Anyone regret DRing a 500 ??

I do hope there are no regrets from anyone as my 500 is currently away being DR'd!

I've recently had both a 555DRPS and 552DRPS on loan and would say the effect on my system was the opposite of what you report. Everything just got more real with far better timing, imaging and timbre. And that was straight from cold.

One thing I have learnt is that a better piece of kit can sometimes reveal or highlight weakness elsewhere in the system and it can take time to find the cause. Very rarely is the Naim higherachy broken.

Be aware that the DR power amps are very much different components. Better/worse is not really the issue (they are better) so much as system synergy. Many on the forum, myself included, DRed a Naim amp with mixed results. 

Put simply, would you buy a power amp on a punt without demoing it with your speakers? (the answer is yes for those in remote locations). Presumably, you carefully chose your speakers to match your amp or vice versa. DRing effectively changes the amp for another one that happens to look the same but is different. Since Naim amps work well with so many speakers, the odds are in your favor.  

When I DRed a 250 the result was really dissapointing and it did not improve over time. I happened to be getting new speakers anyway and the new ones just had amazing synergy with the DR amp so the story ended happily. Had I not been getting new speakers anyway, I would have been either forced to lump it; search for an old 250.2 to downgrade back to; or bought new speakers I had not planned on.

So a 250DR/300DR/500DR is not the same as a 250/300/500 but a bit better. You need to think of them as totally different amps.

I hope DRing the 500 goes well for you. It probably will and you'll be delighted. Just don't expect it to sound like the current 500.

Mike

on same point - had my 300 DR just over a month ago

I loved the soft musical rythem of the non DR 300, base mid focus combined with brilliant seperation

my DR 300 does everyhting a non DR does but in a better way, it does take a few weeks to kick in fully but when it does......

as I have said on prev posts the 300 was the single biggest upgrade I have added to my system and the DR has given even more music focus and enjoyment to the experience

I would have sent the dr 250 back to Naim to be checked if it didn’t hit the spot. My dr 500’s sound great fwiw.

Paul Stephenson posted:

I would have sent the dr 250 back to Naim to be checked if it didn’t hit the spot.

I appreciate the comment [@mention:1566878603868476]. But, easier said than done when each trip it makes to the UK costs GBP1100 just in combined shipping and HMRS tax (they care not that it was bought in the UK and had all the paperwork).  I currently have no idea how to address recapping 5 or so years from now - but that's my problem I guess for willingly buying Naim to use in a country with no classic range distributor or service centre. I live in hope that Naim will have come back to Japan proper by then.

It clearly didn't sound like it had a problem - it just did not sound anywhere as good with the same speakers. In hindsight it showed up a flaw in their sound. I think it goes without saying, no matter how good any component is, it has to work in the context of the whole system. I'm not the only person who did not initially get on with a perfectly working DR model.

However, in the current system, it sends shivers down my spine. I've said before, last time a system did this for me it was an active one. I'll also repeat that I think the OP's odds are stacked statistically in his favor.

my 250 DR sounded great out of the box 

I tried 250.2 in my system, but 250 DR was clearly so much better.

No regrets at all! I have DR on NDS + 2x555, 552 and 500. I did the 500 DR upgrade at the same time as a service. Excellent results but I am also using Superlumina throughout and have Ovator 400s so Naim synergy all the way. For me DR was like the difference you get when adding or upgrading a power supply.

I'm waiting for the DR kit being delivered in a few weeks  at Lasa service centre . Other clients who already did it are really enthusiastic.

Paul, nice to see you on the forum again, Happy Easter btw.

Roberto

Paul Stephenson posted:

I would have sent the dr 250 back to Naim to be checked if it didn’t hit the spot. My dr 500’s sound great fwiw.

Since my comments started the OP's worry, I should reply that the 250DR in my case was a dealer's unit - there was nothing wrong with it.

Feeling Zen is just correct that it's about how the whole system works together rather than whether each component is great.

I still don't understand the comments, my 250 DR was an instant upgrade for me, completely much better than the 250.2

puzzled.

Also I found it works great with NACA5. No urgent need for SL (Although SL is a better speaker cable)

feeling_zen posted:

Paul Stephenson posted:

I would have sent the dr 250 back to Naim to be checked if it didn’t hit the spot.

 

It clearly didn't sound like it had a problem - it just did not sound anywhere as good with the same speakers. In hindsight it showed up a flaw in their sound. I think it goes without saying, no matter how good any component is, it has to work in the context of the whole system. 

However, in the current system, it sends shivers down my spine. I've said before, last time a system did this for me it was an active one. I'll also repeat that I think the OP's odds are stacked statistically in his favor.

 

I think the issue is that the DR amps have more extended bandwidth, especially in the bass, so if the speakers can't handle the extra bass, well that could be an issue, but that is not the fault of the DR amps as you agreed.

Maybe some speakers were tuned to work well with a Non-DR amp?

Yep for me dr was a big upgrade .... however, on my speakers it did increase bass response significantly...the dr500 has allot more punch and drive ....so I had to reposition speakers other than that it was a win win.

Dave***t posted:

Feeling Zen is just correct that it's about how the whole system works together rather than whether each component is great.

 I think most people are missing the point of our original contributions.

Your reply to my post that attempted to guide somebody away from DR'ing without audition was never critical of the 250DR. Merely, as you, Zen and I are pointing out is it is so radically different to a 250.2 it can upset the system balance and result in a less satisfying experience,

Paul.

I’ve been the lucky recipient of Naim’s demo 552DR (thank you Naim) for the last 3 weeks and 2 days. Sadly my dealer is collecting it tomorrow. We then add Fraim glass, cups, bearings and seats (£100/ shelf) to the brain boxes and the TT, and then back to lesser preamps for a period of reflection!

Getting to the point: I spent the last two weeks of the running in with a spare Powerline on my 300DR, and while at first the SQ was ok and the 552 improvements as it warmed up were clear, the beauty from some music diminished (early Genesis). I’ve just reverted to the PL Lite and wow!

Whilst DRing a 500 may alter a system in a negative way, in my experience the mains power cord is a good way to deal with such matters. There may be a need to employ other methods. I say this having full SL loom. I can’t see any reason why speakers should need changing unless they don’t do the the boxes credit.

Of course when I add the glass things may change and the Powerline may improve things further. That is the nature of this hobby of ours! 

Phil

PS

I ran the 552DR with its Powerline. 

"One thing I have learnt is that a better piece of kit can sometimes reveal or highlight weakness elsewhere in the system and it can take time to find the cause. Very rarely is the Naim higherachy broken."

Wise words, Geko.

DR'ing a 500 is the biggest DR step-up I've heard - and own. One effectively gets a new amplifier. Admittedly a different one, and with my impartial hat jammed firmly on my head, I think the problem for some might be that DR 500 moves (sonically) further into 'New Naim' territory.

I love it to bits and hear only positive attributes.

John.

The new Naim 500DR is indeed a 'new' Amplifier sonically, although building upon the earlier 500 strengths IMO. It is not a slight or minor upgrade that tweaks the performance but a radically altered Amplifier - and IMO a far better performer.

Both the non-DR 500 and 500DR have, from my personal experience running them three-way Active, a big run-in requirement where they sound very rough for about 3 weeks, when ok after that, then rather magical after 3 months when you realise why you spent the money.

If you compared a well run-in old 500 against a new 500DR with less than a month of use I'd prefer the old 500 - to be clear in how I mean the run-in changes performance.

Once the 500DR is run-in and working right then it presents a fuller more 'lush' musical image with much quieter perceived noise-floor and greater detail-retrieval especially at the frequency extremes, but very pleasantly in the voice-band too.  If you enjoy female vocalists then the 500DR is far better in revealing subtleties in vocalisation and inflection in a very natural and engaging way - it makes the old 500 by comparison sound rough and veiled.

The bass performance of the 500DR is far more powerful and goes deeper in presenting clearer better-defined notes and harmonic-structures; you hear the 'gaps' between notes that were before filled-in with noisy-mush. The LF phase is also presented better, in that large kettle-drum hits create a wave of air in the room that are at first frightening (for me) if you are not used to hearing the wavefront without phase-distortion. In fact much of the improvement in LF weight and note-clarity is that the harmonics are presented in the correct phase - as well as lower background distortion and noise.

In short it is a far better Amp.

But it will put more demands on system build, source, speakers and the like. There is more bass energy and you may need to look at speaker placement and speaker cables a bit more. As good a NACA5 is I think the SL speaker cables are more seamless and neutral especially in the bass - they were designed for the Statement Amp and the 500DR is in or approaching that performance league IMO.

DB.

Yes. I too think there is something in this argument about a DR'ed component not being 'liked' because it exposes a weakness elsewhere in the system that was previously hidden.  

My first experience of DR was when I tried a 555PSDR as an upgrade PSU on my nDAC, at the time powered by an XP5XS.  My amp then was 282/SC/250.2.   At the time couldn't get on with the 555PSDR. While clearly delivering much more detail, the bass become too much on some heavy-duty music and the top-end took on something of a hard edge.  I tried a pre-loved non-DR 555PS and instantly preferred it. The experience left me a bit uncertain about the DR technology. I later tried 300DR in place of my 250.2 and loved it. I also DR'ed my Supercap and that was a plus.  Meanwhile other improvements had been introduced like full loom SL, PLs, upgrades to the racks.    

Later still when I demoed at home a 552DR I felt something was missing from what I had heard from the in-store demo.  It turned out that the difference was the 555PS - the in-store one was DR, mine was non-DR. When my dealer brought round the 555PSDR this time its merits over the non-DR 555PS were clear. I immediately ordered a DRing of mine.

So, as well as concluding that there is some synergy to be gained when there is more than one DR component in the system, my experience told me that first time around that 555PSDR on the nDAC was pushing through more information than the rest of my then system could competently handle. I didn't like the end result and concluded that the non-DR 555PS sounded better. In terms of achieving an optimal balance in my then system, it was 'better' but the non-DR 555PS was masking a weakness. Improving the rest of the system's capabilities later enabled the 555PSDR to show what it was really capable of.  Naim had got it right - the DR version was superior. 

I fully agree with Darke Bear. The DR effect on the 500 is completely positive. It’s one of those ‘whole new music collection’ changes, but it does take months to settle in.

No.

J.N. posted:

“DR'ing a 500 is the biggest DR step-up I've heard - and own. One effectively gets a new amplifier. Admittedly a different one, and with my impartial hat jammed firmly on my head, I think the problem for some might be that DR 500 moves (sonically) further into 'New Naim' territory.“

 

Mike, lots of great, informative replies above. I’ve quoted JN because it rhymes with my thoughts too. Fact is that the ‘New Naim’ sound as typified by DR products shares some similarities with the old sound, but is also quite a bit different - almost a different brand in some ways. Some people simply prefer the old sound. Given your immaculate taste in speakers  I doubt you are amongst them, but easiest way to check would be to borrow a 500DR from your dealer. The power amp it’s generally agreed shows the DR effect most obviously, so if you try that and see what you think it’ll give you a steer on DR effect for all components. Are you able to borrow one?

As a fellow Shahinian junkie I found DRing my 500 last year gave my system a substantial  uplift. Obvious in HiFi areas like speed, detail, dynamics, range etc.. but much more importantly in the way it makes better, more communicative music. If Piano and Chamber Music is your bag you’ll get nothing less than a transformation.

Thanks everyone for your comments. Thanks Kevin C  and DB in particular  who addressed my principal concern with his comment (my emphasis in bold):

"greater detail-retrieval especially at the frequency extremes, but very pleasantly in the voice-band too.  If you enjoy female vocalists then the 500DR is far better in revealing subtleties in vocalisation and inflection in a very natural and engaging way - it makes the old 500 by comparison sound rough and veiled"

In the demo I mentioned, the increase in bass detail, dynamism and control was readily apparent, my concern was in particular about the mid-range voicing and nuance of tone, which was somewhat lacking and if anything was slightly more "old" rather than "new" Naim,. From posts here it sounds as if my initial thoughts were maybe on track that that the amp maybe needed more time to settle in despite what the Naim rep assured me.

Everybody will tell you DRing NAP500 is a huge upgrade, because it is. You can’t go wrong there. It’s the important DR upgrade you can do of them all IMHO. 

//Jonas

Most

I am getting very close to my new 500DR arriving, and it will complete my active 500 setup (with DBLs).  The other two 500 amps have yet to be DR’d, so the question I have to decide - what to DR (Hi/Med/Low)?  At the moment, I am thinking the Med - which will add a lot as I would be switching out a 300.  But is this the frequency that will suit DR the best?

In time, I am sure to have the others serviced/DR’d, but this will not be for some time...

Med first.....then bass....would be my bet. ..