4.6 update and upgrade sound quality ?

loks posted:

Thought this was worth sharing. I was hearing the same weird presentation as Ken C after the update on my NDS. There was just too much bass, both vocals and instruments were overly warm, it all sounded nice but just not as engaging as with 4.4 and definitely not a presentation I could live with. So I Just followed John's advice and did a factory reset, system still sounds different but in a far more positive way than before, the difference is definitely more subtle and the balance is back. I'd suggest if you're not happy with the sound after the update, the first thing to try would be a factory reset, it's definitely worked for me.

Interesting.  What does the factory reset do?  What settings etc. are lost (if any - I assume something goes)?  Is this likely to be a good idea to do anyway? and does this apply to NDX?

Sorry for all the questions...

Cheers

Steve

rmatosev posted:

I have an older Uniti with no 192 Khz board and according to the instructions, 4.6 update cannot be installed on it. Still, has anyone tried to do it?

What would happen if you do try? Would software just  close or you might continue and get yourself into a trouble?

The germain update howto PDF says that older devices without the 192kHz hardware do benefit from the bugfixes and optimisations, but not from the Tidal, Spotify and Multiroom enhancements. So in my understanding you can install this update on older devices, too.

http://www.music-line.biz/cms/...ter_4p6_Mac_v1p0.pdf (German)

But: You must not install this on devices with a serial number between 284579 and 297008 and its firmware version BC-SW 10198!

It would be very interesting to understand the process Naim undertakes with regard to DSP code changes and how they agree on "improvements" and a final GA release.
Presumably there is a lot of tuning and A & B comparisons and then a final sign-off. That said however it is done, it is was a good job, loving my "new" ND5-XS!

loks posted:

Jonn posted:

ken c posted:

I did my 4.6 update last Friday and as I reported then, this was quite straight fwd but I didn't have much time to listen properly then.

I managed to do this last night,

I am afraid for me it is definitely not good news. Yes, I can hear more -- but music lines just sound 'louder' to me -- the whole mix lacks subtlety and sounds somewhat 'un-balanced'. It all sounds somewhat more 'animated' and to me, the music seems to have been robbed of its emotion and warmth. Music which prior to the update would relax me now makes me anxious and the whole thing has completely lost 'that which makes me want to play it'. Yes, I can definitely hear more bass -- but it sounds completely wrong and it sounds somewhat out of time and out of tune to me -- in fact I sense 'timing' is now somewhat compromised.

This is all very surprising to me as I have never experienced what to me is a very in-naim like sound in an upgrade. And I find it very hard to believe Naim would release such an 'upgrade'.

Since some people with NDS like the upgrade -- then 2 possibilities -- (a) this is a new direction for naim streamers which I just happen not to like -- tough cheese I guess  (b) there is something wrong with my streamer (I would say this is unlikely as it sounded absolutely sublime before the upgrade)

Now a question for you learned forum members -- is it possible to roll-back this upgrade back to 4.4 and leave absolutely no trace of what to me has been a disastrous 4.6 upgrade? I hope and pray this is possible so I can have my music back... This is all very distressing to me...

many thanks

enjoy...

ken

Ken

I had the same experience (see earlier post). However I did a full factory reset, checked all the inputs and restarted. The NDS sounds fine now, much like what other people are describing following the change to 4.6. So worth doing this before reverting to 4.4.

Thought this was worth sharing. I was hearing the same weird presentation as Ken C after the update on my NDS. There was just too much bass, both vocals and instruments were overly warm, it all sounded nice but just not as engaging as with 4.4 and definitely not a presentation I could live with. So I Just followed John's advice and did a factory reset, system still sounds different but in a far more positive way than before, the difference is definitely more subtle and the balance is back. I'd suggest if you're not happy with the sound after the update, the first thing to try would be a factory reset, it's definitely worked for me.

Yes, after the update to 4.6 I did a factory reset as advised in Naim's update instructions and my NDS sounds wonderful, much improved over 4.4.

Ken, did you do a factory reset?

Sorry being a bit dim here ...... I thought the dac was fixed so what actually changes to alter sound quality??? Can the filter profiles be edited???? I can understand it with Chord DACs..... which are fully programable.....

Beachcomber posted:

loks posted:

Thought this was worth sharing. I was hearing the same weird presentation as Ken C after the update on my NDS. There was just too much bass, both vocals and instruments were overly warm, it all sounded nice but just not as engaging as with 4.4 and definitely not a presentation I could live with. So I Just followed John's advice and did a factory reset, system still sounds different but in a far more positive way than before, the difference is definitely more subtle and the balance is back. I'd suggest if you're not happy with the sound after the update, the first thing to try would be a factory reset, it's definitely worked for me.

Interesting.  What does the factory reset do?  What settings etc. are lost (if any - I assume something goes)?  Is this likely to be a good idea to do anyway? and does this apply to NDX?

Sorry for all the questions...

Cheers

Steve

It just takes your player back to the default settings. I can't explain why it's made a difference but it has IMO. The things you have to note before doing it are input settings and system automation settings, it's not essential but it does make it easier to get your streamer back to where it was before the reset. You will also lose any radio stations you added as favorites via the app, but I only listen a to a few so should be easy to restore once I've finished listening to some tunes.

I've never felt the need to do a reset before, but it does say it in the instructions so I think I'll follow them from now on :-)

Not sure if does apply to the NDX, but for me after the update my system sounded quite off, it wasn't terrible but not something I could live with, that's the only reason I tried to find a solution through the forum (thanks again John). If you're happy with the results of the update then your NDX probably doesn't need a reset, but then again there's no harm, it only took 10 -15 minutes to do.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

Loks

Richieroo posted:

Sorry being a bit dim here ...... I thought the dac was fixed so what actually changes to alter sound quality??? Can the filter profiles be edited???? I can understand it with Chord DACs..... which are fully programable.....

The DAC conversion itself is fixed (as is the following analogue circuitry), but the DAC is controlled by the Analog Devices DSP (which also controls the oversampling), and that is programmable.

It's in the DSP code (and subsequent control of injection of switching noise into the power supply and ground planes) where the gains in SQ are achieved.  There also may be gains in the way the firmware interacts with the network to smooth out the flow control, which can also yield improvements in SQ.

Richieroo,

As Huge has mentioned, 4.6 was released to upgrade mutiroom capabilities, Tidal stability and also the DSP code was updated that does affect (improve) sound quality. After much faffing around (some had no problems) I have updated from 4.4 to 4.6 firmware on my NDS and have enjoyed a significant improvement in SQ.

Go to the Naim website and go to Customer Support and then Updates I think it is and you will see the download to get you started on the 4.6 update.

Well worth the effort IMHO.

To be fair to Naim they did not have to improve the SQ, I know it’s frustrating but not many companies would bother. 

Ok will keep an open mind and update NDS and do a factory reset .......... 

Well that upgrade did not go well. I have 2 NDXs BT and one Unitiqute 2 BT - so all using USB. Things I have learnt:

1. Before downloading the new Silicon Labs USB to UART bridge remove all old versions/uninstall

2. Item 1 was impossible on my laptop - it wouldn't uninstall and even deleting all traces would not work. Another laptop needed (Naim this is not good enough)

3. DON'T download the Windows 10 generic driver at the top - its the intuitive thing to do - download the next one. 

Download for Windows 7/8/8.1/10 (v6.7.5)

4. After new laptop found and right drivers used, it worked. May hours and tries taken, I am running out of laptops.

Naim - things for you to learn:

1. Your technical support online is splendid.

2. This process is unacceptable. To require laptops, leads, second laptops, downloads from here and there, help on the phone, the right downloads from a list of many (all relevant), uninstalling, plugging stuff in the back if well integrated racks etc etc is not appropriate for £10k's work of kit.

3. You are a premium product, we expect premium experience. Sonos just updates itself over wifi. Would you like to update, yes, its done. PLEASE don't do this again.

You are wasting your customers time and goodwill, and your cash through support calls.

Thanks to support call helpers though, no hint of frustration from them even though they must have heard the same thing many many times.

Sorry Naim - I dont' like to critisise - we love you - but we want to help you get better :-)

Tim Watkins posted:

Well that upgrade did not go well. I have 2 NDXs BT and one Unitiqute 2 BT - so all using USB. Things I have learnt:

1. Before downloading the new Silicon Labs USB to UART bridge remove all old versions/uninstall

2. Item 1 was impossible on my laptop - it wouldn't uninstall and even deleting all traces would not work. Another laptop needed (Naim this is not good enough)

3. DON'T download the Windows 10 generic driver at the top - its the intuitive thing to do - download the next one. 

Download for Windows 7/8/8.1/10 (v6.7.5)

4. After new laptop found and right drivers used, it worked. May hours and tries taken, I am running out of laptops.

Naim - things for you to learn:

1. Your technical support online is splendid.

2. This process is unacceptable. To require laptops, leads, second laptops, downloads from here and there, help on the phone, the right downloads from a list of many (all relevant), uninstalling, plugging stuff in the back if well integrated racks etc etc is not appropriate for £10k's work of kit.

3. You are a premium product, we expect premium experience. Sonos just updates itself over wifi. Would you like to update, yes, its done. PLEASE don't do this again.

You are wasting your customers time and goodwill, and your cash through support calls.

Thanks to support call helpers though, no hint of frustration from them even though they must have heard the same thing many many times.

Sorry Naim - I dont' like to critisise - we love you - but we want to help you get better :-)

Naim do over the air updates on the new kit - musos, Atom. Star, Nova, Core - but the old ones (old Unitis, NDX etc) are how they are and the hardware won't support over the air updates. However they don't do firmware upgrades all that often so you may not have to do this again....

best

David

Thanks David, a lot of cash spent to feel obsolete :-(

Tim Watkins posted:

Naim - things for you to learn:

1. Your technical support online is splendid.

2. This process is unacceptable. To require laptops, leads, second laptops, downloads from here and there, help on the phone, the right downloads from a list of many (all relevant), uninstalling, plugging stuff in the back if well integrated racks etc etc is not appropriate for £10k's work of kit.

 

Sorry Naim - I dont' like to critisise - we love you - but we want to help you get better :-)

Hi Tim

1. Agree Naim phone support is consistently good, even if they aren't telling you what you want to hear, they remain calm and professional.

2. Many users (myself included) have had no issues with the update process. I appreciate that given the multiplicity of OS's supported (different iterations of Windows and Mac OS X), there are going to be issues, though the majority of forumites reporting problems now seem to have resolved them. I get the feeling that quite a number of the issues experienced were due to not understanding/following the process systematically. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the legacy streamers were sold with the understanding that USB based firmware updates were the order of the day. No doubt the reasons for this choice (as opposed to over the air updates) were logical back in the day many years ago when these streamers were designed. I for one am grateful that Naim has continued to invest shekels into continued support and SQ enhancements to the legacy kit, and will happily trade this for some hassle in the upgrade process. You mileage may vary - in which case either stick with the firmware you have, or get a dealer to do it for you.

Naim have already "got better" insofar as they took the decision a long time ago to ensure that future products (the new Uniti range and Muso's for example) update over the air. There's nothing that can be done fundamentally differently in respect of updating the firmware of the legacy streamers, apart from perhaps making the update process clearer, in terms of the process/documentation. In any event, it seems likely that this is the last update that the legacy streamers will receive.

Duncan Mann posted:

Tim Watkins posted:

Naim - things for you to learn:

1. Your technical support online is splendid.

2. This process is unacceptable. To require laptops, leads, second laptops, downloads from here and there, help on the phone, the right downloads from a list of many (all relevant), uninstalling, plugging stuff in the back if well integrated racks etc etc is not appropriate for £10k's work of kit.

 

Sorry Naim - I dont' like to critisise - we love you - but we want to help you get better :-)

Hi Tim

1. Agree Naim phone support is consistently good, even if they aren't telling you what you want to hear, they remain calm and professional.

2. Many users (myself included) have had no issues with the update process. I appreciate that given the multiplicity of OS's supported (different iterations of Windows and Mac OS X), there are going to be issues, though the majority of forumites reporting problems now seem to have resolved them. I get the feeling that quite a number of the issues experienced were due to not understanding/following the process systematically. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the legacy streamers were sold with the understanding that USB based firmware updates were the order of the day. No doubt the reasons for this choice (as opposed to over the air updates) were logical back in the day many years ago when these streamers were designed. I for one am grateful that Naim has continued to invest shekels into continued support and SQ enhancements to the legacy kit, and will happily trade this for some hassle in the upgrade process. You mileage may vary - in which case either stick with the firmware you have, or get a dealer to do it for you.

Naim have already "got better" insofar as they took the decision a long time ago to ensure that future products (the new Uniti range and Muso's for example) update over the air. There's nothing that can be done fundamentally differently in respect of updating the firmware of the legacy streamers, apart from perhaps making the update process clearer, in terms of the process/documentation. In any event, it seems likely that this is the last update that the legacy streamers will receive.

 

 

+1, I was going to make similar observations but Duncan expressed things more elegantly than I might have been able to do. 

For any Mac users still struggling with installing the 4.600 streamer update, have a quick look at my post over on the

 "issues installing the usb driver in OSX" topic.

Having experienced problems with previous updates, if you're having similar issues, this may help.

Tim Watkins posted:

Well that upgrade did not go well. I have 2 NDXs BT and one Unitiqute 2 BT - so all using USB.   .........................   etc.

I'm not disagreeing Tim,   but this is not what I've found,  I've done a lot more f/w updates than most because of beta testing & found this update was for me exactly the same as all others,  it ran perfectly using a driver I installed a few years ago.     

I don't fully understand what is going wrong for some people but not others - at least with the PC (Windows)   (I don't have OSX (Mac).   But it appears to me that some of these install difficulties are with people who have not done it before & they needed to install the Silabs USB driver & the latest Naim instructions .pdf link gets the wrong driver.   So that leaves me guessing that my old driver was OK for all the Window variants,   just as the new v6.7.5 is. 

Last weekend because of the posts about problems & suggestions to get Silabs v6.7.5,  I went to www.Silabs & grabbed a copy.  I installed it with (alongside) the old driver,  this worked just fine,  not sure what driver it was using, but it was OK.      

Today I decided to delete all the Silab stuff & start from new.  Windows-10 Control Panel>Programs+Features 'Uninstall' does not uninstall the actual Silab files, it just removes the setup links. after this I then went to OS(C)>Programs>DIFX (this is where the Silabs stuff is located) & deleted the folders.     I then downloaded & installed a new copy of v6.7.5,  then ran a test to check it out as a Naim f/w install - & its all OK.

When I download the driver I get a folder CP210x with lots of files inside...do I click on one of these?

Cheers

G

Tim Watkins posted:

Well that upgrade did not go well. I have 2 NDXs BT and one Unitiqute 2 BT - so all using USB. Things I have learnt:

1. Before downloading the new Silicon Labs USB to UART bridge remove all old versions/uninstall

2. Item 1 was impossible on my laptop - it wouldn't uninstall and even deleting all traces would not work. Another laptop needed (Naim this is not good enough)

3. DON'T download the Windows 10 generic driver at the top - its the intuitive thing to do - download the next one. 

Download for Windows 7/8/8.1/10 (v6.7.5)

4. After new laptop found and right drivers used, it worked. May hours and tries taken, I am running out of laptops.

Naim - things for you to learn:

1. Your technical support online is splendid.

2. This process is unacceptable. To require laptops, leads, second laptops, downloads from here and there, help on the phone, the right downloads from a list of many (all relevant), uninstalling, plugging stuff in the back if well integrated racks etc etc is not appropriate for £10k's work of kit.

3. You are a premium product, we expect premium experience. Sonos just updates itself over wifi. Would you like to update, yes, its done. PLEASE don't do this again.

You are wasting your customers time and goodwill, and your cash through support calls.

Thanks to support call helpers though, no hint of frustration from them even though they must have heard the same thing many many times.

Sorry Naim - I dont' like to critisise - we love you - but we want to help you get better :-)

First section...

1.  Shouldn't be necessary, plenty of people have managed to have both installed.
(But having 2 drivers installed for the same hardware is asking for trouble, so uninstalling the earlier driver is normal / good practice anyway.)

2.  If you couldn't uninstall it then there's a configuration problem with your laptop - you may need to re-install the OS to sort this out.
N.B.  This is nothing to do with Naim, the Silicon Laboratories Inc. CP 210x driver is supplied by Silicon Laboratories Inc.!

3.  Agreed, it's not intuitive to have the old driver (that's incompatible with the latest version of Windows) listed at the top.
Again, this is nothing to do with Naim, the Silicon Laboratories Inc. CP 210x driver is supplied by Silicon Laboratories Inc.!

4.  Again that's due to a problem with one of your laptops (which obviously needs sorting out before worse problems occur).

Second section

2.  It only requires a standard mini USB lead and a properly functioning PC (or Mac) with the appropriate driver for the specific OS in use.

3.  Naim systems are optimised for sound quality over convenience, Sonos sacrifice sound quality for gains in convenience - pick whichever optimisation you want!

Having said that, it is a right pfaf reprogramming the firmware on the older design of Naim streamers, but as I said they are optimised for sound quality... and engineering compromises have to be made somewhere.

GraemeH posted:

When I download the driver I get a folder CP210x with lots of files inside...do I click on one of these?

Cheers

G

Yes, the installer application:

CP210xVCPInstaller_x**  (where ** is 64 for 64 bit OS, and 86 for 32 bit (80x86) OS).

Thanks Huge...going to attempt this tonight but I’m not feeling hopeful!

G

Gents - thanks for your replies, alot of which I agree with. I dont wish to get into a debate, as digital comms often misses the point. However I am concerned that posts are regularly using the word 'legacy', and it seems like we should be grateful that these old systems are supported.

One of the reasons that I could justify the outlay, is that Naim gear is supported very well, and the residuals are high, offsetting the spend and de-risking the purchase. To tell a punter who say 45 days (ish) ago bought an NDS that it is now legacy, leaves him or her a little upset. To justify purchase, the product life should be long (I have owned olive 72,82,250, SBLs, Aro, NDXx2, Unitiqute 2) and some of the items I bought were second hand and now sold on. My SBLs cost me £20p.a.! over my ownership. My concern is now that product life is shorter, and it will lead to more difficult decisions.

Just me POV, I am sure others will disagree.

GraemeH posted:

Thanks Huge...going to attempt this tonight but I’m not feeling hopeful!

G

You'll be fine,

Install the driver before connecting the USB cable at both ends (it's fine connected at either end, just not at both ends!)

Go to Control Panel\All Control Panel Items\Programs and Features
Have a look for "Windows Driver Package - Silicon Laboratories Inc. (silabser) Ports (9/27/2017 6.7.5.1893)
If you don't have that, the right driver isn't installed.

Then connect the USB cable from the computer through to the streamer.

Only after connecting the cable look in Device Manger to find the COM port number (if there's no COM port shown then the cable is quite probably a charging only cable).

Put that COM port number into the Naim Streamer Updater application and let it do its stuff.

This sequence is as per the Naim instructions, but you do have to follow the sequence precisely.

GraemeH posted:

Thanks Huge...going to attempt this tonight but I’m not feeling hopeful!

G

Two important points. Don't connect your Naim streamer before you install the Silebs driver. There are very full instructions about loading the driver in the download link from the forum announcement, but the download link from the support page on Naim's website doesn't include those instructions for some reason. This is where you can find it all 

https://www.naimaudio.com/site...er-Updater-v.4.6.zip

Secondly your USB lead has to have the data connections in it and if your lead was originally obtained as a charging lead for a mobile phone, then it probably won't have because those leads omit the data connections so that if you connect your phone to a PC USB to charge it, you don't mess up the phone or the PC. If you have a dc only USB lead, then your PC won't be able to communicate with your streamer, regardless of the driver.

best

David

Thanks again. I did my Dac & NDX years back but never enjoy re-remembering the process!

G