Roon

The Roon app on my desktop shows me that it has access to 4445 albums, so it must have indexed everything on my iMac, as well as on my Core.  It must be thru UPnP.  I also have digital out from the Core attached to my Dave DAC.  Currently I'm playing Blue Maqams by Anouar Brahem.  Honestly, I haven't heard my system sound this good.

Roon is great but expensive - there are many previous threads on this forum - search is your friend.

Pev posted:

Roon is great but expensive - there are many previous threads on this forum 

Including another current one started only a week ago with the same title!

As Pev hinted, it is best to do some searching before opening a thread like this, as you can often find out a lot, and people don’t always want to waste time repeating themselves...

Doc

i moved to Roon about 10 days ago. Very positive experience overall. 

Rob

Hi IB & Pev - yes, I should search more and ask less.  With regard to Roon quality, though, I must say that I am blown away!

No probs Docmark.

I have read various suggestions that when used as a renderer Roon’s sound quality is a limiting factor, so may be better used Roon with a compatible renderer thus purely using its library and associated functions. When I trialled it I didn’t compare its sound quality with the excellent Audirvana, because I ended up rejecting it for other reasons (not having any interest in Tidal that integration was a nuisance not the benefit a Tidal user would find it, and with an inherent dislike of so-called ‘’social media’ I found its tendency that way also to be annoying, whereas the opposite may apply to an avid social mediaphile).

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a renderer?  And like you, I am not an avid social mediaphile.

The renderer is the stage that ocnverts the audio file (e.g. .flac, .wav, .mp3 taken from your storage medium, or equivalent streamed to you over the internet from a remote source, and converts it into a digital music stream that is fed real-time into the DAC.

Naim ‘streamers’ such as ND5XS, NDX and NDS incorporate a renepderer stage and a DAC. When fed from a NAS or other store, or linking to Spotify or Tidal, the renderer does its bit, going into the internal DAC - or a digital output (e.g. spdif) can take the output of the renderer into an external DAC.

Stores like Melco and Nam Uniti Core have inbuilt renderers, which come into play if their USB or SPDIF (as appropriate) outputs are fed to a DAC, as opposed to connecting by ethernet to a ‘streamer’.

Computer audio stages include renderers, enabling audio to be go to internal DACS and feen intrnal speakers, or to feed the digital music stream via spdif, USB or optical to an external DAC - however general purpose computers do not have audiophile grade audio stages. There are a variety of third party renderers that can be put on computers, designed for audiophile use (of which one of the best in terms of sound quality is Audirvana, with its ability  to bypass all the computer’s own audio hardware and software).

Roon installed on a computer can perform the rendering function, outputting direct to a DAC via USB. Roon can also be used in a mode that feeds the audio files to an external renderer.

Err, close but not quite...

I think I've got this right, so here goes...

The control point is the UI used to select the media item (usually in a file) to play, it displays the metadata, and when you select something and tell it to play that item, it gets the ID that the Media Server uses to identify the item.

If the system works in push mode with a Media Player, the Control Point sends the ID of the item to the Media Server which then sends the data stream to the Media Player, which then plays it (i.e. it displays a video or plays the music in the data stream).

If the system works in pull mode with a Media Renderer and a Media Player, the Control Point sends the ID of the item to the Media Renderer which then requests the data stream from the Media Server (using the ID passed by the Control Point), when it gets the data stream it passes it (i.e. renders it) to the Media Player which plays it.

The Media Renderer controls a DLNA data stream sent to the Media Player, rather than outputting S/Pdif or HDMI (that data conversion is done by the player).

I’ve seen the comment that SQ of Roon is somehow compromised repeated a few times now and I don’t agree.  I went from JRiver to Roon and felt there was a small SQ improvement (alongside a massive improvement in usability and stability).  Adding a microrendu improved clarity, separation and tangibility but I suspect the dedicated MRU is preventing electrical and RF noise entering the DAC.  I also suspect all other music software would sound better run through a device optimised for audio playback immediately before the DAC, rather than directly from a noisy computer.

Hi IB & Huge - thanks for the explanations.  So, in my case, is the Roon app on my iMac getting/controlling data from my Core over Ethernet, and from there to my Dave?  It’s identified as an audio device in the Roon settings.

If you do go for a Roon license, then try running Roon ROCK on a dedicated low power NUC server as the sound gets even better. I’m using a 7i5BNH with 8gb ram and a 256gb SSD drive (one really only needs a 32 or 64gb but easier to find one with a 256gb these days) with a Chinese 12v 5a r-core linear power supply. Local music resides on a 1tb 2.5” OWC portable hard drive plugged into the NUC and powered via usb. It sounds better than running Roon on my 2013 Mac Pro. 

How it works is the Roon server software (Core or ROCK) accesses music stored somewhere on your network, pulls that, creates a stand-alone database on the pc you have it on, and then feeds it to a player. You can tell Roon to use the existing metadata or create it’s own (my suggestion). The player/renderer needs to have RAAT (i.e be Roon ready) as Roon doesn’t use upnp or dina. Roon Remote is what allows one to access, view and control the database, and it can reside on a tablet, phone, laptop, or pc. Roon Core or ROCK (their standalone linux software) can output via usb, coax, or ethernet, so long as the endpoint it is going into is Roon ready. Sonore have cleverly created Bridge for their sonictransporter software which allows for squeezebox upnp emulation that can stream Roon to any upnp device - it’s how I get Roon to my UQ version 1 in my office, via my microRendu upstairs attached to my DAC V1. Works great. 

I wasn't aware that any of my gear was Roon Ready, yet here I am using the Roon app on my iMac to play files through to my DAC and into my 272.  However it is accomplishing that, I'm just glad it works.

charlesphoto posted:

If you do go for a Roon license, then try running Roon ROCK on a dedicated low power NUC server as the sound gets even better. I’m using a 7i5BNH with 8gb ram and a 256gb SSD drive (one really only needs a 32 or 64gb but easier to find one with a 256gb these days) with a Chinese 12v 5a r-core linear power supply. Local music resides on a 1tb 2.5” OWC portable hard drive plugged into the NUC and powered via usb. It sounds better than running Roon on my 2013 Mac Pro. 

Ah, so the negative comments about Roon’s sound quality when used as a renderer compared to some alternatives such as Audirvana probably relate to use on a standard computer: a fundamental strength of Audirvana is its ‘direct mode’ whereby it bypasses all of the Mac’s own audio circuitry and normal audio drivers.

(And of course as with all computer sources, the more so the with those not optimised for audio, isolation of RF may be a significant factor when used with any DAC that does not incorporate its own, such as Hugo.)

I've never been able to understand the (relatively few) adverse comments about Roon sound quality in comparison with other methods. It's a bit-perfect delivery system so it shouldn't have any 'sound' at all. Then again, I use only networked end points which should be immune from any activity in the computer which holds the Roon Core.

Innocent Bystander posted:

charlesphoto posted:

If you do go for a Roon license, then try running Roon ROCK on a dedicated low power NUC server as the sound gets even better. I’m using a 7i5BNH with 8gb ram and a 256gb SSD drive (one really only needs a 32 or 64gb but easier to find one with a 256gb these days) with a Chinese 12v 5a r-core linear power supply. Local music resides on a 1tb 2.5” OWC portable hard drive plugged into the NUC and powered via usb. It sounds better than running Roon on my 2013 Mac Pro. 

Ah, so the negative comments about Roon’s sound quality when used as a renderer compared to some alternatives such as Audirvana probably relate to use on a standard computer: a fundamental strength of Audirvana is its ‘direct mode’ whereby it bypasses all of the Mac’s own audio circuitry and normal audio drivers.

(And of course as with all computer sources, the more so the with those not optimised for audio, isolation of RF may be a significant factor when used with any DAC that does not incorporate its own, such as Hugo.)

Roon has the same feature when using a computer as an endpoint. People will always debate that one thing sounds better than another it's the audiophile way wether there is any logic to it or not.

docmark posted:

I wasn't aware that any of my gear was Roon Ready, yet here I am using the Roon app on my iMac to play files through to my DAC and into my 272.  However it is accomplishing that, I'm just glad it works.

It only has to be Roon Ready if you want to stream to it (not using Sonore’s Bridge). Otherwise you can play direct via a computer that has the whole Roon package installed. That’s what I did initially in the office when trialing Roon - toslink out from my Mac Pro to the UQ. Sorry I didn’t make that obvious earlier. One thing I love is true ability to use a pc or laptop as a remote (vs just tablet or phone). That way I use my work desktop Mac Pro to control Roon and don’t have to have an extra iPad on the desk, like I did with the Naim app. 

 

Roon has the same feature when using a computer as an endpoint. People will always debate that one thing sounds better than another it's the audiophile way wether there is any logic to it or not.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. But I did notice a difference between running it on my multipurpose Mac Pro via toslink out or via ethernet to the living room vs a dedicated NUC that streams only. I think if there wasn’t a sound difference between servers, then no one should be paying a ridiculous premium for Naim’s Core, but there are some who say it sounds better and worth the price. Personally, I paid $340 all in for a brand new 7i5 NUC with 8gb of RAM and 256gb SSD pre-installed off of that big auction site. Bargain in hifi for a small sq bump (the linear power supply was around $175 and I had it already). Plus my Mac Pro can now dedicate all of it’s resources to those CPU hogs Lightroom and Photoshop I use daily. 

I've been looking to see if Roon could be a replacement for the wonky Naim app.

Sadly not.

Roon requires you to ditch your existing digital hardware and buy all new, even stating this in their knowledge base...
"No support for under-specced platforms or un-proven network stacks. RAAT is built to evolve over time. We continue to improve the network protocol. We might decide to change the buffer size requirements on the device to increase stability. We might decide to build a second network protocol optimized for streaming over WAN, or something else like that. We give the same advice for users of Roon as we do to manufacturers building RAAT-based products: under-specced systems lead to bad user experiences; hardware is cheaper than ever and getting cheaper all the time; don't over-economize if you want the best result."

And have no intention of supporting older hardware without unacceptable compromises e.g.

Roon core in addition to NAS (OK, I understand why but it adds noise onto the mains feed), or a ridiculously expensive Roon Core NAS.
ROON Ready Ethernet to USB adapter
USB DAC (I got a Naim system because I like the Naim sound characteristics: I don't want to be forced into having a different sound signature).
Analogue cables
Analogue input to the 272

OR use a S/Pdif system (which violates one of their design goals)

Roon core in addition to NAS (OK, I understand why but it adds noise onto the mains feed), or a ridiculously expensive Roon Core NAS.
ROON Ready Ethernet to USB adapter + USB -> S/Pdif converter OR ROON Ready Ethernet to S/Pdif adapter 
S/Pdif input to the 272 (N.B. S/Pdif violates the fourth of their design goals)

Lastly I can use UPnP AV because I can look up to ports I need to open in the firewalls in my system.  Roon fail to provide even this basic level of information about RAAT, and then reserve the right to change the protocol at will (stated as an intention in the knowledge base as shown above, and which they have indeed done changing from UDP to TCP!)
This completely destroys any confidence I may have had in the longevity of the system.

Or more simply, setup core on an existing computer or NAS and use the UPNP bridge available from small green computers and get Roon running UPNP and even set the output to WAV maintaining the recommended NAIM way to use UPNP. That seems much simpler. In use by a number of folks on here into NDS with great results. I use this config into NDX, I can’t tell the difference in this configuration between Asset. UPNP and UPNP from Roon.

The Sonore Roon Bridge has been withdrawn due to stability issues.

There is another upnp bridge software that is a LMS plugin but can run independently and does similar thing to the Sonore bridge and its free. Can be a bit fiddly but I used it to send Roon and LMS to my upnp Pure speakers I had. 

charlesphoto posted:

 

Roon has the same feature when using a computer as an endpoint. People will always debate that one thing sounds better than another it's the audiophile way wether there is any logic to it or not.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. But I did notice a difference between running it on my multipurpose Mac Pro via toslink out or via ethernet to the living room vs a dedicated NUC that streams only. I think if there wasn’t a sound difference between servers, then no one should be paying a ridiculous premium for Naim’s Core, but there are some who say it sounds better and worth the price. Personally, I paid $340 all in for a brand new 7i5 NUC with 8gb of RAM and 256gb SSD pre-installed off of that big auction site. Bargain in hifi for a small sq bump (the linear power supply was around $175 and I had it already). Plus my Mac Pro can now dedicate all of it’s resources to those CPU hogs Lightroom and Photoshop I use daily. 

I meant that Roon as the same feature to use the sound hardware exclusively on a computer rather than us the OS.

Huge posted:

The Sonore Roon Bridge has been withdrawn due to stability issues.

No it’s for sale again but not on the website, email Andrew (Small Green Computer) directly if you want one. Bût you’d be wanting to have trialled and liked Roon first. It’s not for everyone. 

It will be interesting to see what ND555 and NDX2 users do. Even Roon at lifetime membership is a small percentage of the cost of the units and cheaper than most interconnects. 

Interestingly I have a thread on the Roon forum asking what my next Roon source steps should be and Naim products feature among the suggestions 

im listening to an original Uniqute with Roon via the Sonore bridge at the moment, I really think Roon and Naim are great bedfellows. 

.sjb