Running out of speakers to try!

In a small room with limited scope to move the speakers around or add bass traps, there is probably a limit to how much you can address this issue. I've had good results by staying with smaller speakers that don't have too much bass extension, and adding a sub that can be discreetly positioned behind the sofa. No guarantee that this will work until you've tried it, but it's an option to consider. 

I used to have a real issue with bass boom running a Superuniti (and other amps before that) in a smallish room. Much to my surprise, the problem pretty much evaporated when I upgraded the electronics. I added a NAP200 to the SU, then an NDX front end, and finally a 282. That final step of adding the preamp was the step that cured my bass boom - the low frequencies were simply controlled so much better. So on that basis, you could try the unlikely step of upgrading your preamp! A 282 might not fit in with your current system, but the 272 pre would benefit greatly from an XPS. This might sound like a crazy suggestion, but when you've run out of speakers to audition, ask your dealer if you can borrow some black boxes!

Mungochatney, the rear port of the Russel K 50s is really benign... if you have 20 cms or thereabouts  between the speaker and wall you will be fine ... I was. I find the sealed ATCs and the smaller PMCs need more space around them.

BTW for music replay I steer well away from subs... I find they can cause all sorts of issues with musical transparency... For films and EDM  then yes subs provide the thrills, but for other music a speaker that performs down to 50 Hz or so is fine in my opinion... unless you want to feel bass slam your brain fills in the rest of the musical bass . Again the AES has published studies on this and is the basis for many consumer small speaker electronics now.

Dynaudio Special 40? Sounded good at Bristol show, but not sure if they would suit your room. Others may be able to advise on this?

The chances are pretty slim that a change of speakers alone will fix the issues you have with your current speakers. All speakers interact with the room around them. I would try to experiment with a different room layout (yes I know this can be difficult).Maybe some sort of fabric (art) on the extended sides of the fireplace extending to the rear wall (or acoustic panels). I think you need to think outside the box rather than being so quick to change speakers.

Hi Mungochatney - am in a similar position having just ditched my Totem Hawks due to bass boom in a 4.0 x 5.3m room where the speakers were either side of the fireplace on the longer wall. Kit is NDX/SN1/HCDR.

I just home-demoed Audiovector SR3 Signatures and they were (to me of course) outstanding - huge but controlled bass with no boominess, wonderful overall sound and system synergy.  They were placed 40cm out from fireplace and with 30cm rear space.

Unfortunately, The Boss thinks they look too imposing in our living room and I was inclined to agree.  I’ve now got their their standmount versions (plus ribbon tweeters), and all the joy has gone along with the extra cabinet volume.

If you can get away with their size, I would highly recommend the SR3’s.  At £3.5k, not too far over budget too.

Side-note - I’ve so far shop-tested PMC 25.23, 25.24, Kef Ref1, Kudos SX5i, Russel K Red 120.  Only the Russell K’s sounded worthy of a home-dem, but their aesthetics don’t work for me ... meaning the dealer threw in a curveball of Shaninian Arcs.  The sound was a revelation (tho also way over my £3-4k budget).  However, their diminutive stance means less wife stress and maybe that’s worth 2 grand.  Home dem next weekend...

I’m also photoshopping a pic I took of the rosewood SR3s in situ, into a white finish, to see if that will appease my management

Evlampi posted:

MUNGOCHATNEY, what about ProAc Response D Two? A wonderfully balanced speaker!

I second this reco - I had a pair and am still bummed that I parted with them. And if my room were the size of yours, I feel certain I would still have them.

I had a pair of ProAc Response D Two's and loved them. As a couple of folks have mentioned you may want to give them a listen.

Try treating the room a bit and also there was a post over on the systems pic thread where someone had posted a video of Mr Van Den Hul discussing speaker placement where the speakers where more diagonal rather than square on.  I do suffer some boom with me Dynaudio Contour s3.4's in a similar sized room but only when played loud at normal listening levels they are fine but turn them up a bit and they do boom a bit but they sound so good I am prepared to put up with it.

I tried the smaller speaker and subwoofer route a while back with some Royd Edens and an older Rel Sub but it just didn't do it for me and I went back to my Dyns not enough body for me.  I have come to realise that as with most things there is a compromise when building a system and that compromise usually involves speakers.

Mungochatney, my advice would be to keep plugging away and stay resolute in your speaker quest. It took me three years and over a dozen quality speakers brought home for demo to find the pair that worked in my room, very similar in size to yours. Lots of trips back and forth from dealers, and diligence keeping up on their latest new and used inventory. Then one day BINGO, my perseverance was rewarded and I knew I'd found the right fit. My current speakers work so well that I have literally not moved them from their original point of placement in my room, six months since. Make and model recommendations are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, as speaker fit is wholly a product of an individual's room, system, and ears. I will say that in general I found better quality sound (clarity, cohesiveness, and tonal balance) as speaker cost increases. Reducing the bass boom of my previous speakers was a key factor for me as well. Best wishes!

If you want a pair of speakers that work well with a Nap200, throw music out in a wonderful way and have never ever any bass boom, it's simple: look for a pair of N-Sats/N-Stands. You might have the surprise of your life. Word of one who has had 5 pairs.

GraemeH posted:

Try the Tab 10...You might be pleasantly surprised.

G

I second Graeme suggestion and give the Tab10 a home trial, I use the Tabs on the end of a 272/250 and they work very well in my room with a lovely bass with a mid and top end detail to die for.

I ran PMC GB1i's for quite a few years before moving to new speakers last year. They replaced a pair of Naim N-Sats and were speakers that worked very well in my room (albeit a bit larger than yours). The front mounted transmission line vent doesn't have the peaky response of a port and so in more challenging rooms they can work well. For a compact floor stander, the GB1i can produce pretty deep bass and it may be that they are just not well suited to your room. I'd echo the recommendation on looking at smaller sealed box speakers such as the Tablette 10, the N-Sats (they really need their dedicated stand to perform at their best and both are only available on the S/H market). Also consider something like the Harbeth P3ESR.

Good luck

James

Just a thought, have you thought of auditioning your present speakers with a better power amp such as NAP250 DR? I found that initially my speakers, PMC 20/24'S sounded bass shy when I upgraded but on further listening it wasn't lack of bass but better resolved bass. Core, NAC 272, NAP250 DR, PMC 20/24's. Rich 

No idea what they are like, but PMC do some wall-mounting speakers, and I believe ATC have just gone that way, too. If you have no option but up against the wall, then speakers designed for such use would seem to make sense. I don’t think anyone has mentioned Naim SL2 yet, which fall into that category and some people swear by. 

I would have suggested PMC Fact 8, which retains the transmission line bass loading of the GBs and is tailorable to some extent, but I note you rejected the smaller Fact3. 

Otherwise as others have suggested, satellite/sub combination, whereby placement of the sub  may give more flexibility in taming the room, though the challenge will be integrating effectively.

You say room treatment is not something you really want to explore at the moment - but actually it is by far the best way to deal with room problems, yet overlooked by the majority of people, so maybe it is worth reconsidering. Likewise speaker and listening positions can have a huge effect, but if you really are stuck with how it is then you’ll have to be prepared for a lot of auditioning and possibly a permanent compromise. (Can you move the speakers and/or seat when serious listening, and put back where they are and ignore the limitations when more for background music? I do that, and my EB1s are rather bigger to walk into place than the GBs.)

Thanks all for taking the time to reply - really helpful. I now have a few more on the shortlist - Amphion, Proac, Russell K and Audiovector. My local hifi dealers are going to start groaning whenever they see me coming!

Try also the new Fyne Audio 502s, which wowed those who heard them at Bristol and are getting rave reviews.

Why do people think there are almost magical properties to open transmission lines?

The only difference between an open transmission line and a critically damped Helmholtz resonator enclosure is the small secondary peaks (from scattering) that the Helmholtz resonator has at higher harmonics of the resonant frequency, and which a TL can suppress a bit better.

Huge posted:

Why do people think there are almost magical properties to open transmission lines?

The only difference between an open transmission line and a critically damped Helmholtz resonator enclosure is the small secondary peaks (from scattering) that the Helmholtz resonator has at higher harmonics of the resonant frequency, and which a TL can suppress a bit better.

I don’t know about magical (and I certainly don’t get the impression anyone has presented that way in this thread), but of all the speakers I’ve heard, transmission lines have had the best sounding bass (to my ears, or course).

To avoid confusion, I do not think that Mungochatney and Mangomonkey should be allowed to post to the same thread. 

Back on topic, I do have empathy for the OP, as choosing new speakers from such a long list can easily lead to paralysis through analysis. Personally, I’ve always preferred either electrostatic panels or sealed boxes, both which (to my ears) deliver dry, tight bass. Other aspects of sound quality being equal, my choice of speaker has usually come down to how well I could pick out and follow a standing bass line in a live jazz recording.

Hook posted:

To avoid confusion, I do not think that Mungochatney and Mangomonkey should be allowed to post to the same thread. 

Back on topic, I do have empathy for the OP, as choosing new speakers from such a long list can easily lead to paralysis through analysis. Personally, I’ve always preferred either electrostatic panels or sealed boxes, both which (to my ears) deliver dry, tight bass. Other aspects of sound quality being equal, my choice of speaker has usually come down to how well I could pick out and follow a standing bass line in a live jazz recording.

Maybe not that difficult - a bit like house hunting. Having asked for suggestions, all (!) the OP has to do is try to get to hear each in turn, and ask: is this better than the best I’ve heard to date? Once through them all, there might be two or three worth getting for direct comparison. 

Of course, that assumes he has tolerant dealer(s) willing to keep supplying speaker after speaker...

Another option - harbeth C7s. Add a sub or two if you really need additional bass. Your issues seem to be room specific - not sure you'll find a speaker that doesn't boom.. - separating out the bass from the rest might be the trick.

Tablettes or the p3esr might be exactly what you need to do.

Hi I like my Neat Xplorers. Maybe try dem? 
Fred

MangoMonkey posted:

 Separating out the bass from the rest might be the trick.

It's what I always felt most Naim speakers did best.. 

Hook posted:

To avoid confusion, I do not think that Mungochatney and Mangomonkey should be allowed to post to the same thread. 

Waiting for Mega Mindy then!

Ardbeg10Y, I second your suggestion of SBLs. 

Stu