fourth being in the study with the NS01.

My dealer gave me a suitable cable for system automation when I bought my 282. They are very cheap. I subsequently changed it for a shorter one to neaten up the cable dressing, for the princely sum of 65p from an online retailer called Kenable. Do a Google search for:

3.5mm Mono Jack Plug To Single RCA Phono Plug Cable 0.5m 50cm (MSR-008245)

...and you'll find it. This is a 0.5m one, they do longer lengths too. 

 

Perfect, thanks Chris. I'll have a go.

Huge posted:

V2.6 is the fourth attempt to fix a simple problem with the use of the network (sockets) interface.  When I worked as a systems designer / consultant, I frequently used to see these exact symptoms in applications written by naive coders; to fail to fix it in four attempts is incompetence.

Here's my latest feedback to the Android development team (I stopped being nice to them after telling them how to fix it and being ignored - twice, six months and two versions apart!).

"V2.6 yet another failed attempt at a simple programming task; obviously not a clue how to use a sockets network interface.

still won't find the media server on waking from sleep 4 attempts to fix this simple problem and all failed - complete incompetence, especially as I've already told you what the fix is."

Huge

I'm working as a software designer / consultant as you did. Probably different area though - I mostly do webservice related stuff these days.

However I do not qualify myself 'incompetent', I do fail on fixing issues four attempts in a row too - I am having such a project this very day - I don't like this work and even if it is fixed brilliantly the customer will probably pay the bill but not even say 'thank you'. This always happens on the same kind of projects: big legacy, no documentation, limited understanding at the owner of the software - my customer.

I can imagine how this happened at Naim - but I don't have information so I'm purely speculating here. Naim had some streaming initiatives in the past - way before I discovered Naim and as far as I know, many of them are still supported. Guys actually coding things in Apps are relatively young and simply can't judge the total implication of a change. And that is difficult these days. The apps must support the same functionality on iOS and Android - and also the operation via Remote Control and the buttons on the Streamers should not be forgotten.

Such a complex application - I have designed one a few years ago but was discontinued since all financial information (4 billion usd on a yearly basis) was visible and this was a too big security thread - needs a strong architecture. This is relatively easy when a new initiative is started, but not when there is already a load of functionality / code in use. Separation of duties comes to my mind.

In these situations, a difficult transition must be made and this requires one (small, not large!) team, on one place. No offshoring.

By the way, I have insulted many people in the past by calling them 'incompetent' (I'm Dutch, have no problems to do so, pretty shameless). I would not do that to youngsters anymore since they really can't help. They have been asked to do something by some manager. On this manager we can apply the word 'incompetent'.

Ardbeg10y

Hi Ardbeg10y,

Yes indeed I accept a lot of what you say, but for the fact that, firstly the Naim app really is not that complex and, secondly, the worst fault (functionally fatal to one of the basic and primary functions of the code) occurs in a simple piece of code controlling the network connection state (the sockets object) and synchronisation of this to the display refresh (via the document/view model).  Both of these are quite simple, really basic programming elements common to all applications that use network resources.

Incidentally the remote control and front panel function entirely independently of the app, they programme the UPnP AV control point in the streamer hardware.  Even the playlist has only very limited interaction with the app.  The only interaction comes when the app reads the state of the streamer hardware from that control point - including the contents of the playlist - and displays that and the state from the volume control and current play item; or when the app loads a new playlist into the streamer's control point (overwriting what was there previously).

Maybe worth differentiating & noting that the iOS app seems to be operating pretty well trouble free compared to the Android app   

My iOS is practically fault free, never fails to find rooms etc.   That said I expect there are some iOS users with more 'complex'  LAN & wireless setups that could have problems

I disagree with you Mike-B. 

The iOS app is also a nightmare to use. Used through my Iphone 8 Plus, Ipad 4 mini, or Ipod toch 4 (yes, my whole home and mobile devices environment are Apple) and the same glitches accross all the devices. I have the same issues as described above: the app simply don't want to reconnect to my Synologly NAS. 

Very annoying, and even tiring and a real pain on the ars* when you do have to kill the app, launch it again and wait for 5 long minutes or even more for the app to reconnect and wake the NAS from sleep. 

This is even more annoying when my entire (16TB of music and counting) library has to be discovered by the streamer and the app. If I want to play my library in random mode I can't as it is possible on the legacy UQ2 (using the remote control dedicated button). Playing music in shuffle mode is limited to x numbers of tracks not possible for the entire library. 

OK Bouba I hear ya,  I am not so presumption as to disagree with your findings of your iOS devices set up on your system.    Like I said in my post,  on my system iOS is practically fault free, never fails to find rooms etc. & having gone through a significant number of beta apps,  that has not always been the case.     I also said that I expect there are some iOS users with more 'complex'  LAN & wireless setups that could have problems,  so I suspect some of your problem might be in your network rather than in the app, but  it does sound like you have a 'Discovery' problem & I know that Naim are working on that.      And finally I also have an Android phone & my post earlier is actually based on comparing that with my iOS,  it's not a complete failure but I prefer not to use it.

Bouba posted:

I disagree with you Mike-B. 

The iOS app is also a nightmare to use. Used through my Iphone 8 Plus, Ipad 4 mini, or Ipod toch 4 (yes, my whole home and mobile devices environment are Apple) and the same glitches accross all the devices. I have the same issues as described above: the app simply don't want to reconnect to my Synologly NAS. 

Very annoying, and even tiring and a real pain on the ars* when you do have to kill the app, launch it again and wait for 5 long minutes or even more for the app to reconnect and wake the NAS from sleep. 

This is even more annoying when my entire (16TB of music and counting) library has to be discovered by the streamer and the app. If I want to play my library in random mode I can't as it is possible on the legacy UQ2 (using the remote control dedicated button). Playing music in shuffle mode is limited to x numbers of tracks not possible for the entire library. 

 

OK, in my case detecting the 272 is reliable and not too slow (2-4s), but detecting the Media Server is a nightmare (about 20% success rate with no timeout), despite not letting the NAS and Media Server sleep (the disk sleeps itself, but wakes to read in <2s).

If you're having trouble detecting the streamer, have you tried giving it a fixed IP address (on the local subnet but outside your network's DHCP range), then manually adding a 'Room' in the Naim app.  This should take the UPnP AV discovery (the initial SSDP call) out of the loop for the streamer.

Last thing: indexing and randomly selecting a single track from 16Tb is asking a lot from an app on a toy OS like iOS or Android, on the other hand it's not actually beyond the wit of man (or even me) to work out a way to do it, but the initial load of the data will be very slow.

BTW I have just today received contact from someone at Naim support, so the light may be the end of the tunnel rather than the proverbial train (I find 2.6 is actually worse than 2.4 or 2.5).

Just to add a different perspective - I use the Android app and it never fails to find my Nova or connect to any of my 3 upnp servers including the one on my NAS. The Android app works fine here.

Hi Pev, I've shown at least some of the problems to be down to race errors (i.e. timing errors of internal processes in the app, or the combinaton of internal and external processes), so it depends on the speed of your portable devices and also how that relates to the latency and response time of the other components on your network.  As these timings and latencies are dependant on various elements in the network, it's entirely expected that some people won't have any trouble, some will have occasional trouble and some will get trouble most of the time.  Without very detailed analysis in a number of different networks and network topologies it's not possible to say precisely what combination of components and topology will guarantee success.

Hi Huge, not doubting you or others who have problems.

There does seem to be lot of negativity at the moment on the forum to the point where people are discouraged from even trying some products. They can work well and it's the dealer's job to make sure they do perform in the purchaser's home. Make them earn their mark up!

The problem is that although the errors are fundamental to the app, they are affected in an unpredictable manner by all the components in the rest of the network .

The dealer won't be able to guess which particular combinations of network components will work with which Android devices and which versions of the Naim app (and even then it can all change when Naim release a new version of the app!).

I'm actually pleased that most other people don't have quite the problems I've been having with all versions of the app after 2.2.

David O'Higgins posted:

Boris786 posted:

I have a new Naim Nova, having come over from Linn. While I am pleased with the sound I am concerned over the (Android) app.

It regularly falls over and just circles. This does sort itself out and I can live with it. But it regularly loses my NAS - when I select the servers button there is nothing there.

The next/day hour servers appear and it works.

I can always use Roon and Media Monkey happily and without issue. And previously my Linn setup had very few issues over three years of use.

I have spoken to tech support at Naim: they have advised me to check on my network and await the updated android app, which apparently should appear in few weeks along with a firmware update.

But does anyone else have any ideas?

 

Why not just stick with Roon? So much better...

My setup is not adequate and I am not spending more just yet esp as I am streaming with Qobuz.

Really took trial to test things out. On the plus side I think I have seen a bit of an improvement in reliability.

As far as I can tell part of my issue might be accessing the NAS through Naim app on more than one device at a time but L might be '''seeing things'.

My dealer has been out to me but is as mystified as I am. Everything works fine in his showroom apparently  I know that from when I 'demoed' the Nova :-)

Did you use your own device to control the streamer at your dealers? I would hazard a guess that the issue might be your (Android?) device vs. his iPad. 

Naim have confirmed that they are well aware of various deficiencies in the Naim app, particularly discovery of the Media Server by the Android app, and are actively working on a solution to this.  They also acknowledge that the Andoid app simply isn't good enough overall and are making effort - including recruiting new staff - to improve the quality.

They now realise that the app is an integral part of the system and that the quality and reliability have to improve.

For 3-4 months I had no problems with the app's connection to the ND5SX and my NAS server (running Minimserver). 

But since 1-2 months I once again suffer from the app loosing connection to the ND5SX , saying "No rooms found" when I close and restart the app. The problem is that the app doesn't find the ND5SX - with app and ND5XS connected it only rarely, if ever, has been a problem finding the NAS/Minimserver. 

The drop of the connection can happen anytime, even while I'm using the app. Closing the app and restarting it doesn't help. Shutting down router does, I think, and pressing Pause and then Play on the physical remote usually does as well. 

There has been no changes to my network in this period (from when it worked reliably 99+% of the time to now when I have connection problems regularly). The app however was auto updated to 5.9. (I think it was) just about when the instability started again. 

I have mentioned this here before. I do hope that Naim will provide their customers/users with an app less sensitive to whatever it is that triggers the dropouts and prohibits reconnecting simply by restarting the app when it does fail. 

Claus

ChrisSU posted:

Did you use your own device to control the streamer at your dealers? I would hazard a guess that the issue might be your (Android?) device vs. his iPad. 

Yes thinking about it I am sure he did. Note to self is obvious.....

Let us hope improvements arrive before too long.

Paul

I find it odd people say Android is the issue, I have both and at the moment my iPad can't even find a room, I switch to android to get going and can then use the iPad.

Still painfully slow on both o/s.

Obsydian posted:

I find it odd people say Android is the issue, I have both and at the moment my iPad can't even find a room, I switch to android to get going and can then use the iPad.

Still painfully slow on both o/s.

Oddly enough, I find it odd that you’d say this. I recently changed from a Nexus 6p - so a flagship-level device of its time, and totally stock Android - to an iPhone 8+.

The difference in how well the Naim app works is remarkable. No reconnection issues, no crashes when resuming the app, nothing - it just works. I now feel like I have the app I should have had all along.

It’s completely unacceptable for the answer to app woes to be to change to a different OS, but the iPhone app is definitely superior IME.