How to use an equalizer with Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?

Richard Dane posted:

board posted:

...Well, maybe my response here will revive the topic and enable me to get a second helping. Did you tell the chef that I would like my head served on a platter flamed?

Board, you've had some good advice on this, so I'm not entirely sure what more you are asking for here. 

Of course, you could post about what you decided to do in the end and how it has worked out?

I'm just trying to keep the atmosphere light, jovial and jokey :-).

I haven't moved yet, so I can't report back yet. I think many people missed a certain phrase that I used originally, and out sprang all the "work of the devil" comments:

"I'm just planning to make a slight dip in the treble in case my new speakers in a new house will be a little bit too bright."

I have also considered using room correction software if needed, but I'll figure out.

Just for the record: Amp/speaker match, speaker positioning (toe in/out, etc.), acoustic panels, etc. ... I knew all that to begin with. In case (there's that phrase again) there was a small spike at, say, 3 kHz, or 11,5 kHz that was like a knife in my ear and just needed to be lowered by anywhere from 0.5 to 3 dB, then a parametric equalizer would do the job.

It just seems rather odd to be planning to cut the treble ‘just in case’, unless there is good reason to suspect it will indeed be the case,rather than waiting till you have moved and listened and assessed and tried the physical things - and people really were trying to be helpful when they pointed out that the solution you were considering considering is likely to be detrimental to the sound quality that you have paid good money to achieve, hence the negative comments and the flood of suggested alternative approaches after the first respondee had given you the specific answer you requested.

Although you haven’t said as much, I get the impression that you may already have an equaliser kicking around. If that is the case, why not try its effect in circuit now, keeping it flat, to see if you hear any degradation just from it being in the signal path?

OK thanks.

True, an equaliser may well do the job, but it always comes at a price, and you'll need to judge for yourself just how much it messes with the system's ability to reproduce music.  This is why you should do all you can with the room and system set up to avoid the need for such a thing if possible. And if you really want the best equaliser that will apply minimum impact to overall music replay performance then be prepared to stump up for something like the old Cello Audio Palette.  Sadly, I'm told there is a yawning gap between what this can achieve and the next best device.  There's also something of a yawning cost gap too...

????BOARD,...If you take this seriosly,..... The Tune Method,and after the first round of Tune Method,....you go on with Room-Tunning,....if you after that still have some problem.go on with The Tune Method again, to fine-tune all, and get it together to play music in your room.

I have give you this advice earlier in this thread,but I get the feeling that you didn't take this seriosly.....WELL,....it's up to you❗ It's you who miss the point then,.....not me.

This is my last word's in this thread,I say as Richard,....◾you've had some good advice here on this◾....use this advice. If you don't,go on with your EQ-thinking and destroy the musicality from your music-system.....it's up to you.

/Peder ???? 

A friend of mine uses a Schilt LOKI in his system as a form of room correction for his vinyl replay and it works really well.

I must comment this......

 ???? This,and other so called  "room correction"-stuff, is for people who can't do/have learnt to do a good System-installation.

They take the easy way,and buy this kind of "stuff".....and hope to find a solution❗ ....the only way forward is to learn to set up a music-system the right way.

If we all here have been in the same place, I could demonstrate this very easily❗ 

❌ Don't go for this kind of products in a Naim (or other) music-systems ...❗❗❗ 

Peder ???? 

Peder,

Without applying appropriate qualification your statement it's contentious, insulting and also incorrect.

I use a limited form of room correction (but only to perform the crossover for the sub I use and to correctly integrate it into the rest of the system and into the room resonances).  My main way of dealing with the characteristics of the room are the bass traps and mass loading of the floor below all three speakers.

This was not the "easy way".  It took a lot of planning and even longer to optimise: moving the speakers, moving the bass traps (also adding more bass traps), moving the furniture to optimise the sound, floating the sub on a mass loaded air suspension (resonance @2Hz) then finally readjusting the DRC.

Peder posted:

I must comment this......

 ???? This,and other so called  "room correction"-stuff, is for people who can't do/have learnt to do a good System-installation.

They take the easy way,and buy this kind of "stuff".....and hope to find a solution❗ ....the only way forward is to learn to set up a music-system the right way.

If we all here have been in the same place, I could demonstrate this very easily❗ 

❌ Don't go for this kind of products in a Naim (or other) music-systems ...❗❗❗ 

Peder ???? 

Is it just me that finds all these brightly coloured faces, exclamation marks, crosses and boxes rather irritating? It looks like something a small child might write. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Peder posted:

I must comment this......

 ???? This,and other so called  "room correction"-stuff, is for people who can't do/have learnt to do a good System-installation.

They take the easy way,and buy this kind of "stuff".....and hope to find a solution❗ ....the only way forward is to learn to set up a music-system the right way.

If we all here have been in the same place, I could demonstrate this very easily❗ 

❌ Don't go for this kind of products in a Naim (or other) music-systems ...❗❗❗ 

Peder ???? 

Is it just me that finds all these brightly coloured faces, exclamation marks, crosses and boxes rather irritating? It looks like something a small child might write. 

Maybe it was indeed a small child who wrote all those things :-).

Peder says “❌ Don't go for this kind of products in a Naim (or other) music-systems ...❗❗”

Why not? If it sounds better than it is better as Linn’s says in excellent tune demo documentation. My friend’s system with Loki sounds even better with it than without and it was quite superb to start with. He used tune demo to set it up. In the end all that matters is he likes it. No rocket science involved.

What is wrong if somebody wants to try Loki and decide for themselves rather than follow some dogma. It makes a measurable difference, the listener decides if he likes what it does. This forum is full of folk changing cables to achieve the Loki effect and even more bizarre changes that are in Peter Belt territory: linear PSs for Mac Mini, Cisco switches and ... do these really make a difference, exactly what changes.

If you keep an open mind, Peder, and give Loki a try then you’ll be in for a pleasant surprise. It costs far less than a fancy cable and is easy to optimise using Linn’s tune demo method.

I have used tune demo for many years, the best description of it is published by Linn: it is one way of assessing the effectiveness of Loki in the same way Linn uses tune demo to tune Space Optimisation (SO).

Not sure if you know, but SO is Linn’s parametric equaliser and is part of its design for every DS(M). Naim’s new boxes are Roon ready and can take advantage of its parametric equalisation. Audirvana and J River MC often suggested by forum members for DAC users also offer parametric and graphic equalisation. So tune demo is a good way to optimise these tuning mechanisms. You can use measurement too.

Forget the dogma and enjoy the music and you won’t go far wrong.

And agree with HH he's annoying.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Peder posted:

I must comment this......

 ???? This,and other so called  "room correction"-stuff, is for people who can't do/have learnt to do a good System-installation.

They take the easy way,and buy this kind of "stuff".....and hope to find a solution❗ ....the only way forward is to learn to set up a music-system the right way.

If we all here have been in the same place, I could demonstrate this very easily❗ 

❌ Don't go for this kind of products in a Naim (or other) music-systems ...❗❗❗ 

Peder ???? 

Is it just me that finds all these brightly coloured faces, exclamation marks, crosses and boxes rather irritating? It looks like something a small child might write. 

⚫ Hungryhalibut,....to be very Clear here. I'm 60 years old,and it's my rights to write posts the way I do. If you have problem with it,.....DON'T READ IT..❗ 

In the same way, it's you who decide how you write your posts. Otherwise we should have a very mainstream forum, if everyone has the same layout of their posts....Grey and borring.

I illustrate with this what's importent,what mood I am in,.....and that's a very good thing to do when you write at internet, where you can't see the one you talk with. It's easier then to not missunderstand each other.....very importent, because we are from so many different countrys.

◾I think we have to much of what they called "word-police" on Internet,....don't you think ❓

Back to subject..... 

/Peder ???? 

#JeSuisPeder

But on topic, I feel that there is a misunderstanding about room corrections in this conversation. Some imply that it is a piece of software which seems to roll off or strenghten certain frequencies, others see the room corrections as a physical act: moving furniture / loudspeakers etc ...

I'm not certain what the 'official' meaning is.

Peder posted:

Back to subject..... 

/Peder ???? 

Tom Cruise in "Collateral":

That's funny coming from you.

Peder posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Peder posted:

I must comment this......

 ???? This,and other so called  "room correction"-stuff, is for people who can't do/have learnt to do a good System-installation.

They take the easy way,and buy this kind of "stuff".....and hope to find a solution❗ ....the only way forward is to learn to set up a music-system the right way.

If we all here have been in the same place, I could demonstrate this very easily❗ 

❌ Don't go for this kind of products in a Naim (or other) music-systems ...❗❗❗ 

Peder ???? 

Is it just me that finds all these brightly coloured faces, exclamation marks, crosses and boxes rather irritating? It looks like something a small child might write. 

⚫ Hungryhalibut,....to be very Clear here. I'm 60 years old,and it's my rights to write posts the way I do. If you have problem with it,.....DON'T READ IT..❗ 

In the same way, it's you who decide how you write your posts. Otherwise we should have a very mainstream forum, if everyone has the same layout of their posts....Grey and borring.

I illustrate with this what's importent,what mood I am in,.....and that's a very good thing to do when you write at internet, where you can't see the one you talk with. It's easier then to not missunderstand each other.....very importent, because we are from so many different countrys.

◾I think we have to much of what they called "word-police" on Internet,....don't you think ❓

Back to subject..... 

/Peder ???? 

Exactly Peder - we all left school some time ago and no longer need lecturing - except by SWMBOs of course

Peder, please can you explain the difference between a black circle and a black square? Maybe you should write a glossary. 

Theron posted:

 And agree with HH he's annoying.

⬛THERON,....Thank you so much for that ????.

◾You joined here 28 Mars 2018,not so good to start here with this kind of posts.This says alot of you,no more comments from me on this.

--------------------------------------------------------

The other thing you wrote,if I take time I shall answer you. It take time for me to explain in english so you understand what I mean. But I can say, that your friend goes a sideway if he use this Loki for correction his vinyl replay.

Everybody here, who had long experience of vinyl replay should know this.

We DON'T talk GOOD SOUND here,we only go for BEST MUSICALITY....as also is the endpoint if you use Tune-Dem/Tune Method..❗ 

/Peder ???? 

Theron posted:

 

 

Not sure if you know, but SO is Linn’s parametric equaliser and is part of its design for every DS(M). Naim’s new boxes are Roon ready and can take advantage of its parametric equalisation. Audirvana and J River MC often suggested by forum members for DAC users also offer parametric and graphic equalisation. So tune demo is a good way to optimise these tuning mechanisms. You can use measurement too.

For the record, Audirvana doesn’t offer parametric or graphic EQ. Whilst it does allow you to use the Mac’s ability to run various EQ “Audio Unit” add-ons if you want, that is only facilitated by departing from its optimal sound quality set-up whereby it bypasses as much as possible of the Mac’s soundcard functions. If I were contemplating adding EQ into a decent quality system I would be seeking a design optimised for sound quality commensurate with the rest of the system.

You are right, however, in that what matters is how it sounds to the OP, and it is of course a matter for him to try, by whatever means of assessment he prefers. The point that some of us have made is that there may be ways of fixing a troublesome treble without electronics, which may make the whole system sound even better.

(And I am still curious as to the ‘planning in case’ aspect...)

Innocent Bystander posted:

Theron posted:

 

 

Not sure if you know, but SO is Linn’s parametric equaliser and is part of its design for every DS(M). Naim’s new boxes are Roon ready and can take advantage of its parametric equalisation. Audirvana and J River MC often suggested by forum members for DAC users also offer parametric and graphic equalisation. So tune demo is a good way to optimise these tuning mechanisms. You can use measurement too.

For the record, Audirvana doesn’t offer parametric or graphic EQ. Whilst it does allow you to use the Mac’s ability to run various EQ “Audio Unit” add-ons if you want, that is only facilitated by departing from its optimal sound quality set-up whereby it bypasses as much as possible of the Mac’s soundcard functions. If I were contemplating adding EQ into a decent quality system I would be seeking a design optimised for sound quality commensurate with the rest of the system.

You are right, however, in that what matters is how it sounds to the OP, and it is of course a matter for him to try, by whatever means of assessment he prefers. The point that some of us have made is that there may be ways of fixing a troublesome treble without electronics, which may make the whole system sound even better.

(And I am still curious as to the ‘planning in case’ aspect...)

For the record Audirvana does offer/have a graphic equaliser .

It's  in  preferenceses .

Ive just tried to post a screen shot of it but it wouldn't work.

My friend has large music collection & finds Loki gives great results. Moving furniture is not practical & he has found does not match the musicality he achieves with Loki. You can achieve similar with Urika 2.

board posted:

 

How do I use an equalizer with the Nac 202/Nap 200 combo?

 

Why?

Theron posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Theron posted:

 

 

Not sure if you know, but SO is Linn’s parametric equaliser and is part of its design for every DS(M). Naim’s new boxes are Roon ready and can take advantage of its parametric equalisation. Audirvana and J River MC often suggested by forum members for DAC users also offer parametric and graphic equalisation. So tune demo is a good way to optimise these tuning mechanisms. You can use measurement too.

For the record, Audirvana doesn’t offer parametric or graphic EQ. Whilst it does allow you to use the Mac’s ability to run various EQ “Audio Unit” add-ons if you want, that is only facilitated by departing from its optimal sound quality set-up whereby it bypasses as much as possible of the Mac’s soundcard functions. If I were contemplating adding EQ into a decent quality system I would be seeking a design optimised for sound quality commensurate with the rest of the system.

You are right, however, in that what matters is how it sounds to the OP, and it is of course a matter for him to try, by whatever means of assessment he prefers. The point that some of us have made is that there may be ways of fixing a troublesome treble without electronics, which may make the whole system sound even better.

(And I am still curious as to the ‘planning in case’ aspect...)

For the record Audirvana does offer/have a graphic equaliser .

It's  in  preferenceses .

Ive just tried to post a screen shot of it but it wouldn't work.

 

Ok, those are not Audirvana’s filters, but third party ones - Apple’s Audio Units by default, though I believe you can add others.  

At home now I’ve checked, and I was wrong in remembering that they couldn’t be used when optimised in Direct Mode (unless implementation has changed), so I take that back with apologies for misleading. How much effect they have on sound quality I don’t know, - I suspect it depends on the specific filter. (I note that as well as a GE, Apple’s standard Audio Unit offerings include a parametric equaliser.