The 4.6 verdict

DaveBk posted:

ken c posted:

ken c posted:

anyone here 'close' to Herts and happy with NDS4.6 willing to allow me to come over and have a listen, please...

enjoy...

ken

doesn't have to be that 'close' ... 

enjoy

ken

I’m just outside Milton Keynes. Is that close?

 

Wow! Thanks for responding DaveBk. Can I trouble you to email me please? My address (slightly disguised from harvesters) is in my profile.

enjoy...

ken

ken c posted:

DaveBk posted:

ken c posted:

ken c posted:

anyone here 'close' to Herts and happy with NDS4.6 willing to allow me to come over and have a listen, please...

enjoy...

ken

doesn't have to be that 'close' ... 

enjoy

ken

I’m just outside Milton Keynes. Is that close?

 

Wow! Thanks for responding DaveBk. Can I trouble you to email me please? My address (slightly disguised from harvesters) is in my profile.

enjoy...

ken

Email sent Ken. 

Anyone fancy a trip to Dublin. Happy to spin a few tracks (or quite a number) on 4.6 on my NDS/555DR, with Asset/RPi. Can also show the Roon integration through the Sonore UPnP Bridge.

Simon

I just had my Naim dealer over to the house with a potential client to hear NDS/555Dr combo with Kef Blade twos ! The couple and the Naim dealer all commented in how good it sounded !  (Naim dealer did not have Blade twos on demo so he asked to bring them over ) ! So I guess the 4.6 firmware passed the audition !  I think Naim front end works well with the Blade twos !  I can not get myself to do anything but listen to music today. Very addicted to the sound ! 

4.6: my findings having updated 2x unitiqute2 and 1x superuniti a couple of weeks back.

SU: delayed as the SU was not in it's normal room until yesterday. now i have heard some familiar music i'm very pleased with the extra detail and dynamics (heard a few little things i'd never noticed before) no more or less enjoyable. Overall a step up.

Qute2: Not so easy to define. Seems to be a lot quieter, less dynamic perhaps but again a little more detailed without sharpness. Possibly a sideways move.

Graham Clarke posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Graham, I was at Naim yesterday and we were discussing the firmware updates. As well as testing with Focals, they test with Ovators, and some SL2s that they still have at the factory. They test with DBLs too. 

That's good to know but doesn't explain why it sounds so poor on my set up.  I spent an hour trying to convince myself that it was better.  After said hour I'd actually lost interest in listening to it (which never normally happens).  Thinking it was just me, that I might not be in the right frame of mind I left it a few days and tried again.  Same result.  Got my wife to audition it without any explanations or comments from me and she reached the same conclusion.  Went back to 4.4 and all the foot tapping was back.

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

Alley Cat posted:

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

i too definitely do not believe this difference is anything to do with 'personal taste' and I believe I have been saying it all along...

enjoy...

/ken

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

i too definitely do not believe this difference is anything to do with 'personal taste' and I believe I have been saying it all along...

enjoy...

/ken

Some code is corrupted in some people’s Naim firmware ya think? 

musicfan51 posted:

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

i too definitely do not believe this difference is anything to do with 'personal taste' and I believe I have been saying it all along...

enjoy...

/ken

Some code is corrupted in some people’s Naim firmware ya think? 

Could be, who knows, I'd assume there'd be some kind of checksum for the updates though to avoid bricking players with corrupted firmware downloads.

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

i too definitely do not believe this difference is anything to do with 'personal taste' and I believe I have been saying it all along...

enjoy...

/ken

Apologies Ken if you were the source, but it's a conclusion I reached recently -in the other thread the differences are too stark, too night and day to simply dismiss on the basis of personal preference - if they are intended they completely alter the characteristics of the audio replay and I just can't see such a huge change would have been acceptable when they potentially make a system difficult to listen to for extended periods.

Alley Cat posted:

musicfan51 posted:

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

i too definitely do not believe this difference is anything to do with 'personal taste' and I believe I have been saying it all along...

enjoy...

/ken

Some code is corrupted in some people’s Naim firmware ya think? 

Could be, who knows, I'd assume there'd be some kind of checksum for the updates though to avoid bricking players with corrupted firmware downloads.

It is a puzzling issue . One that needs an answer !

Glad  I like the 4.6 update . But I can imagine it would be pretty bad to hate sound of your system after doing the 4.6 update ! I would be unhappy too! 

Alley Cat posted:

musicfan51 posted:

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

i too definitely do not believe this difference is anything to do with 'personal taste' and I believe I have been saying it all along...

enjoy...

/ken

Some code is corrupted in some people’s Naim firmware ya think? 

Could be, who knows, I'd assume there'd be some kind of checksum for the updates though to avoid bricking players with corrupted firmware downloads.

would have thought so too...

but of course I don't know for a fact whether corrupt data is the issue here, or a myriad of other causes...

enjoy...

ken

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

musicfan51 posted:

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

i too definitely do not believe this difference is anything to do with 'personal taste' and I believe I have been saying it all along...

enjoy...

/ken

Some code is corrupted in some people’s Naim firmware ya think? 

Could be, who knows, I'd assume there'd be some kind of checksum for the updates though to avoid bricking players with corrupted firmware downloads.

would have thought so too...

but of course I don't know for a fact whether corrupt data is the issue here, or a myriad of other causes...

enjoy...

ken

It is a real head scratcher !  Hope somehow it is figured out! 

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

musicfan51 posted:

ken c posted:

Alley Cat posted:

This really is bizarre - opinions are so polarised with new and old devices.

There is a separate new Uniti device thread and those of us who dislike our update (2.6) have complained of exactly the same things - unengaging, losing interest in listening to several tracks in a row on an album, then reverting we get back to the musical sound we liked.  The new update adds bags of detail for me but adds harshness/brittle feel to female vocals in particular and there seems to be a complete tonal change with a very subdued low end/lack of bass and simply a loss of power/authority in music where those ranges are important to propel the music along.

I think you may have commented separately (possibly someone else) but I reached the same conclusion that the difference is far too pronounced to put down to simple personal preferences.

i too definitely do not believe this difference is anything to do with 'personal taste' and I believe I have been saying it all along...

enjoy...

/ken

Some code is corrupted in some people’s Naim firmware ya think? 

Could be, who knows, I'd assume there'd be some kind of checksum for the updates though to avoid bricking players with corrupted firmware downloads.

would have thought so too...

but of course I don't know for a fact whether corrupt data is the issue here, or a myriad of other causes...

enjoy...

ken

Wish someone from Naim would go to your house for a listen Ken! 

in truth it started with the app. /music services  ,then the introduction to the new range. That's seemed to be rush into production . Software 4.6  etc seems to upset a lot of fans.Surely if the new classic streamers come out with issues that will the last straw    Ive demoed the nova several  times and it is it great sounding product which is on my list ,running  without the power amp..    The muso qb is also a excellent portable unit that we use in different rooms and in the garden when the sun shines

I have a ND5XS. With the 4.6 update it is like having aan upgraded machine.

I don’t know where to start, but the bass is deeper and tighter. I hear bass notes I never heard before. Listening to Mahler 1, Bernstein with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, a recording I know by heart is very different. Far wider soundstage, more controlled dynamics, a clarity I have never heard before, the accoustics of the Hall in very quiet passages, the sound of the harp, the distinctive voices of the instruments without losing the cohesion needed to hear the orchestra as a whole. The sound of the trumpets.

I think “control” is the word. One would have to buy more expensive equipment to get more control, but Naim has given it to me through a software update. 

I can imagine that people have great difficulty with the more aggressive mid range though. The sound demands attention. But it is far less muddy than the previous firmware. A trade-off I can live with.

JMTENNAPEL, spot-on.

It's like differentiating any instument ,especially some in the bass practically unheard before , and rediscover their contribution on the whole.

I'd say the mid bass bump veiled a lot the performance and messed tonal balance a bottleneck that was definitely clear the sooner I experimented and set on a second hicap so as to have the DR only on preamp. 

I've just reread this thread and jotted down positive and negative reactions to the 4.6 upgrade on the NDS:

16 unique people posted, expressing an opinion.

10 were positive (62.5%) 6 were negative (37.5%)

Of the 4 people who have a Naim speaker (SL2, S400, S600, DBL), 100% were negative.

Of the 9 people who have other speakers, only 1 was negative (11.1%), but 8 were positive (88.9%).

Of the 3 people who I can't see a speaker in their profile 1 was negative (33.3%) and 2 were positive (66.7%).

So. hardly a statistically significant sample, but interesting nonetheless. 4.6 does not seem to suit people with Naim speakers.

If GST, Musicfan51, and Simes_Pep care to reveal their speakers I'll rerun the stats.

Dave

DaveBk posted:

I've just reread this thread and jotted down positive and negative reactions to the 4.6 upgrade on the NDS:

16 unique people posted, expressing an opinion.

10 were positive (62.5%) 6 were negative (37.5%)

Of the 4 people who have a Naim speaker (SL2, S400, S600, DBL), 100% were negative.

Of the 9 people who have other speakers, only 1 was negative (11.1%), but 8 were positive (88.9%).

Of the 3 people who I can't see a speaker in their profile 1 was negative (33.3%) and 2 were positive (66.7%).

So. hardly a statistically significant sample, but interesting nonetheless. 4.6 does not seem to suit people with Naim speakers.

If GST, Musicfan51, and Simes_Pep care to reveal their speakers I'll rerun the stats.

Dave

 

very interesting analysis Dave, hopefully more NDS 4.6 owners will report so we have a bigger sample. I seem to recall that active vs passive may be factor also. I am active and I know one other who is also active (with Statement preamp) and doesn't like 4.6 -- and there may be a 3rd.  I have to say though that, despite these apparent faint 'patterns',  right now I'm finding it hard  to believe 4.6 SQ depends on host system - as that could be considered a straight betrayal of the owners.

I am kind of warming up to the data corruption scenario -- though I would have thought, as mentioned by another poster earlier, that this ought not to be an issue with devices such as checksums, etc. Buy hey, who knows... 

enjoy

ken

I think it may be associated with speaker and/ or active systems. The two things I most dislike about 4.6 are firstly that it changes the balance with the mid range too forward and overemphasised,  and secondly the sound stage is artificially widened so the sound is more left/right speaker rather than in the middle.

Both these changes could be affected by how the SNAXO was originally set up for my DBLs and the fact that there is not much scope for repositioning the speakers as they need to be back against the wall either flat or with very slight toe-in.

DaveBk posted:

Of the 4 people who have a Naim speaker (SL2, S400, S600, DBL), 100% were negative.

Well I use DBL and I didn’t think I’d posted negatively. If it reads that way, it wasn’t meant to be negative. As I said, it’s difficult to be sure as time marches on - I forget what 4.4 was like now and I cannot easily do a back to back trial. 

Jonn posted:

I think it may be associated with speaker and/ or active systems. The two things I most dislike about 4.6 are firstly that it changes the balance with the mid range too forward and overemphasised,  and secondly the sound stage is artificially widened so the sound is more left/right speaker rather than in the middle.

Both these changes could be affected by how the SNAXO was originally set up for my DBLs and the fact that there is not much scope for repositioning the speakers as they need to be back against the wall either flat or with very slight toe-in.

.. and yet those that are happy with NDS4.6 say more or less the exact opposite?   On some tracks, I felt my NDS4,6 bass was out of tune -- and more or less as if some harmonics were missing. But I also know folks reporting the exact opposite with their NDSs. All this lending weight to host system dependency?  Dunno... As i said, I refuse to believe this is all personal preferences...

I seem to recall someone who as close to the beta process mentioning that this NDS 4.6FW was tested across a variety of platforms, including active, and a variety of speakers including Naim speakers ...

enjoy...

ken

DaveBk posted:

I

Of the 4 people who have a Naim speaker (SL2, S400, S600, DBL), 100% were negative.

 

 

Update to 80%, I have active Ovator 600s with NDS and have experienced a clear improvement to SQ.

[@mention:1566878603872123] - Agree the patterns are slight, and active operation may also be a factor. I've heard Grahams active S600s so know his system and saw he was not pleased with 4.6. I find it hard to believe its a corruption... I've worked in software dev for 30+ years and whenever I have had a corrupted file it's either refused to load with checksum failures or crashed spectacularly the second it was run. I suppose if it was a corruption in the IIR filter coefficients then I suppose it could work, but have a very odd filter response. Who knows, I guess we will have to wait for Naim to opine.

[@mention:1566878603873289] - Sorry, missed your response as it was in a different thread. 

[@mention:1566878603938484] - Sorry, missed your post in my original analysis.

Maybe it is active systems - I wonder if the Snaxo settings need a tweak from standard?

Stats now at 67% positive, 33% negative, with less of an emphasis on Naim speakers.

Dave

ken c posted:

I seem to recall someone who as close to the beta process mentioning that this NDS 4.6FW was tested across a variety of platforms, including active, and a variety of speakers including Naim speakers ...

 

That's very true. Naim have released different versions of the firmware for each range (basically necesitated by the different hardware platforms). Each variant was tested for sound quality for each product in a range of systems and tweaked accordingly. Beta testers have experienced many changes of firmware over the last year or two and I don't recall any reactions as extreme as some on this thread (that's not to belittle or deny what some people are hearing). My recollection is that 4.6 was pretty much unanimously preferred though all final decisions on  sound quality are taken by Naim's golden ears.