How to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?

board posted:

james n posted:

I'm off to learn the 'Tune Dem Method'. I may be some time 

Agreed :-).

I'm really,really surprice'd,  that you say "Agree" to....????not to learn/try the Tune-dem/Tune Method. If you use this method,you shall have the best musical presentation you can get from your system in your room.....and you shall never again thinking EQ.....I promise you that.

The method came from Linn/Naim, and is the single most importent toll to use when you shall do a system-installation. Göran Rudling,the swedish Linn/Naim-distributor 1980-1994 and Ivor Tiefenbrunn (Linn) introduce the method in Sweden. Everyone,dealers,custumers has used the method since than,...and we have a very good reputation in system-installations.

I don't understand,if you don't use this method in Great Britian,.....the homecountry's of Naim and Linn...."flat earth". How can you set up a music-system and get the most out of it in musicality ways❓ 

My advice is,...try to learn the method.It's not easy to learn/understand,but when you can do a system-installation with the method.....you shall never regrett it....believe me ????????????????.

/Peder ???? 

ChrisSU posted:

At the risk of failing to answer the OPs question again, do you have a digital (streaming) source? If so, you may be able to add digital eq. For example, Roon has a full featured parametric eq included, which is highly confugurable, and wouldn't require any faffing about with a tape loop. (It would require a little faffing around with digital input configuration, though.) 

As mentioned earlier, I have connected both CD player, record player and a DAC for computer audio, and I would want to use a parametric equalizer on all sources simuntanously. I just wanted to know if it was possible to connect it and how I would do it. If I understand it correctly, I connect it to the tape in/out, press "mon" on the remote, and then all three sources will go through the equalizer and that will be the only change.

But you were one of the people most on topic :-).

board posted:

ChrisSU posted:

At the risk of failing to answer the OPs question again, do you have a digital (streaming) source? If so, you may be able to add digital eq. For example, Roon has a full featured parametric eq included, which is highly confugurable, and wouldn't require any faffing about with a tape loop. (It would require a little faffing around with digital input configuration, though.) 

As mentioned earlier, I have connected both CD player, record player and a DAC for computer audio, and I would want to use a parametric equalizer on all sources simuntanously. I just wanted to know if it was possible to connect it and how I would do it. If I understand it correctly, I connect it to the tape in/out, press "mon" on the remote, and then all three sources will go through the equalizer and that will be the only change.

But you were one of the people most on topic :-).

Sorry, I missed the bit about wanting to use it with a turntable! Still, you have the answer you wanted above, so I guess people can now safely make suggestions you didn't ask for, knowing that you won't have to waste your time reading them!  

board posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

board posted:

To all the haters: The headline was "how to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?". You can start your own topic called "why should I not use an equalizer, and why is it not the Naim way?"

It's possible to move to another house and bring your speakers with you, creating a new situation, instead of having to shell out every time you move.

So, people still haven't really answered the question, but I take it that I should just connect the equalizer to the tape in/out, and then press "mon" on the remote, as quoted from the manual above, and then any changes to the frequency response will affect both CD player, record player and DAC, which is what I was aiming for.

Board, this is a forum, we are not a helpdesk but try to have a good time exchanging experiences, opinions and a bit of advice. You have actually touched a very sensitive subject.

When I arrived in the Naim world there was such a topic running+ I would not be surprised that after some searching it appears that there are a multitude of topics regarding tone controls and equalizers. It seems that in the Naim world Equalizers are unacceptable, but tweaking with cables, furniture is the way to go.

I do understand your question, people move to other houses, or redecorate their rooms and this indeed affects the hifi. I´ve been in such circumstances too starting from 2.5 years ago when I bought a quite large house making all my hifi worthless. I´m still trying to manage the livingroom, my wifes opinion, my hobby etc ... 

But when somebody asks a question, then people who know the answer should respond instead of responding with something else. I was simply asking "is it possible to use it and how do I plug it in?". If people don't know the answer, no problem, but why are they then responding with something completely different? I don't respond to topics where I don't know the answer.

A couple of years ago, I asked on another website about replacing a cogwheel to an Arcam Alpha 6 CD player (the one that pushes the drawer out) as mine was broken. One of the few people who responded, responded with "Buy a T+A CD player instead". Yes, that was the answer I was looking for :-)

Because they are trying to help you achieve the same results without an EQ. I would say those are the best of the opinions/replies. If you are going to add an EQ, you may as well sell your naim gear and buy something with tone controls. You spent good money for the naim sound, and now you want to spend more money ruining it. Not much point IMO. 

board posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

board posted:

To all the haters: The headline was "how to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?". You can start your own topic called "why should I not use an equalizer, and why is it not the Naim way?"

It's possible to move to another house and bring your speakers with you, creating a new situation, instead of having to shell out every time you move.

So, people still haven't really answered the question, but I take it that I should just connect the equalizer to the tape in/out, and then press "mon" on the remote, as quoted from the manual above, and then any changes to the frequency response will affect both CD player, record player and DAC, which is what I was aiming for.

Aside from the fact that I annswered saying some people do with DSP in two different places, you In turn you have not answered the question James N asked regarding what kind of equaliser.

To that, should be added what are its specs for input and output levels and impedances?

And are you saying that other suggestions that may help you achieve your end with better sound quality are simply not welcome?

I said that it will be a parametric equalizer.

That doesnt tell us a lot. Digital or analog? Electrical charCteristics?

and what about my final question?

board posted:

ChrisSU posted:

At the risk of failing to answer the OPs question again, do you have a digital (streaming) source? If so, you may be able to add digital eq. For example, Roon has a full featured parametric eq included, which is highly confugurable, and wouldn't require any faffing about with a tape loop. (It would require a little faffing around with digital input configuration, though.) 

As mentioned earlier, I have connected both CD player, record player and a DAC for computer audio, and I would want to use a parametric equalizer on all sources simuntanously. I just wanted to know if it was possible to connect it and how I would do it. If I understand it correctly, I connect it to the tape in/out, press "mon" on the remote, and then all three sources will go through the equalizer and that will be the only change.

But you were one of the people most on topic :-).

MON stands for MONO and it sums both channels into one. So that’s not really a way forward.

There are generally two ways of using an equaliser. Between a source and a pre-amp or after the pre-amp and before the power amp.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Betting office opened! I bet that before the end of the weekend this topic has easily received a 100 posts!

The Weekend?!!?

Or in the effects loop channe if there is one - tape loop in a hifi amp

JamieWednesday posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Betting office opened! I bet that before the end of the weekend this topic has easily received a 100 posts!

The Weekend?!!?

???? ???????? 

Adam Zielinski posted:

board posted:

ChrisSU posted:

At the risk of failing to answer the OPs question again, do you have a digital (streaming) source? If so, you may be able to add digital eq. For example, Roon has a full featured parametric eq included, which is highly confugurable, and wouldn't require any faffing about with a tape loop. (It would require a little faffing around with digital input configuration, though.) 

As mentioned earlier, I have connected both CD player, record player and a DAC for computer audio, and I would want to use a parametric equalizer on all sources simuntanously. I just wanted to know if it was possible to connect it and how I would do it. If I understand it correctly, I connect it to the tape in/out, press "mon" on the remote, and then all three sources will go through the equalizer and that will be the only change.

But you were one of the people most on topic :-).

MON stands for MONO and it sums both channels into one. So that’s not really a way forward.

There are generally two ways of using an equaliser. Between a source and a pre-amp or after the pre-amp and before the power amp.

 

The MON button on the NAC202 is the tape monitor.

Best way to use an equaliser is on the tape in/out circuit. You just need appropriate interconnects.  

Good luck.

james n posted:

And 90 of those will be irrelevant to the original posters question...

I'm off to learn the 'Tune Dem Method'. I may be some time 

Don't get lost, it's cold outside!

If you are going to try to correct a speaker / room mis-match using a parametric equaliser (rather than by fixing the acoustics of the room), then I seriously suggest investing in some parametric measuring equipment such as a miniDSP UMIK-1 and a copy of REW (and teaching yourself how to use it) as then you'll actually know what's going on with the sound of your system.  Trying to do these sort of corrections by ear is just guess work and unlikely to yield anything like an optimal result.

Furthermore rather than a crude analogue parametric equaliser I strongly recommend using a DSP unit such as the miniDSP 2x4HD, as that way you'll have much more accurate control.  This can also be wired into the tape/hdd out/in monitoring loop of the 202.

i can’t sleep, maybe i should read the tune method: A B , B A, A B....

????Mr French Rooster,...with that comment you show all here,...AND, Mr Ivor Tiefenbrun (Linn) and RIP, Mr J Vereker (Naim), that you know complitly nothing what's it all about .

From at least,the early 80-isch and forward, every dealer has to use this method, when they do system-installation in costumers home's. It was a very hard rule from Linn to their dealers to use this method,I think from Naim to their dealers to.This dealers often/mostly,sold both Linn and Naim. They also use this method at the factory, when they build and compare equipment.

So,....Mr French Rooster,it's strange that you don't seem's to know about this method.....every good "flat earth'er" know this.....at least if they shall called themself a real Linn or Naim-man or woman.

◾ Mr French Rooster,....another thing,I have ask'ed you a question in the ongoing Cisco-thread. Can you please give me an answer to that question.

/Peder.

To the OP, please bear in mind everyone's posts are made with the best of intentions, if a little dogmatic. And the definitive answer (use the tape loop) has been provided a few times.

I'd suggest making the move first and see how it goes before adding an equalizer or anything. Your concern is very specific so I assume you have a good reason for it like huge windows or changing from carpeted to tiled floors. 

If mucking about with the room isn't your thing, and changing speakers isn't either, then a non Naim amp is not a sin. I hear the PMC Cor integrated has is getting some respect and has programed tone controls. Someone posted earlier that using an equalizer in line with the analog amplification chain totally negates the point of owning Naim. I'd 100% agree with this. But as mentioned, there are non Naim options where the amps are designed/expected to be used with tone controls. You won't find a lot of support for that on the forum other than DSP further up the chain but I for one won't shoot you.

As mentioned, just give it a shot first and only when you hear the results start thinking about things like equalizers that will coast more money. There absolutely are solutions to your problem but let's start with the problem description first. Until you move and set it up we won't know there is a problem or what it is.

I remember the novelty, fun factor of having a graphic equaliser there was a time when any self respecting Japanese 'stack system' owner wouldn't be without one my Technics had one and I thought it looked great all lit up but after playing around with it a couple of times it was left with all controls set to zero.

There is no harm in trying and nobody but you can decide if you like the results but my experience of equalisers even within a system they are designed for is that they take away more than they add. I think that the only way to use one to good effect is to go for a digital system not analogue.

Good luck though with your new home and I hope the speakers blend well for you and negate the need for any changes but if changes are needed try a Hicap and definitely a Napsc if you don't already have one and also changing speaker wires has always had an effect on my system, heavy gauge copper wires like Nac a5 are a good way of taming a bit of brightness IME. 

Peder posted:

????Mr French Rooster,...with that comment you show all here,...AND, Mr Ivor Tiefenbrun (Linn) and RIP, Mr J Vereker (Naim), that you know complitly nothing what's it all about .

From at least,the early 80-isch and forward, every dealer has to use this method, when they do system-installation in costumers home's. It was a very hard rule from Linn to their dealers to use this method,I think from Naim to their dealers to.This dealers often/mostly,sold both Linn and Naim. They also use this method at the factory, when they build and compare equipment.

So,....Mr French Rooster,it's strange that you don't seem's to know about this method.....every good "flat earth'er" know this.....at least if they shall called themself a real Linn or Naim-man or woman.

.

I also have never heard of the tune method, though admittedly I have never called myself a Linn or Naim man or woman (real or imaginary), just a music mad man (some people join the last two words...) and I know nothing of Flat Earth.

Having read the description, In some ways it seems interesting, and certainly worth a try - that can do no harm, though whether it works for me I have no idea - part of the concept in the description seems flawed because it is talking about notes being in tune, which is pitch, and other than a turntable (or tape) which could run at an incorrect speed I think it would be a rare situation for hifi components to alter pitch. However, I assume that it focussed on pitch purely as an easy to understand example, meaning more than just notes in tune.

The problem I have always had with comparing things is not getting drawn into the music, so maybe the idea of using music I don’t like very much could be a way around that (if I can bear it!). I also found that when listening to only short passages I was struggling to decide what to focus on (e.g. can I hear a particular sound or characteristic, yes same on both, so pick another characteristic again and again), while unless you have the gear on extended home audition listening for a long time to each component to see which you end up not bothering to change from can be impossible. I was particularly interested to note the suggestion of listening from outside of the listening room, because when I’ve done some home auditions my wife in the adjoining room was picking out which one was best very clearly and apparently more obvious to her than it was to me in the room. (Of course it may just be that her ears are better than mine!)

French Rooster posted:

i can’t sleep, maybe i should read the tune method: A B , B A, A B....

Hope that got you to sleep. Beats counting sheep (counting beats instead of bleats?)

Some people use the rhythm method................

And what word describes people who use the rhythm method...

Parents!

Used (past tense)

Ardbeg10y posted:

Betting office opened! I bet that before the end of the weekend this topic has easily received a 100 posts!

Aww! It only amounted to 45 replies, and only over the course of around one day :-/.

I hope you didn't give the bookie all your savings.

Well, maybe my response here will revive the topic and enable me to get a second helping. Did you tell the chef that I would like my head served on a platter flamed?

One additional suggestion:

If, after the house move, you are indeed struggling with the treble, you could consider to sell your 202/200 and buy a s/h Linn Majik DSM instead. This should cost you not more than a decent equaliser and you could use digital "Space Optimization" to taylor the sound to your room. The results should be much better than with an equaliser.

board posted:

...Well, maybe my response here will revive the topic and enable me to get a second helping. Did you tell the chef that I would like my head served on a platter flamed?

Board, you've had some good advice on this, so I'm not entirely sure what more you are asking for here. 

Of course, you could post about what you decided to do in the end and how it has worked out?

board posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Betting office opened! I bet that before the end of the weekend this topic has easily received a 100 posts!

Aww! It only amounted to 45 replies, and only over the course of around one day :-/.

I hope you didn't give the bookie all your savings.

Well, maybe my response here will revive the topic and enable me to get a second helping. Did you tell the chef that I would like my head served on a platter flamed?

Herod,

I miserably lost. My wife has used all week to sell my hifi - and that is not the biggest problem. She got much more money out of it than she expected and now she thinks that she is a good hifi sales person. All what is left is a hidden Nac 72 which I can still power by the switching mode power supply of her hear dyer but since this is well out of forum policies, I won't elaborate on that.

Regarding your head, I'm glad that you seriously consider room treatment as a serious option now. I'm not confident that one head is sufficient to diffuse the high tones enough though.

Ardbeg

Innocent Bystander posted:

I was particularly interested to note the suggestion of listening from outside of the listening room, because when I’ve done some home auditions my wife in the adjoining room was picking out which one was best very clearly and apparently more obvious to her than it was to me in the room. 

I have long thought this a useful technique.  I have no idea why it should be, but it is.  I remember many years ago (about mid 1960s) I first experienced this.  My sister was playing some acoustic guitar music on my father's system (Sony amp of some sort, SME arm, garrard TT, a really nice speaker (mono) - a Wharfedale corner speaker, sandfilled cabinet, big bass driver, mids and tweeters).  I was in another room and was convinced that she was playing a real guitar.  But over the years I have often found that from outside the room I could really hear the difference between good and bad systems.  I mentioned this to some of the people at Audio Experience, and they found it quite amusing...