The 4.6 verdict
Posted by: Jack From Adelaide on 14 April 2018
Well, it is now a week since I updated my NDX to use the new 4.6 firmware. My principle purpose was to try and improve the stuttering I had on TIDAL and I didn't expect anything else. The playback through TIDAL is vastly improved. There, post done. WAIT there's more.
What I didn't expect from the description was any noticeable change in sound quality. I don't have a multi-room system (would that I could afford such a luxury!) but I do have quite a good main music system, which includes an NDX.
What I found after the first few albums was that the bass was tighter and more "tuneful". Then I noticed higher resolution. This became apparent almost immediately because my music room is next door to my Mother In Law's bedroom and I usually have to either use headphones or listen at painfully low levels so as not to disturb her. I was reading a book and kept having my attention drawn to whatever I was playing. The instruments and the singers were literally leaping out of the speakers into the room. It was uncanny. At this very moment I am listening to K. D Lang's "Hymns of the 49th Parallel" on UpNP server (minim server - rendered to WAV) and the piano in Hallelujah has this wonderful dynamic presentation, the loud and quiet passages are rendered more noticeably. K.D.'s voice and her exquisite control of the pacing and phrasing is there to hear. In a way that I have never noticed before. A couple of days ago it was Imogen Heap and her Ellipse album on TIDAL. Again the sense of her being in the room was remarkable. At some points it made the hair on my arms stand up. I have listened to E. Power Biggs playing Handel, the bizarre and ultimately rewarding Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith's "The Kid", Dami Im's new album "I Hear a Song" and Ryan Teagues "Block Boundaries". Every album is surrendering new details and expression that I have never heard before.
For those of you as ancient as me it is equivalent to the first time I put a moving coil cartridge on my turntable: I am rushing to listen to old favourites and new music to see what it sounds like now! In some cases I am discovering that they aren't as well recorded as I thought (Scartaglen's "This Nights Fun" was closed in and you could hear each microphone feed was in a separate acoustic) others are better than I ever suspected.
This upgrade was extremely painful to load (see my recent posts on the issue) but it was well worth the effort. Here is the magic of digital audio: a simple firmware upgrade is like a multi-thousand dollar improvement in your system.
My advice: If you can't load the firmware after an hour of effort, simply take your gear to your dealer and offer them $20 or something to do it for you. It is well worth the effort.
Jonn posted:Agree totally Ken. After a week with v4.6 I've now gone back to v4.4 on my NDS and the magic has returned.
V4.6 overemphasised parts of the musical spectrum so it sounded unbalanced. Further the soundstage widened so instruments were spread too far left and right like some 1960s stereo demonstration album. Balance has been restored with v4.4 and the emotional connection to the music is back.
Good thing there is the option.
yes indeed Jonn -- lucky the 4.4 roll-back option is available!! I haven't done it yet -- accepting personal preferences - which I don't believe is the issue here -- I am still puzzled why the upgrade was so positive for other NDS owners -- so I want to check a few more things . I also know from my long exposure to Naim hifi that the sound I am hearing would probably not be acceptable to Naim themselves, although perhaps this could indicate some change of direction - pure speculation -- I don't know.
Reminds me of the time I tried a friends' (well known) high-end speaker cable that exhibited the similar 'etched detail/somewhat shouty/coherentless' characteristics that my friend (the owner) was extremely enthusiastic about. The Super Lumina cable demonstrates to me Naim's approach -- that its possible to have more detail without upsetting the dynamic balance of the music -- I know of course cable upgrade is somewhat different from firmware/software upgrade -- but you get my point anyhow.
I want to be sure that the upgrade is "state-less" -- meaning that the outcome doesn't depend on some prior state of the NDS. Factory reset may be a case in point -- though of course the instructions only suggest doing this at the end -- rather than the beginning. And then there is the confusion over whether the FR is even 'required' at all, even though the Update Guide explicitly says:
"Once the update is complete then you should perform a Factory Reset of your streamer" -- which suggests this is not optional.
I did re-install 4.6 last night -- this was as straight fwd as last time -- except that this time I was watching the update more closely -- and half-conviced mysef that I didn't see the 'DSP Bootloader' step -- but this may have happened very quickly so may have missed it. It is utter desperation that makes one begin to pick up small and probably inconsequential issues such as there -- that in themselves may in fact be completely irrelevant.
So I will give myself another week of investigations -- if no cigar -- then I will revert to 4.4 next weekend draw a line under all this and restore music in my system.
enjoy
ken
The factory reset gave some improvement and on simple acoustic acoustic albums I prefer v4.6. However anything more complex and the balance sounds wrong with a mid range emphasis that wasn’t there before. So while 4.6 does have some positive features, overall I found it less engaging. Going back to 4.4 was a welcome relief.
Jonn posted:ken c posted:probably the wrong thread for me to post as I have not really reached a 'verdict' as such -- I am still trying to come to terms with 4.6 NDS update in my active system.
- Am I hearing more detail?
Yes, definitely...
- Is there more bass?
Yes... but see next point...
- Then, hey, what are you unhappy about?
The "detail" to me sounds like it is not a 'coherent' as in 4.4 -- the extra "clarity" seems to be coming from exaggerated musical lines -- making the music sound somewhat forced, harsh, congested and fatiguing.
Unless things miraculously improve soon, , It is very likely I will downgrade to 4.4, but I will give it a few more days before doing so.
It is fascinating though that firmware/software can make such a difference -- but I guess that is not surprising in this day of increasingly "processed" music.
Ho hum...
enjoy...
ken
Agree totally Ken. After a week with v4.6 I've now gone back to v4.4 on my NDS and the magic has returned.
V4.6 overemphasised parts of the musical spectrum so it sounded unbalanced. Further the soundstage widened so instruments were spread too far left and right like some 1960s stereo demonstration album. Balance has been restored with v4.4 and the emotional connection to the music is back.
Good thing there is the option.
Since everyone on here are using different speakers , how does that play into the equation that some really enjoy the firmware update and others do not ?
It seems that the number of 4.6 detractors is increasing among NDS owners. No wonder the cherished streamer is vanishing. I am a little less anxious to migrate. I will start with UQ2 and stay there for a while. 
Chag -
It would be nice to hear again from Everybody on this issue .
I am enjoying 4.6 with NDS /555DR and my speakers are Kef Blade twos !
Still enjoying the 4.6 update on my NDX > SN2 > NAC A5 > Ovator S-400. I feel the update was an improvement to the system.
Superuniti with PMC 23 and chord odyssey 2 streaming from asset upnp on windows 10 I have updated 2 times to give the 4.6 upgrade a chance, but have finally decided , for me at least, that I prefer 4.4
I am very much enjoying 4.6 and believe it to be a significant improvement on 4.4 on my NDS/555DR/252/SupercapDR/250DR/MA GX300s.
I have been trying 4.6 on my NDS during one week (with factory reset after update). My setup is NDS/555PS/552DR/300/Sonus Faber Cremona M.
The excess of details an clarity became tiring
Now I am back to 4.4 and I am enjoying music again.
Using a favourite CD Rip benchmark, ‘Tim Hardin 3’ , I am very impressed with this upgrade. It is a tribute to Naim’s digital approach, and makes me even more excited about ND555. Also makes NDS a very attractive buy for those who want to upgrade.
Another new library experience!
David O'Higgins posted:Using a favourite CD Rip benchmark, ‘Tim Hardin 3’ , I am very impressed with this upgrade. It is a tribute to Naim’s digital approach, and makes me even more excited about ND555. Also makes NDS a very attractive buy for those who want to upgrade.
Another new library experience!
My experience with my 4.6 firmware update with NDS/555DR, is positive too. Good to here yours is too David .
Just to add to the discussion, I also rolled back to 4.4 a few days ago. My experience has been similar to others, I also found 4.6 overemphasised the bass and midrange, to me it made my system sound slow, a bit woolly and uninvolving. Thankfully rolling back was very easy, just a matter of reinstalling 4.4, I also didn't lose any settings so I'm glad I gave it a try, the sound just wasn't for me.
What I would like to know though is if anyone is aware of any changes between the firmwares other than the DSP change, I found the app more reliable with 4.6 and I'm hoping someone can confirm I wasn't just imagining it? Also if improvements were made with regards to connectivity and if there's enough interest from others, may be Naim could be encouraged to release these with the old DSP, may be as the mysteriously missing v4.5?
Cheers,
Lokesh
Lokesh, is your 555PS a DR unit? I wonder whether this may be a factor with 4.6. The improvements in resolution, airiness and texture is not at the cost of loosing cohesion, involvement or PRaT.
Chag -
Hi Chag
It is a DR, same with the amps.
I am a bit confused, so many people are having positive results, but for me it was definitely a sound I couldn't live with long term and in all honesty from my experience not like a Naim component.
There were improvements in the amount and extension of bass, the midrange also got fuller which made more instruments prominent than with 4.4 but it also softened their attack, this to me definitely had a detrimental affect on PRaT. It's hard to explain but as examples, a searing lead guitar, a great drum break or a tuneful bass line were just another instrument in the mix, where as with 4.4 when the recording required they'd be in the spotlight, driving the song along and grabbing your attention.
It would be nice to hear what everyone else is hearing, but I think it's possible 4.6 is just not for me, I definitely gained a new appreciation for my system when I rolled back. Unfortunately this was accompanied with the frustration of the app losing connectivity or not finding my NAS every 10 minutes, so hoping to get an answer about any changes to the networking in the new firmware if anyone knows?
Cheers,
Loks
loks posted:Hi Chag
It is a DR, same with the amps.
I am a bit confused, so many people are having positive results, but for me it was definitely a sound I couldn't live with long term and in all honesty from my experience not like a Naim component.
There were improvements in the amount and extension of bass, the midrange also got fuller which made more instruments prominent than with 4.4 but it also softened their attack, this to me definitely had a detrimental affect on PRaT. It's hard to explain but as examples, a searing lead guitar, a great drum break or a tuneful bass line were just another instrument in the mix, where as with 4.4 when the recording required they'd be in the spotlight, driving the song along and grabbing your attention.
It would be nice to hear what everyone else is hearing, but I think it's possible 4.6 is just not for me, I definitely gained a new appreciation for my system when I rolled back. Unfortunately this was accompanied with the frustration of the app losing connectivity or not finding my NAS every 10 minutes, so hoping to get an answer about any changes to the networking in the new firmware if anyone knows?Cheers,
Loks
I think it is proof we hear differently!
musicfan51 posted:loks posted:Hi Chag
It is a DR, same with the amps.
I am a bit confused, so many people are having positive results, but for me it was definitely a sound I couldn't live with long term and in all honesty from my experience not like a Naim component.
There were improvements in the amount and extension of bass, the midrange also got fuller which made more instruments prominent than with 4.4 but it also softened their attack, this to me definitely had a detrimental affect on PRaT. It's hard to explain but as examples, a searing lead guitar, a great drum break or a tuneful bass line were just another instrument in the mix, where as with 4.4 when the recording required they'd be in the spotlight, driving the song along and grabbing your attention.
It would be nice to hear what everyone else is hearing, but I think it's possible 4.6 is just not for me, I definitely gained a new appreciation for my system when I rolled back. Unfortunately this was accompanied with the frustration of the app losing connectivity or not finding my NAS every 10 minutes, so hoping to get an answer about any changes to the networking in the new firmware if anyone knows?Cheers,
Loks
I think it is proof we hear differently!
Definitely.
I actually wasn't expecting or wanting any changes to the sound of my system with 4.6, it would be great if I did hear the same improvement as others, but I was happy with the sound of my system before the upgrade and still am after the roll back, so not really disappointed. I was hoping for a more consistent experience with the app, 4.6 seemed to have brought this with my NAS and NDS being found almost 100% of the time over the two weeks it was installed, unfortunately after rolling back I've lost connectivity a number of times over the last two days. Could just be a coincidence but I guess a mail to Naim is the best way to confirm.
I agree we do hear differently, but it's not a good thing if people were happy with the sound from there equipment, then after a firmware update that changes, I myself, and it's only my opinion, a company should not alter the sound quality through a firmware update, Naim is the longest company I have stuck with for the sound they produce, had many makes of equipment in the past until I discovered Naim, the 4.6 update changed the sound in such a way that I could not listen to it for any length of time, altered all that I like about the Naim sound
mezza posted:I agree we do hear differently, but it's not a good thing if people were happy with the sound from there equipment, then after a firmware update that changes, I myself, and it's only my opinion, a company should not alter the sound quality through a firmware update, Naim is the longest company I have stuck with for the sound they produce, had many makes of equipment in the past until I discovered Naim, the 4.6 update changed the sound in such a way that I could not listen to it for any length of time, altered all that I like about the Naim sound
Wow! Some really love the update, others really really dislike it. That is fascinating to me !
loks posted:What I would like to know though is if anyone is aware of any changes between the firmwares other than the DSP change, I found the app more reliable with 4.6 and I'm hoping someone can confirm I wasn't just imagining it? Also if improvements were made with regards to connectivity and if there's enough interest from others, may be Naim could be encouraged to release these with the old DSP, may be as the mysteriously missing v4.5?
Cheers,
Lokesh
There are significant changes in the firmware, particularly around multiroom connectivity with the new platform streamers. Improvements have also been made to improve stability and network discovery, which is probably why the new firmware and app work more reliably in your case.
When the functionality is changed, to achieve the above, the SQ will very likely change, which is why the DSP is tweaked to get the best possible sound from the new firmware. When we were beta testing we were all in agreement that 4.6 was the best across all the legacy platform streamers. So it’s really a choice of new or old, and mixing and matching functionality and DSP is highly unlikely to be practical.
It’s interesting that some people are not finding 4.6 to their liking. It’s been wonderful with my 272, which is now more engaging and musical than ever. It seems to bring out the groove and passion of performances in a much more realistic way than before. That’s why it seems so odd that some people are finding it dull and woolly.
One thing I found with testing is that when you are critically listening - which we have to do - it’s hard to relax and just enjoy the music. So after the initial critical listening I just get on and play music. After a couple of weeks it’s then possible to say if it’s ok or not. It might be worth reinstalling 4.6 and forgetting about it for a month. It may just grow on you. You can always roll back again if it doesn’t.
Hungryhalibut posted:It’s interesting that some people are not finding 4.6 to their liking. It’s been wonderful with my 272, which is now more engaging and musical than ever. It seems to bring out the groove and passion of performances in a much more realistic way than before. That’s why it seems so odd that some people are finding it dull and woolly.
One thing I found with testing is that when you are critically listening - which we have to do - it’s hard to relax and just enjoy the music. So after the initial critical listening I just get on and play music. After a couple of weeks it’s then possible to say if it’s ok or not. It might be worth reinstalling 4.6 and forgetting about it for a month. It may just grow on you. You can always roll back again if it doesn’t.
It is interesting that 4.6 has split opinions (much like the beta testing going back to 4.4 variants), NDX on the whole agreed whereas NDS were less in agreement. I believe 272 is a different DSP so maybe best not bring that into the mix. But with my NDX 4.6 is the one I'm happy with.
Re testing & critical listening; you sum it up just perfectly for me. I have a few favourite/well known tracks that I've loaded on a 'test' album file, treble, bass, dynamics, sound stage, timbre, clarity etc & including the bad stuff, sibilance, screech etc. Thats my first impression, then I sit back & play some serious & some background & get the opinion of a significant other. My problem is I get used to what I hear & it becomes the norm. ITR it was interesting to recheck previous releases.
Similar divided opinion on the latest 2.6 FW on the new Uniti range, nobody is complaining it's dull and woolly though - quite the opposite in fact, many find it too clinical and bright. As above I have been giving it more time and although I have a foot in each camp it's growing on me, I may revert to previous 2.3 FW yet but I'll give 2.6 a good run before deciding and even if I do revert I may well find that I'll return to the latest 2.6. It's interesting this thing about giving it more listening time and it growing on you, obviously no technical changes are happening just your ears and brain are adapting, I wonder if is this what is really happening with apparent cable or unit burn-in phenomena etc - nothing technical or physically actually changes but you find that it sounds better and better over time - just a thought!
I plan to organise to listen to a different NDS 4.6 firmware based system (of course looking for one where the owner is happy with the upgrade). Then I will hopefully be able to compare the musical DNA vs. my own NDS4.6. To what extent it will matter that the underlying systems will likely be quite different is just a reality I have to somehow accommodate I guess...
enjoy...
ken
I was perfectly happy with v4.4 on my NDS, tried v4.6, didn’t like what it did to the sound so went back to 4.4 and happy again. I’m not at all bothered that 4.6 didn’t work for me.
I certainly wasn’t prepared to put up with v4.6 for more than a few days to see if I might “ get use to the sound.”
ken c posted:I plan to organise to listen to a different NDS 4.6 firmware based system (of course looking for one where the owner is happy with the upgrade). Then I will hopefully be able to compare the musical DNA vs. my own NDS4.6. To what extent it will matter that the underlying systems will likely be quite different is just a reality I have to somehow accommodate I guess...
enjoy...
ken
I am listening now to some Jazz guitar and I do not hear the issues people are complaining about . This is so interesting that some love the improvement and others really dislike it . It sounds very much improved to me . NDS/555DR using ripped CDs to UnitiCore
Jonn posted:I was perfectly happy with v4.4 on my NDS, tried v4.6, didn’t like what it did to the sound so went back to 4.4 and happy again. I’m not at all bothered that 4.6 didn’t work for me.
I certainly wasn’t prepared to put up with v4.6 for more than a few days to see if I might “ get use to the sound.”
I bet the new Naim Streamers will sound closer to the 4.6 firmware version than 4.4. I wonder if that means some Naim fans may not like the sound of the new Naim streamers? Others will love them.