How to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?

Do you have a separate power supply for the NAC202?  If so then the easy option would be to connect between the output of the PSU and in the input of the NAP200.

Without that option you could connect a eq via the HDD, Aux 1 or AV socket and utilise the MONitor circuitry.

Of course most people would say don't (use a eq) ... it cause more problems than it might solve in most situations.

Thanks for your response.

I don't have a separate power supply - I only have the Nac 202 and the Nap 200.

So if I plug the equalizer into for instance AV in/out, I just press the "mon" button, and then my CD player, DAC and record player (with a separate phono stage) runs through the equalizer and I have to do nothing else, meaning it would essentially be like placing the equalizer between the amps and the speakers?

I'm using the two RCA connections for my CD player and my record player and then AUX 1 on DIN for my DAC.

Here's what the manual says:

"The NAC 202 incorporates a mon (“tape monitor”) function. Pressing the mon button routes the tape, av or aux 1 input signals to the preamplifier output while leaving the input selection routed to the tape, av and aux 1 outputs. The mon function can also be selected from the handset.
Note: Only the tape, av and aux 1 inputs (those that incorporate outputs) can be selected when mon is engaged. However, if one of these inputs carries the source signal, that input will be unavailable for monitoring.
Note: As delivered the NAC 202 record mute function is engaged. It can be disengaged by pressing the mute button while mon is engaged. See Section 13.2"

Blimey

just dont

It is just not the Naim way

any equalizer just might destroy the intimacy in the timing relationships in music called phasing

Are you talking about a graphic equaliser or something along the lines of the Kef Kube type equaliser. Just interested in what you are trying to achieve ?

James

James, it would be a parametric equalizer. I'm just planning to make a slight dip in the treble in case my new speakers in a new house will be a little bit too bright.

Ah understood. I'd see how you get on with the new room first and see if you still need any equalisation. 

James

Yes, that was also my plan. It was just nice to know if it was actually possible to even connect an equalizer and how I would do it :-).

Both to you and to the rest of you out there, if you can confirm if my description above of how to connect the equalizer is correct (or wrong) I would be very grateful :-).

This is my equalizer

Quit nice. By Marcel Wanders.

You can use an equaliser - just plug into the tape loop, that way you can switch it in and out - however, you really, really, shouldn't because it will serious mess with the music replay fundamentals.  This is why Naim don't fit tone controls, let alone an equaliser. The clue that an equaliser is not good is the fact that Naim don't make one.  Never have, never will (at least not in the analogue domain).

If you find the speakers a bit too bright then try any other means except an equaliser.  How about a British Rail style antimacassar over each HF unit..?

Firstly select speakers to suit the room.

Second, adjust the position of the speakers within the room.

Third, adjust the room to sort out any remaining issues (bass traps for LF, soft furnishing / curtains / textile wall hangings for HF, diffusers for focus etc).

Fourth, adjust the position of the speakers within the room (again after the changes to the room).

Finally, live with it and just get used to it!

Some people use digital sources with built-in DSP or add-on capability, coming before the preamp.

If you go active, digital crossovers often offer so e limited additional DSP.

But I am confused by the “in case my speakers will be too bright”. Why even ponder it at all before knowing if they are? And if they are, and the choice of speakers an home are fixed, then as Huge intimated, positioning of speakers and listening position, including amount of ‘toe in’ of the speakers, care with furnishings, and if necessary judicious room treatment, in general are better approaches. (If, for instance, overbrightness is caused by early reflections, reducing treble will drop the level, but keep the muddied sound, whereas reducing the reflections will clean up the sound as well.

Another cure for excessive brightness is age - but you may have to wait a while for it to be fully effective...

Richard Dane posted:

You can use an equaliser - just plug into the tape loop, that way you can switch it in and out - however, you really, really, shouldn't because it will serious mess with the music replay fundamentals.  This is why Naim don't fit tone controls, let alone an equaliser. The clue that an equaliser is not good is the fact that Naim don't make one.  Never have, never will (at least not in the analogue domain).

If you find the speakers a bit too bright then try any other means except an equaliser.  How about a British Rail style antimacassar over each HF unit..?

Ah.. brings back good old days memories from the Quad 34/44 era, both which had usefull tonecontrols/tilt to use when old vinyl was played, perhaps a 44/405II should be considered, apart from famous electrostatic speakers they did some remarkable good electronics - still service them in UK - a friend just had his 40 years 303 made up fresh as new.

Graphic equalisers, like tone controls, are the work of Satan.

To all the haters: The headline was "how to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?". You can start your own topic called "why should I not use an equalizer, and why is it not the Naim way?"

It's possible to move to another house and bring your speakers with you, creating a new situation, instead of having to shell out every time you move.

So, people still haven't really answered the question, but I take it that I should just connect the equalizer to the tape in/out, and then press "mon" on the remote, as quoted from the manual above, and then any changes to the frequency response will affect both CD player, record player and DAC, which is what I was aiming for.

???? BOARD,...I say the same as Richard,....you really,really,shouldn't use an EQ.

Try to learn the " Tune Method ",after that you will never think of an EQ again. Best is if you will have a dealer to demonstrate it for you. Not every dealer can work with this method,but find a good dealer who can.

You can also read about the Tune-dem,Tune method in Linn's forum, it's the same but they use some other words to describe it. It's difficult to describe this in words,...better to do practical work with it with you dealer.

I sold my EQ 1983, and never look back ????.

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???? THE TUNE METHOD???? 
It’s important to know that there are many opinions about what is “good” or “correct” when it comes to sound and music reproduction. I personally use the Tune Method and rate it as the single most important method for evaluating the quality of music and speech reproduction. Not only is it a very simple and accurate method. The method is best learnt by personal demonstration, but some people seem to get the hang of it just by following the instructions below. 

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
 
 ???? The Tune Method ???? 
 
The Tune Method is a method for comparing two things against each other and determine which of the two performs best in musical terms. It can be two pieces of electronic equipment, two speaker positions in a room, two mains leads or any other part of a sound reproducing system or listening environment. When doing comparisons, you should never change more than one parameter at a time. If you do, it will be very difficult to draw any conclusions from the outcome of your comparison. 
 
There is not much to discuss regarding the result, it's just a matter of Better or Worse. There may of course be other aspects of the sound that can be debated, but the outcome of a properly executed Tune Method comparison is always as simple as “this is more in tune than that”. 
 
The idea is that by focusing on your understanding of the music - or more specifically the melody or tune of the song - you are not distracted by details, the general sound character or other more subjective perceptions of the sound. The result of using the Tune Method can therefore be regarded as a short cut to what your opinion would be if you had listened to the two alternatives for a very long time. This is because your ears gradually get used to a certain sound, but what really determines how much you will enjoy your system is how easy it is for your brain to understand and appreciate the music being played. 
 
Sound character is something very subjective, but whether the music is in tune or not is not subjective. What few people know is that sound systems perform very different in terms of how well they reproduce the
music in tune. And a system that is in tune can strongly communicate the emotional content of the music, give the listener a much more intense experience and will not cause listening fatigue. 
 
 
How to do it 
 
The method is not unlike the way some musicians tune their instruments. Imagine a skilled guitar player tuning his guitar by plucking three strings in succession: E, A, D.  He repeats the tones in his head to get an internal "reference" and focuses his hearing: E, A, D. He then changes the tension of the D string very slightly and plucks them again: E, A, D. Was that more in tune? Yes, that is more like it! If he isn't quite sure, he goes back to the first setting and compares it with the second. While the actual tuning of the instrument requires skill and experience, the difference between when the strings are in tune or not can be heard by almost anyone. The Tune Method therefore requires no “golden ear”! It is easily learned by anyone who can manage to focus on the music rather than the sound of the system. 
 
In the version of this method adapted to hifi comparisons, you make comparisons using an A-A-B method while actively following or singing along with the tune of the song: 
 
* Play on component A while following or singing along to the main tune of the music. Play  no more than about 10 to 20 seconds, because this amount of music is easiest to remember correctly.  * Repeat the 10-20 seconds on component A (because it is usually is a little easier to follow the tune the second time you hear it).  * Now play the 10-20 seconds on component B. 
 
Was it, with B, easier to follow or sing along with the tune or was it more difficult?  Did you feel that the melody was more "in tune" with B than with A?  Could you feel how other instruments (drums or percussion for example) were helping you to follow the tune (then B is better!) or were they slightly distracting or playing on their own? (Then A is better).  If you were feeling "yeah, that's how it goes!" the last time, then B is better. If you became puzzled and no longer really sure how the tune goes, it might indicate that A is better but you will perhaps have to do it again. 
 The better a system is at reproducing music and speech, the less your brain has to work to understand the message. The result is more enjoyment and lower stress levels. Therefore, a system that performs well in Tune Method terms is a system that is immediately enjoyable, that will broaden your taste in music (or movies) and will be used very often. 
 
For the Tune Method comparison, you can use almost any type of music, with any type of instruments. It is, however, preferable if the song starts more or less immediately with a clearly distinguishable melody. Use each song for no more than a couple of comparisons, after that it will usually be easier with a new song. 
 
It can often be easier to compare with songs that you have never heard before, otherwise you will already have the tune inside your head and that does not make the comparison any easier. Beware of old favourites! It is also strongly recommended to stay away from audiophile recordings and records that are supposed to sound sweet and nice. Music that is noisy and/or has been recorded with low quality can often be much easier to compare with. This is because your focus then shifts from the nice sound to what the musicians are trying to communicate. 
 
Also, do stay on roughly the same spot in the room while you're listening. Which spot is irrelevant as long as it is the same on all three occasions (A, A and B). Many people find it easiest to use the Tune Method while standing outside the room that the music is being played in. This might appear strange, but when listening from another room, the fine details of the sound are less distracting and the focus is therefore shifted towards the fundamental qualities of the music. 
 
 
Relaxed and focused 
 
Whenever you start feeling tired, stop and do something else for a while. It's essential to feel relaxed and at ease when doing these comparisons. If you are not, you won't be able to focus on the music, which will tend to make you judge more by "feeling" – a method that also works sometimes, but not as reliably. Since you need to be relaxed and focused, the Tune Method is much more difficult to perform in so called blind tests. Any situation where you feel that someone is judging your performance will increase your stress levels and diminish your ability to focus on the music. 
 
Please note, however, that blind tests can be arranged in a way that gives you full control over the music, the volume and the switching between A and B. When this is the case, the Tune Method works great and I regularly use such blind tests when developing new products. 
 
With some practice, the Tune Method is very easy to use and the results are consistent and repeatable. It is also interesting to note that people who often disagree about sound quality almost always come to the same conclusions when they start using this method. 
 
 
Common questions 
 
The most common question I have received when demonstrating the Tune Method is this: Isn’t it easier to follow the tune on a system which delivers less information? In other words; do systems that lack detail perform better when performing Tune Method comparisons? 
 
The answer is no. It can easily be demonstrated that reducing the amount of information from a well performing system results in the tune being more difficult to follow. One of the simplest things is to remove a low frequency speaker, such as a properly installed subwoofer, from the system. This makes the system perform worse and the tune becomes more difficult to follow. The same thing happens when removing a very high frequency driver. It can also be shown that it is far easier to follow the tune while listening to the live performance of an artist than it is when listening to a recording of the same performance. Our hearing is made to perceive and analyse natural sounds. The less distorted the sounds are, the easier it is for our brains to interpret the information. And the more the system is in tune the more musical experience you have,enjoy.
-----------------------------------------------------
/Good luck,Peder ???? 

board posted:

To all the haters: The headline was "how to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?". You can start your own topic called "why should I not use an equalizer, and why is it not the Naim way?"

It's possible to move to another house and bring your speakers with you, creating a new situation, instead of having to shell out every time you move.

So, people still haven't really answered the question, but I take it that I should just connect the equalizer to the tape in/out, and then press "mon" on the remote, as quoted from the manual above, and then any changes to the frequency response will affect both CD player, record player and DAC, which is what I was aiming for.

Board, this is a forum, we are not a helpdesk but try to have a good time exchanging experiences, opinions and a bit of advice. You have actually touched a very sensitive subject.

When I arrived in the Naim world there was such a topic running+ I would not be surprised that after some searching it appears that there are a multitude of topics regarding tone controls and equalizers. It seems that in the Naim world Equalizers are unacceptable, but tweaking with cables, furniture is the way to go.

I do understand your question, people move to other houses, or redecorate their rooms and this indeed affects the hifi. I´ve been in such circumstances too starting from 2.5 years ago when I bought a quite large house making all my hifi worthless. I´m still trying to manage the livingroom, my wifes opinion, my hobby etc ... 

Betting office opened! I bet that before the end of the weekend this topic has easily received a 100 posts!

And 90 of those will be irrelevant to the original posters question...

I'm off to learn the 'Tune Dem Method'. I may be some time 

Ardbeg10y posted:

board posted:

To all the haters: The headline was "how to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?". You can start your own topic called "why should I not use an equalizer, and why is it not the Naim way?"

It's possible to move to another house and bring your speakers with you, creating a new situation, instead of having to shell out every time you move.

So, people still haven't really answered the question, but I take it that I should just connect the equalizer to the tape in/out, and then press "mon" on the remote, as quoted from the manual above, and then any changes to the frequency response will affect both CD player, record player and DAC, which is what I was aiming for.

Board, this is a forum, we are not a helpdesk but try to have a good time exchanging experiences, opinions and a bit of advice. You have actually touched a very sensitive subject.

When I arrived in the Naim world there was such a topic running+ I would not be surprised that after some searching it appears that there are a multitude of topics regarding tone controls and equalizers. It seems that in the Naim world Equalizers are unacceptable, but tweaking with cables, furniture is the way to go.

I do understand your question, people move to other houses, or redecorate their rooms and this indeed affects the hifi. I´ve been in such circumstances too starting from 2.5 years ago when I bought a quite large house making all my hifi worthless. I´m still trying to manage the livingroom, my wifes opinion, my hobby etc ... 

But when somebody asks a question, then people who know the answer should respond instead of responding with something else. I was simply asking "is it possible to use it and how do I plug it in?". If people don't know the answer, no problem, but why are they then responding with something completely different? I don't respond to topics where I don't know the answer.

A couple of years ago, I asked on another website about replacing a cogwheel to an Arcam Alpha 6 CD player (the one that pushes the drawer out) as mine was broken. One of the few people who responded, responded with "Buy a T+A CD player instead". Yes, that was the answer I was looking for :-)

james n posted:

And 90 of those will be irrelevant to the original posters question...

I'm off to learn the 'Tune Dem Method'. I may be some time 

Agreed :-).

board posted:

To all the haters: The headline was "how to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?". You can start your own topic called "why should I not use an equalizer, and why is it not the Naim way?"

It's possible to move to another house and bring your speakers with you, creating a new situation, instead of having to shell out every time you move.

So, people still haven't really answered the question, but I take it that I should just connect the equalizer to the tape in/out, and then press "mon" on the remote, as quoted from the manual above, and then any changes to the frequency response will affect both CD player, record player and DAC, which is what I was aiming for.

Aside from the fact that I annswered saying some people do with DSP in two different places, you In turn you have not answered the question James N asked regarding what kind of equaliser.

To that, should be added what are its specs for input and output levels and impedances?

And are you saying that other suggestions that may help you achieve your end with better sound quality are simply not welcome?

Innocent Bystander posted:

board posted:

To all the haters: The headline was "how to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?". You can start your own topic called "why should I not use an equalizer, and why is it not the Naim way?"

It's possible to move to another house and bring your speakers with you, creating a new situation, instead of having to shell out every time you move.

So, people still haven't really answered the question, but I take it that I should just connect the equalizer to the tape in/out, and then press "mon" on the remote, as quoted from the manual above, and then any changes to the frequency response will affect both CD player, record player and DAC, which is what I was aiming for.

Aside from the fact that I annswered saying some people do with DSP in two different places, you In turn you have not answered the question James N asked regarding what kind of equaliser.

To that, should be added what are its specs for input and output levels and impedances?

And are you saying that other suggestions that may help you achieve your end with better sound quality are simply not welcome?

I said that it will be a parametric equalizer.

There was a recent topic where someone was driving Dynaudio C1´s by a Nap 200 causing harshness when the volume was increased.

I do think that the amp / loudspeaker pairing is quite important.

At the risk of failing to answer the OPs question again, do you have a digital (streaming) source? If so, you may be able to add digital eq. For example, Roon has a full featured parametric eq included, which is highly confugurable, and wouldn't require any faffing about with a tape loop. (It would require a little faffing around with digital input configuration, though.)