4.6 update and upgrade sound quality ?

Hi WRC,  it seems to me the majority of people - me included - are happy with the change that 4.6 (& other past updates) have bought.   An impression might be given that the 'don't like' voters are more than the actual number because some have got into a string of posts & it gives the appearance the 'don't likes' are in the majority.      Question is will the 'don't likes' change their mind over time,  will reinstalling the f/w a 2nd time be enough to change their minds (dare I suggest placebo effect),  is any change from the status quo considered bad by some people as a matter of course,   or are people actually reporting a real dislike.

Mike-B posted:

Hi WRC,  it seems to me the majority of people - me included - are happy with the change that 4.6 (& other past updates) have bought.   An impression might be given that the 'don't like' voters are more than the actual number because some have got into a string of posts & it gives the appearance the 'don't likes' are in the majority.      Question is will the 'don't likes' change their mind over time,  will reinstalling the f/w a 2nd time be enough to change their minds (dare I suggest placebo effect),  is any change from the status quo considered bad by some people as a matter of course,   or are people actually reporting a real dislike.

I think it is great if people are enjoying 4.6, however I assure you that I am reporting real dislike. If my system is representative of this update then I must say that it robs the music of soul and makes the NDS sound like other "HIFI".

I am hoping that this is just a hiccup with my NDS and the firmware update.

ken c posted:

I have been on NDS 4.6 for more than a week now and have had he NDS playing a random selection playlist from my collection of streamed music over the past few days while I worked. This was an attempt to let the music 'wash over me' sort of. 

the nastiness that I experienced the first time I updated is definitely gone -- so that's good -- I was able to have long listening sessions without wincing in discomfort.

I can definitely pick up  enhanced clarity -- some additional musical lines in the mix -- and this is very apparent for choral music for example.

the presentation seems more 'animated' - you could say 'brightly lit'. it is definitely very 'impressive' but feels like something new that I have to learn to like and live with long term. Old age? Personal preferences, I guess... I found myself missing what i was used to with 4.4!!!

just as a last check, I will revert to 4.4 again one more time next week --and see what I feel like after that. Unlikely I will bore you with further reports.

I will be playing a lot of vinyl this weekend --- for a break. NAT01 sounds familiarly fab in my office as I work.

enjoy

ken

 

 

Ken, I am intrigued rather than bored with this topic, so I appreciate the time and effort you are taking to understand the nature of the difference in SQ between 4.4 and 4.6.

I look forward to your feedback when you revert to 4.4 but hope you don't (re)introduce the negative 4.6 if you finally go back to it! The techies will of course say this is not possible.

Donkeyhaute posted:

Pyrrhon posted:

I guess we need to make some statistics by gear model. On the superuniti alone I think its 100% prefer 4.6 by a large margin. If naim collects some data they can then fix a problem if there is one. 'Midrange missing' does not match what the upgrade did on my system. Naim and focal synergy should be near perfect, there might be a 'bug' in the update with the nds.

Not quite 100%, old chap. Mine went back to 4.4 after 2 weeks. On my system, at least, the 4.6 upgrade provided unwanted amounts of 'hi-fi'. But you're correct in stating that 100% is a large margin.

So you prefered your superuniti before? What are your speakers? Since synergy is so important I think you probably have a bright or analytical speaker wich makes synergy better on 4.4. Just guessing !  

I’m struggling with 4.6. I have 552DR/300DR/NDS+552DR/PMC Fact 12s/NACA5. I listen mainly to internet radio jazz and classical along with similar on Tidal.  Most of the time (60+%) 4.6 is better, but the other (30+%) it’s tough to listen to it especially at any volume above 9pm on the dial.

A couple of my favourite stations are now tough to listen to as they have become too bright. Cymbals and other similar sounds have come to dominate the music, while mid-range voices are recessed rather than forward.  Similar experience with some Tidal artists, say roughly 30% of my favourite albums now have this bright sound.

The Fact 12s have minor tone controls and I’ve set the bass and high frequency filters to their lowest settings, so less bass and less bright, but still it can be too much.

I’m trying it for this week to see if it grows on me, but otherwise I’ll revert back to 4.4.  I’ve had no issues under 4.4 and the Fact 12 controls were set flat.  I’ll experiment with speaker positioning as per an earlier post, but the Fact 12s are very forgiving with placement - it takes a lot to upset their sound and imaging.  I hope a future upgrade will find a batter balance.

mf99 posted:

I’m struggling with 4.6. I have 552DR/300DR/NDS+552DR/PMC Fact 12s/NACA5. I listen mainly to internet radio jazz and classical along with similar on Tidal.  Most of the time (60+%) 4.6 is better, but the other (30+%) it’s tough to listen to it especially at any volume above 9pm on the dial.

A couple of my favourite stations are now tough to listen to as they have become too bright. Cymbals and other similar sounds have come to dominate the music, while mid-range voices are recessed rather than forward.  Similar experience with some Tidal artists, say roughly 30% of my favourite albums now have this bright sound.

The Fact 12s have minor tone controls and I’ve set the bass and high frequency filters to their lowest settings, so less bass and less bright, but still it can be too much.

I’m trying it for this week to see if it grows on me, but otherwise I’ll revert back to 4.4.  I’ve had no issues under 4.4 and the Fact 12 controls were set flat.  I’ll experiment with speaker positioning as per an earlier post, but the Fact 12s are very forgiving with placement - it takes a lot to upset their sound and imaging.  I hope a future upgrade will find a batter balance.

 

This was another issue I had with 4.6 it was not easy to listen at high volumes. I like my music loud  and it is not possible with 4.6 on my system.

I am still waiting a resonse from naim to indicate whether this sonic change was intentional or not. 

Hi David252,  what is your system ??? you have nothing in your profile.     It seems those that don't like 4.6 are mostly NDS & most all NDX'ers like it     My NDX has not changed much w.r.t. acceptable high volume levels - but one mans loud is another mans ear shattering too loud,  my loud rarely goes over 85dB,  excl. dynamic peaks (iPad app SPL).   Interestingly when I first loaded 4.6 I felt the bass was a bit much & moved the speakers further out from the rear wall,  I've since fiddled around & they are back to within a few cm of where they were.

I had the same issue with 4.6, too much bass. I few tweaks and I’m very happy with 4.6 

David252 posted: 

This was another issue I had with 4.6 it was not easy to listen at high volumes. 

same here...

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

Hi David252,  what is your system ??? you have nothing in your profile.     It seems those that don't like 4.6 are mostly NDS & most all NDX'ers like it     My NDX has not changed much w.r.t. acceptable high volume levels - but one mans loud is another mans ear shattering too loud,  my loud rarely goes over 85dB,  excl. dynamic peaks (iPad app SPL).   Interestingly when I first loaded 4.6 I felt the bass was a bit much & moved the speakers further out from the rear wall,  I've since fiddled around & they are back to within a few cm of where they were.

Hi Mike

I have and NDS with two 555 power supplies this goes into a 252/300 and a pair of Sopra 2 speakers. All connected by super lumina cables.

There does seem to be a pattern forming that the majority of 4.6 dislikers seem to have NDS players. 

Maybe naim just want to nudge us to by the ND555.

ken c posted:

David252 posted: 

This was another issue I had with 4.6 it was not easy to listen at high volumes. 

same here...

enjoy

ken

Ken,

I am enjoying 4.4

David252 posted:

There does seem to be a pattern forming that the majority of 4.6 dislikers seem to have NDS players. 

It sure looks that way,   I've posted before that it looks like some dislikers have been posting a lot more on this issue than have the likers.    I'm wondering what other factors might be at play,  in my case the only negative effect I thought was with too much bass,  but even after moving the speakers out from the rear wall I seemed to get used to the change & now have the speakers back in their original positions.     @DaveBl was running the statistics for like/dislike on the '4.6 Verdict' thread & his last post on 3/5/18 reported NDS users were 75% positive for 4.6.   He was going to run some tests with another forumite,  but I haven't seen any updates.  

Mike-B posted:

David252 posted:

There does seem to be a pattern forming that the majority of 4.6 dislikers seem to have NDS players. 

It sure looks that way,   I've posted before that it looks like some dislikers have been posting a lot more on this issue than have the likers.    I'm wondering what other factors might be at play,  in my case the only negative effect I thought was with too much bass,  but even after moving the speakers out from the rear wall I seemed to get used to the change & now have the speakers back in their original positions.     @DaveBl was running the statistics for like/dislike on the '4.6 Verdict' thread & his last post on 3/5/18 reported NDS users were 75% positive for 4.6.   He was going to run some tests with another forumite,  but I haven't seen any updates.  

It stands to reason that those who perceive a negative change would be more vocal in my view, perhaps I'm one of those.

What's bizarre to me however is that those with older products/4.6 update or newer Uniti products/3.6 update who dislike it seem to have quite night and day sound differences between old/new firmware, and if anything most seem to complain of shouty/shrill/in your face vocals but loss, not excess, of bass and low mid range.  

I also think there is almost consensus about better detail in the new 4.6/3.6 firmware versions, but the dissenters feel this is at the expense of warmth and musicality, and that the music is fatiguing on the new firmware rather than enjoyable.

Mike-B posted:

David252 posted:

There does seem to be a pattern forming that the majority of 4.6 dislikers seem to have NDS players. 

It sure looks that way,   I've posted before that it looks like some dislikers have been posting a lot more on this issue than have the likers.    I'm wondering what other factors might be at play,  in my case the only negative effect I thought was with too much bass,  but even after moving the speakers out from the rear wall I seemed to get used to the change & now have the speakers back in their original positions.     @DaveBl was running the statistics for like/dislike on the '4.6 Verdict' thread & his last post on 3/5/18 reported NDS users were 75% positive for 4.6.   He was going to run some tests with another forumite,  but I haven't seen any updates.  

Ken C was going to visit this weekend, but he’s concluded that the main problem was due to a failed installation, and is now trying to get used to the new sound. I’m visiting Graham this week to hear his NDS with 4.4 & 4.6. I think there had been one new negative post since I last ran the stats, so I guess we are now at around 30/70% bad vs good.

Thanks for feedback Dave,  I'm not entirely convinced about a failed install as in a part install fail,   IME with s/w+f/w updates it either installs 100% or fails 100%;   I've gone back & forth 4.6, 4.4 & over the last years more beta rev than I can remember.  I've tried with & without factory resets,  mostly without,  I've even done a factory reset before uploading new code (& that makes more sense to me).   Apart from sonic variations & intended changes I've never had any hint of an install fail,   that said never say never.

Will be interesting to read how it goes with Graham..  

DaveBk posted:

Mike-B posted:

David252 posted:

There does seem to be a pattern forming that the majority of 4.6 dislikers seem to have NDS players. 

It sure looks that way,   I've posted before that it looks like some dislikers have been posting a lot more on this issue than have the likers.    I'm wondering what other factors might be at play,  in my case the only negative effect I thought was with too much bass,  but even after moving the speakers out from the rear wall I seemed to get used to the change & now have the speakers back in their original positions.     @DaveBl was running the statistics for like/dislike on the '4.6 Verdict' thread & his last post on 3/5/18 reported NDS users were 75% positive for 4.6.   He was going to run some tests with another forumite,  but I haven't seen any updates.  

Ken C was going to visit this weekend, but he’s concluded that the main problem was due to a failed installation, and is now trying to get used to the new sound. I’m visiting Graham this week to hear his NDS with 4.4 & 4.6. I think there had been one new negative post since I last ran the stats, so I guess we are now at around 30/70% bad vs good.

it was perhaps premature of me to cancel the visit Dave. Yes, I managed to get a 4.6 installation that didn't sound as horrible as first time around -- but after living with 4.6 for a few days --  I found myself tiring of the balance - and wincing as I increased the volume (say >10 o'clock). I also found I was losing interest in music -- and paying more attention to what I felt was etched clarify -- akin to a TV picture with too much contrast.

So i have reverted to 4.4 again. Yes, there is less clarity -- but I am finding it easier to enjoy music with this.

I have not given up though-- but unless some new wisdom emerges -- I am staying on 4.4 for now.  

I will follow your report on your visit to Graham's with interest.

enjoy

ken

Wouldn’t the reason why the dislikers of 4.6 are among NDS owners be that the degree of SQ refinement achieved with this player, makes it more difficult for further improvement or simple correction for changes induced by DSP coding modifications only meant for functionality enhancement, than for any other streamer? I am getting concerned of what we may be facing with future updates of the new range.

Will Salisbury offer then multiple and memorized firmware updates for typical and pre-determined listening configurations or even tastes? And what about DSP acoustic correction? ????

Chag -

Chag... posted:

Wouldn’t the reason why the dislikers of 4.6 are among NDS owners be that the degree of SQ refinement achieved with this player, makes it more difficult for further improvement or simple correction for changes induced by DSP coding modifications only meant for functionality enhancement, than for any other streamer?

Or . . . . preferences are subjective and some like the old sound better than the new sound???

There'a always another time Ken, just let me know if you are ever around the MK region and if convenient you can pop round. Linsday - The Strat (Fender) visited yesterday as we only live 10 miles apart and I'm catching up with Graham on Thursday , so will have a few additional data points in to the mix shortly.

With regard to why the 4.6 doubters are more prevalent with NDS based systems, I think you probably have a point Chag, but I'd express it slightly differently. In the NDS, the attention to mechanical and electrical isolation probably makes it more revealing of upstream changes in the digital section. This coupled with more revealing pre-amps etc. probable makes NDS owners more aware of any subtle change. Why some of us have responded positively and others negatively may just be one to personal taste. It's interesting reading Bert's Munich thread that he mentioned a Westend Electric integrated valve amp as:

 "A nice experience to get this vinyl feeling while listening to digital sources. Warm full sound which easily drove the Gauder speakers"

The pleasant, softer sound of tubes is appealing to many, but it could be argued that this is due to the benign harmonic distortion introduced by valve amplification, and that solid state designs are more 'honest' to the incoming signal. Naim amps focus on rhythmic qualities arguably at the expense of some resolution, but they sound great to me. In the quest for musical enlightenment there are many parameters to balance. Naim think 4.6 sounds better, I and around 70% of other NDS owners agree, but that doesn't make the other 30% wrong.

I think the really interesting question is how Naim should  approach future firmware upgrades. There will be new features expected by their customers base - Tidal, Roon etc. being recent examples. As Simon in Suffolk has eloquently described, the electrical noise created by different firmware executing on the ARM or SPARC chips can have audible impacts that are entirely unconnected to the functional change. A few more instructions executing in a time critical loop will impact current draw and noise... So what should Naim do? Stop all firmware upgrades in case there is an audible impact? Add a health warning - "This upgrade may change your personal appreciation of this product"? Continue to add functionality as demanded by customers and do their very best to make it sound excellent to their own and the beta testers ears? From what I have seen, the ND555 further isolates the computational digital section from the DACs, so hopefully the new products will be less susceptible to these issues.

Dave.

As advised by [@mention:32963504923772025] earlier in this series of posts, repositioning of my speakers has cured most of the nasty sounds experienced after the upgrade to 4.6.

My speakers are providing a better sound stage, bass notes are better defined, and the mid-range is back.  There are still a few instances where the high frequencies are too dominant, but they are much reduced from the initial “not-much-fun” listening state.

Listening at volume levels of 9 o’clock or louder is still occasionally, brighter than I would like, but it’s  much improved now.  It mainly occurs with one of my favourite radio stations - The Jazz Groove.  So, I guess I have to find a new favourite!

I’ll now be keeping the 4.6 upgrade.

I was disappointed on first install. 

Ran the install again, performed the reset and very happy now. Bass good(if slightly more controlled-less boom), midrange much better, top end smooth without any aggression(quality of recordings drpendable). 

Put the naca5 back(used TQ black ll for 6 months) and the whole thing sounds nicely integrated.

Happy 4.6 here.

With standard leads and setup I find the bass too much. Should I install 4.6 again? 

Won't do any harm I guess. 

What was wrong with the sound on first install for you  Ray? 

From what I remember.....tiring listen, too revealing, less bass, a bit too much top end. Perhaps the sudden change made me think negative and I've just got used to it. Who knows. 

I'm pretty sure though thst it sounded better next time round... on a NDX that is.