Equipment in next room instead of new rack

Definitely a cheaper option then a new rack, but that sums up the benefits. Plonking the boxes on a concrete floor is of little value. 

Just get a decent rack, the naim racks are exceptionally good and of course other racks are available.... eg Quadresphire 

I suspect that it will help but a good rack also dissipates energy created within the equipment itself like transformer hum, turntable motor noise and the odd transport mechanisms whirring away, so a separate room will help to reduce the airborne type vibrational energy but not the stored energy.

I once had a large connecting cupboard between two rooms and thought the same as you. However, every rack improvement I made could clearly be heard despite a good amount of isolation between equipment (in the cupboard) and the speakers in the other room.

No cheap solutions I'm afraid...not in this game!

You will still need shelves that allow heat dissipation and cable dressing, so although it might be overkill to use Fraim in your garage, you might still want to consider a rack of reasonable quality.

I have done just what you are suggesting and it did make a very big difference (improvement).

However I had previously been using a Fraim and am still using it, so not sure what it would be like without any proper support.

But the difference in putting the black boxes in a different room was well worth the effort and cost of a small increase in NACA5  length.

If all you need to do is drill a couple of holes in the wall then give it a try and see / hear what happens.

I remember John Watson of Mana doing the test several years ago. His view was that a good rack made a big difference even in another room - the reason being control of equipment generated vibrations rather than airborne ones. Mind you, he would say that wouldn't he!

My friend did just what your are planning and it made a fantastic improvement.

He actually converted part of his garage into a small office and he put his hifi set into the small office, with small holes to feed the speaker cables into the speakers in his listening room.

His equipment is not Naim, it's a Thorens deck and Technics amps which are housed in a glass-fronted cabinet (probably from MFI !).

The arrangement means he can easily access his hifi to change records and the remote works fine as well.

Having heard his equipment both before and after his change, I can vouch for the improvement. But note...... he was also using a modest equipment cabinet as well. I wouldn't countenance the "garage" v "decent rack". You need both !

Just plonked on the garage floor could be a problem if your susceptible to floods, damp and extreme temperature fluctuations. Or if you have another half that has parking issues.

    " Honey.   I just ran over your hifi "

Martin, I’ve done something similar, though for different reasons. I get terrible transformer buzz from my Naim Power supplies despite great efforts to eradicate it, including installing a separate dedicated mains line. My solution was to put any box with a transformer in it in a cupboard in the next room and have all the cables coming through the wall to the head unit boxes for streamer, preamp and power amp in my listening room. Cumbersome, but I didn’t have room next door for the whole system. If I had the opportunity that you have I would take it. As others have pointed out above, you’ll still need a decent rack in the garage though. 

BTW, I assume your garage is a hospitable environment for sensitive electronics? In particular that it’s not prone to condensation? Also that it’s kept locked and well secured!

Thanks for the info everyone, the good thing is it’s used for storage and gym but bad news is it can get down to 0 Celsius and I can’t seem to find the operating temperature range for the hifi. I’m gonna check the humidity levels soon over the next few months but don’t think they will be too high and my muso works without a hitch but it’s a fraction of the price of the separates.

Thanks again for all your help and info

On a different note something has changed in the sound today I put some tunes on and the whole thing sounds bigger clearer and more real, I’ve not moved or changed anything but it’s sounds like a massive upgrade has happened so I’m too scared to start moving things about in case it goes back the way it was, any clues what’s happened, the only thing I can think of is the supercapdr has improved but I’ve had it since late December

Martin128 posted:

Thanks for the info everyone, the good thing is it’s used for storage and gym but bad news is it can get down to 0 Celsius and I can’t seem to find the operating temperature range for the hifi. I’m gonna check the humidity levels soon over the next few months but don’t think they will be too high and my muso works without a hitch but it’s a fraction of the price of the separates.

 

I would put a desiccant dehumidifier in the garage, which will keep it dry, and put a low level of heat into the room. Either that, or a NAP500, and turn your gym into a sauna!

 JV used to keep all his gear outside the room in a cabinet in the hallway.

In the early eighties'80's, I was in a position to try my gear in the adjacent room. Rega Planar 3 turntable and Quantum amps on a Target style rack, were being blasted by prog rock at megadecibel by Mission 770 speakers. After moving turntable and amps to the dining room, I could hear drums and bass guitar as separate instruments, for the first time.

Having to go into the dining room to change LP sides was a real pain though!

How about some pre loved Fraim or lite in the garage?

Obsydian posted:

 JV used to keep all his gear outside the room in a cabinet in the hallway.

IIRC, Paul S did something similar with his PSUs - with a hole drilled through the adjoining wall into the kitchen.

Richard Dane posted:

Obsydian posted:

 JV used to keep all his gear outside the room in a cabinet in the hallway.

IIRC, Paul S did something similar with his PSUs - with a hole drilled through the adjoining wall into the kitchen.

Oh no you will start a craze now, I can sense everyone is off to B&Q for drill attachments.

I recall I considered doing this 15 yrs ago, but the thought of going out of the room to change a CD or volume put me off, but with streaming from the Naim app being in another room not an issue. Actually breaking in some new speakers recently I sat in another room and controlled my Nova from an iPad and the Naim remote fine.

Well, to be fair I recall that the sources, pre-amp etc.. were actually in the listening room.  It was just items with transformers that were next door.

I like to keep a trusty metre long sds drill bit handy in case I need to do some serious drilling.

Dozey posted:

I remember John Watson of Mana doing the test several years ago. His view was that a good rack made a big difference even in another room - ???? the reason being control of equipment generated vibrations rather than airborne ones????. Mind you, he would say that wouldn't he!

???? He's right about this❗ 

Move the equipment from the listening-room is better,but a good rack in the new room is importent....just as John Watson say.

GEKO also write about this a bit up here in this thread.

◾ You can test this for yourself,listen thru headphone with the headphone-amp on a ordinary table. Then move the headphone-amp to a good rack and listen again.

No discussion,the headphone-amp on the good rack give better soundquality. And here you have no airbone vibrations.

Who say this hobby that we have is easy to understand.....???????? ????????.

/Peder ???? 

TOBYJUG posted:

Just plonked on the garage floor could be a problem if your susceptible to floods, damp and extreme temperature fluctuations. Or if you have another half that has parking issues.

    " Honey.   I just ran over your hifi "

...”Honey. I just ran over your head”

G

Minh Nguyen posted:

I like to keep a trusty metre long sds drill bit handy in case I need to do some serious drilling.

Pah!  Call that a serious drill bit?!

This is more like it...

Martin, from an engineering point of view what your are proposing is eminently sensible. It will have two benefits, one it will isolate the sound of loudspeakers from the hifi....not that it is very microphonic (turntable excepted), but the big lumps of metal (i.e the cases) and the stands themselves will buzz and rattle to an extent. In addition, you will isolate the you from the incidental noise from the equipment (transformer buzz etc), which really is worth having.

I would look to have some kind of rack in the garage but it doesn't have to be a hifi rack. I don't believe these provide any isolation in any case...so no loss in performance. You just want the stand to be even and to put some space between the pre-amp and the various transformers, and the turntable and various transformers.

Martin M posted:

Martin, from an engineering point of view what your are proposing is eminently sensible. It will have two benefits, one it will isolate the sound of loudspeakers from the hifi....not that it is very microphonic (turntable excepted), but the big lumps of metal (i.e the cases) and the stands themselves will buzz and rattle to an extent. In addition, you will isolate the you from the incidental noise from the equipment (transformer buzz etc), which really is worth having.

???? I would look to have some kind of rack in the garage but it doesn't have to be a hifi rack. ◾ I don't believe◾ these provide any isolation in any case...so no loss in performance. ???? You just want the stand to be even and to put some space between the pre-amp and the various transformers, and the turntable and various transformers.

???? You say,...."I don't believe ❓❓ ???? 

You are wrong here,see my post when I describe the headphone-test. We have also tested this❗ 

A guy here in Sweden, who has his top-spec aktiv Naim system in the garage. 3 different rack's.......

◾ Naim Fraim.

◾ Mana-rack.

◾ Harmony-rack,a top-spec swedish rack.

They all sounds good in the garage,different to each other but good, But the clear Winner is the Mana-rack,it's a big difference to the other two in musicality.

You can't say....."I don't believe" when you give advice......you must know,you also say "so no loss in performance. People can go in the wrong direction if they have such advice.

Ps,.. Martin M,...the guy I talk about in the garage here in Sweden has the same system as you...... Aktiv DBL with 6*135 Naim-amps,52,NDS ..... and so on.

/Peder ???? 

Peder, I'd really appreciate it if you moderated your tone a little.  I read your response to be rather aggressive. There's no need for it. 

Please re-read my response.  I said I don't believe that hi-fi racks provide isolation and that hifi electronics aren't especially microphonic.  These are facts - most racks (fancy hydraulically isolated ones or multi-phase Mana (perhaps) aside) couple the stand to the environment...and it is measurable that the vast majority of solid-state electronics are not microphonic. 

In any case, you said that the Mana sounded more musical in your test, fair enough. But could this be for the very reasons I offered? If so, why not simply create a rack that places the equipment correctly in relation to one another? BTW I have a Mana Phase 4 under my record player. I can get that absolutely and reliably level even when placed under the not inconsiderable load of my SME turntable.

Having over 3 year full time experience working in Stockholm as a Dutch guy, I can guarantee that a Swede writing this way is absolutely not being aggressive. Just a cultural / language thing.

Martin M, I for one would very much disagree with your statement that equipment isn't particularly michrophonic and that racks don't make much of a difference. My 35 years experience leads me to the exact opposite conclusion. I'd even say that a good rack is a fundamental foundation to the system, just as much as a dedicated electrical supply can be.

i have also found that different racks cast a very different presentation and perspective on the music that can not be ignored. Which is why Naim don't ignore it and provide very sophisticated suspension systems and anti-vibrational connections in their top-end equipment. Despite this a 552/500 will sound completely different on a Quadraspire to a Naim Fraim to a Mana rack.

You mention 'measurable' but I think there's a lot more going on it terms of energy dissipation  than we can measure with traditional equipment. Some of the best 'on paper' measured audio equipment is often some of the worst sounding/performing I've heard, so measurement is certainly no guarantee of performance.

???? GEKO,.....I agree with EVERY word you say here,this is also my experience and everyone that I know in this hifi-hobby ????????????.Because of this I write earlier, and told you about my headphone-test.

I also write about our rack-test in the garage,so we HAVE TESTED THIS ????????????..

As you, I also have 35 years of experience (buy'd my first LP12 1983),and the other guy's who did the test has a lot,....and I say a lot of experience in this "field".

I follow some importent words, "Foundation First",and "Attention To Detail"  another..... "Everything Matters" can we also put in ????.

/Peder ????