The 4.6 verdict

Posted by: Jack From Adelaide on 14 April 2018

Well, it is now a week since I updated my NDX to use the new 4.6 firmware. My principle purpose was to try and improve the stuttering I had on TIDAL and I didn't expect anything else. The playback through TIDAL is vastly improved. There, post done. WAIT there's more.

What I didn't expect from the description was any noticeable change in sound quality. I don't have a multi-room system (would that I could afford such a luxury!) but I do have quite a good main music system, which includes an NDX.

What I found after the first few albums was that the bass was tighter and more "tuneful". Then I noticed higher resolution. This became apparent almost immediately because my music room is next door to my Mother In Law's bedroom and I usually have to either use headphones or listen at painfully low levels so as not to disturb her. I was reading a book and kept having my attention drawn to whatever I was playing. The instruments and the singers were literally leaping out of the speakers into the room. It was uncanny. At this very moment I am listening to K. D Lang's "Hymns of the 49th Parallel" on UpNP server (minim server - rendered to WAV) and the piano in Hallelujah has this wonderful dynamic presentation, the loud and quiet passages are rendered more noticeably. K.D.'s voice and her exquisite control of the pacing and phrasing is there to hear. In a way that I have never noticed before. A couple of days ago it was Imogen Heap and her Ellipse album on TIDAL. Again the sense of her being in the room was remarkable. At some points it made the hair on my arms stand up. I have listened to E. Power Biggs playing Handel, the bizarre and ultimately rewarding Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith's "The Kid", Dami Im's new album "I Hear a Song" and Ryan Teagues "Block Boundaries". Every album is surrendering new details and expression that I have never heard before.

For those of you as ancient as me it is equivalent to the first time I put a moving coil cartridge on my turntable: I am rushing to listen to old favourites and new music to see what it sounds like now! In some cases I am discovering that they aren't as well recorded as I thought (Scartaglen's "This Nights Fun" was closed in and you could hear each microphone feed was in a separate acoustic) others are better than I ever suspected.

This upgrade was extremely painful to load (see my recent posts on the issue) but it was well worth the effort. Here is the magic of digital audio: a simple firmware upgrade is like a multi-thousand dollar improvement in your system.

My advice: If you can't load the firmware after an hour of effort, simply take your gear to your dealer and offer them $20 or something to do it for you. It is well worth the effort.

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by simes_pep

DaveBk posted:
I've just reread this thread and jotted down positive and negative reactions to the 4.6 upgrade on the NDS:
16 unique people posted, expressing an opinion.
10 were positive (62.5%) 6 were negative (37.5%)
Of the 4 people who have a Naim speaker (SL2, S400, S600, DBL), 100% were negative.
Of the 9 people who have other speakers, only 1 was negative (11.1%), but 8 were positive (88.9%).
Of the 3 people who I can't see a speaker in their profile 1 was negative (33.3%) and 2 were positive (66.7%).
So. hardly a statistically significant sample, but interesting nonetheless. 4.6 does not seem to suit people with Naim speakers.
If GST, Musicfan51, and Simes_Pep care to reveal their speakers I'll rerun the stats.
Dave

Sorry, I thought it was in the profile, maybe it is just the signature - I have B&W 805 Signatures, on the B&W stands which are filled, on Ti Pulsar points. They are driven by a Sim Audio Moon Amp through Harmonic Technology cabling - so very un-Naim centric.

However, I have been running the Beta firmware for a number of years now, including the 4.4.73 and 4.4.74 that formed the basis of the 4.5 and 4.6 releases, which ultimately became the production 4.6 release. So during this time, I have moved, set the system up in a new location, updated the ND5XS to the NDS, upgraded the XP5XS to a 555DR, upgraded N805s to the 805 Signatures, applied some basic room treatment and more important undertaken changes to speaker placement, angle of toe-in, adjusting the distance between and distance from the wall etc. subject to critical listening. (same piece of a track - move 1-2mm, listen again, move back, listen, move again, it is better/worse process)

So my exposure to the 4.4 release was on a very different system, in a different location (different room size, ceiling height etc).

As such, I don't believe my vote/preference should count as it is not a valid release to release comparison.

Also, if you are running a system that has been carefully setup in terms of active crossovers, speaker placement, room treatments etc. then a change to the DSP stage of the DAC, streaming processing is going to have an effect on the sound experienced. Your system was matched to the settings at the time, unless you want to reset and start again, in terms of the setup following the change of one variable in a complex model, then why not let the update pass and stick with the sound you have on the release the setup was based on, and stop tormenting yourselves.

Simon.

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by ken c

DaveBk posted:
[@mention:1566878603872123] - Agree the patterns are slight, and active operation may also be a factor. I've heard Grahams active S600s so know his system and saw he was not pleased with 4.6. I find it hard to believe its a corruption... I've worked in software dev for 30+ years and whenever I have had a corrupted file it's either refused to load with checksum failures or crashed spectacularly the second it was run. I suppose if it was a corruption in the IIR filter coefficients then I suppose it could work, but have a very odd filter response. Who knows, I guess we will have to wait for Naim to opine.
[@mention:1566878603873289] - Sorry, missed your response as it was in a different thread.
[@mention:1566878603938484] - Sorry, missed your post in my original analysis.
Maybe it is active systems - I wonder if the Snaxo settings need a tweak from standard?
Stats now at 67% positive, 33% negative, with less of an emphasis on Naim speakers.
Dave

would be good to hear from some more active users. I don't recall any feedback from an active user with NDS4.6 but I may have just missed it. I would have thought though, that if this upgrade necessitated snaxo242 setting adjustments -- naim audio would mention this somewhere in the update notes -- in the same vein as the factory reset?

I tend to agree with you on unlikelihood of checksum error(s) - this could be a red herring -- but one that might 'explain' this apparent SQ variability.

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by musicfan51

DaveBk posted:
I've just reread this thread and jotted down positive and negative reactions to the 4.6 upgrade on the NDS:
16 unique people posted, expressing an opinion.
10 were positive (62.5%) 6 were negative (37.5%)
Of the 4 people who have a Naim speaker (SL2, S400, S600, DBL), 100% were negative.
Of the 9 people who have other speakers, only 1 was negative (11.1%), but 8 were positive (88.9%).
Of the 3 people who I can't see a speaker in their profile 1 was negative (33.3%) and 2 were positive (66.7%).
So. hardly a statistically significant sample, but interesting nonetheless. 4.6 does not seem to suit people with Naim speakers.
If GST, Musicfan51, and Simes_Pep care to reveal their speakers I'll rerun the stats.
Dave

Dave I had mentioned a few times I use Kef Blade twos . So you can put that into the data . Thank you .

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by Jonn

Ken, are you happy with the sound using v4.4? While some clearly hear benefits with 4.6 others including me find the v4.4 preferable so I don’t feel I’m missing out.

I spent quite some time adjusting the SNAXO pots to optimise the sound with DBLs. Unless Naim recommend it, I’m reluctant to start again on the off chance that readjustment is necessary to sound good with v4.6.

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by ken c

Jonn posted:
Ken, are you happy with the sound using v4.4? While some clearly hear benefits with 4.6 others including me find the v4.4 preferable so I don’t feel I’m missing out.
I spent quite some time adjusting the SNAXO pots to optimise the sound with DBLs. Unless Naim recommend it, I’m reluctant to start again on the off chance that readjustment is necessary to sound good with v4.6.

I did say in some earlier postings that I am and remain very happy with my NDS4.4 -- and have never had to make any adjustments to my snaxo242 settings. I kind of doubt what I am hearing is anything to do with cross-over settings -- but it may come to that.

Apparently, Naim encourage customers to be up-to-date with firmware updates -- that's as far as I have heard... That would be the concern with staying with 4.4 -- but if I want music in my office, I will have no choice but to stay with this old version -- unless I figure out a way to make 4.6 sound good in my system...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by David O'Higgins

David O'Higgins posted:
Using a favourite CD Rip benchmark, ‘Tim Hardin 3’ , I am very impressed with this upgrade. It is a tribute to Naim’s digital approach, and makes me even more excited about ND555. Also makes NDS a very attractive buy for those who want to upgrade.
Another new library experience!

Having had a week to listen to a wide range of music, I am still completely positive about 4.6, and I have SL2s. Just listening to last year’s Sergeant Pepper 24bit remaster - to me it’s a whole new experience!

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by Slim68

DaveBk posted:
I've just reread this thread and jotted down positive and negative reactions to the 4.6 upgrade on the NDS:
16 unique people posted, expressing an opinion.
10 were positive (62.5%) 6 were negative (37.5%)
Of the 4 people who have a Naim speaker (SL2, S400, S600, DBL), 100% were negative.
Of the 9 people who have other speakers, only 1 was negative (11.1%), but 8 were positive (88.9%).
Of the 3 people who I can't see a speaker in their profile 1 was negative (33.3%) and 2 were positive (66.7%).
So. hardly a statistically significant sample, but interesting nonetheless. 4.6 does not seem to suit people with Naim speakers.
If GST, Musicfan51, and Simes_Pep care to reveal their speakers I'll rerun the stats.
Dave

HI Dave,

S400 owner here, not sure if I am in your count of Naim speaker owners, I posted positive on this thread. I love what 4.6 has done in my system.

KR, Simon,

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by musicfan51

Slim68 posted:
DaveBk posted:
I've just reread this thread and jotted down positive and negative reactions to the 4.6 upgrade on the NDS:
16 unique people posted, expressing an opinion.
10 were positive (62.5%) 6 were negative (37.5%)
Of the 4 people who have a Naim speaker (SL2, S400, S600, DBL), 100% were negative.
Of the 9 people who have other speakers, only 1 was negative (11.1%), but 8 were positive (88.9%).
Of the 3 people who I can't see a speaker in their profile 1 was negative (33.3%) and 2 were positive (66.7%).
So. hardly a statistically significant sample, but interesting nonetheless. 4.6 does not seem to suit people with Naim speakers.
If GST, Musicfan51, and Simes_Pep care to reveal their speakers I'll rerun the stats.
Dave

HI Dave,
S400 owner here, not sure if I am in your count of Naim speaker owners, I posted positive on this thread. I love what 4.6 has done in my system.
KR, Simon,

That is great to hear Simon!

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by ken c

those happy with SQ running NDS4.6 in an active Naim system please step forward?

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by GerryMcg

I am very happy with Active 600s.

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by DaveBk

It seems my hypothesis is disproven... thanks for the further info. I’ll update my stats with the new details tomorrow and see if anything else emerges.

Posted on: 29 April 2018 by musicfan51

Thanks for doing the stats !

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by GST

System: NDS/555PSDR, LP12, NAC252/SupercapDR, NAP250DR, Acoustic Energy AE1 SE/REL G1

Happy with the sound of CD5/HDX/NDAC/NDS(4.4)
but NDS(4.6) is not for me, it sounds a bit steril, the 'emotions' are gone.

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by Mike-B

I spent a fews hours last evening with a Linn owner friend listening to my NDX; he has been reading the posts on 4.6 & was interested. We listened to 4.6, then 4.4 & then back to 4.6. He was expecting the differences to be a lot more pronounced as a result of reading the forum posts, but was very positive that 4.6 would be his choice. That is a unanimous vote - Me, Mrs Me & Mr Linn owner for 4.6 on NDX on my system.

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by ken c

A member of this forum has kindly agreed for me to visit him in a couple of week and listen to his NDS4.6 - which he is of course happy with.

i'm really looking fwd to that...

enjoy...

/ken

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by musicfan51

GST posted:
System: NDS/555PSDR, LP12, NAC252/SupercapDR, NAP250DR, Acoustic Energy AE1 SE/REL G1
Happy with the sound of CD5/HDX/NDAC/NDS(4.4)
but NDS(4.6) is not for me, it sounds a bit steril, the 'emotions' are gone.

That sounds like personal preference than anything!

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by nigelb

ken c posted:
A member of this forum has kindly agreed for me to visit him in a couple of week and listen to his NDS4.6 - which he is of course happy with.
i'm really looking fwd to that...
enjoy...
/ken

Very interested to hear your thoughts about 4.6 in your system vs 4.6 in the forum member's system. If you hear a positive difference, this might shed some light if the disparity in opinion is sytem dependent or that their might just be a problem with some of the 4.6 installations.

As you say Ken, enjoy.

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by musicfan51

ken c posted:
A member of this forum has kindly agreed for me to visit him in a couple of week and listen to his NDS4.6 - which he is of course happy with.
i'm really looking fwd to that...
enjoy...
/ken

I hope you figure out why your system sounds so bad Ken .

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by ken c

musicfan51 posted:
ken c posted:
A member of this forum has kindly agreed for me to visit him in a couple of week and listen to his NDS4.6 - which he is of course happy with.
i'm really looking fwd to that...
enjoy...
/ken
I hope you figure out why your system sounds so bad Ken .

Just to be clear and avoid confusion.

My 'system' doesn't sound at all bad -- in fact it sounds very good indeed, on all sources except NDS4.6. NDS4.4 (which is where I am now) sounds as great as it was from the time I installed it.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by ken c

nigelb posted:
ken c posted:
A member of this forum has kindly agreed for me to visit him in a couple of week and listen to his NDS4.6 - which he is of course happy with.
i'm really looking fwd to that...
enjoy...
/ken
Very interested to hear your thoughts about 4.6 in your system vs 4.6 in the forum member's system. If you hear a positive difference, this might shed some light if the disparity in opinion is sytem dependent or that their might just be a problem with some of the 4.6 installations.
As you say Ken, enjoy.

Thanks Nigel -- "shed light" is very much what I'm after... hopefully I will be more enlightened after this listening session.

Great that there was someone on this forum who kindly offered this opportunity.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by musicfan51

ken c posted:
musicfan51 posted:
ken c posted:
A member of this forum has kindly agreed for me to visit him in a couple of week and listen to his NDS4.6 - which he is of course happy with.
i'm really looking fwd to that...
enjoy...
/ken
I hope you figure out why your system sounds so bad Ken .
Just to be clear and avoid confusion.
My 'system' doesn't sound at all bad -- in fact it sounds very good indeed, on all sources except NDS4.6. NDS4.4 (which is where I am now) sounds as great as it was from the time I installed it.
enjoy
ken

To clarify my statement , I hope you figure out why the NDS sounds unsatisfactory in your system after the 4.6 firmware update !

That better ?

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by Trevor Wilson

Hello all

Just to say that we aren't ignoring this thread and we at Naim did perform extensive and considerable listening tests internally and in our own homes, PLUS the feedback from those that were involved at beta forum level. Whilst the feedback at that time was consistent and positive, and we ourselves are enjoying the new release - we aren't ignoring our customers with a differing view on 4.6 release, just as we aren't ignoring those few customers on the 2.6 release that have raised concerns. To be clear and for the avoidance of implication the comments on 4.6 and the comments on 2.6 are separate systems.

These are very complex systems, with a multitude of variables and configurations - but considering our testing and listening I am frankly surprised that some people aren't happy, so this warrants us at Naim taking time to consider and analyse this.

Trevor

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by Graham Clarke

Trevor Wilson posted:
Hello all
Just to say that we aren't ignoring this thread and we at Naim did perform extensive and considerable listening tests internally and in our own homes, PLUS the feedback from those that were involved at beta forum level. Whilst the feedback at that time was consistent and positive, and we ourselves are enjoying the new release - we aren't ignoring our customers with a differing view on 4.6 release, just as we aren't ignoring those few customers on the 2.6 release that have raised concerns. To be clear and for the avoidance of implication the comments on 4.6 and the comments on 2.6 are separate systems.
These are very complex systems, with a multitude of variables and configurations - but considering our testing and listening I am frankly surprised that some people aren't happy, so this warrants us at Naim taking time to consider and analyse this.
Trevor

Trevor,

Thanks for spending the time to explain that. I've been a Naim user for about 22 years now and this is honestly the first time that something billed as an improvement by Naim has not worked out that way for me.

I have a fellow Naim user with a broadly similar system who likes 4.6 on NDS hopefully visiting in a few weeks. He's already said that he likes the 4.6 sound so I am curious as to whether he feels the same with my system. We plan to start on 4.4 and then update to 4.6.

If he says he likes the change then I'm willing to chalk it up to personal preferences, so it will be an interesting comparison. If he doesn't like it and Naim would like to investigate further I'm happy to host a home visit. I'm based in Aylesbury. I realise it is difficult/nearly impossible for you to mimic every combination of system and scenario that your equipment is used in.

I'm only being vocal about it because I'm thinking "where's my fantastic Naim sound gone?!?"

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by DaveBk

Let’s hope that after a multi way cross verification of our respective experiences we can shed some light onto why this change has divided opinion.

Posted on: 30 April 2018 by Alley Cat

Mike-B posted:
I spent a fews hours last evening with a Linn owner friend listening to my NDX; he has been reading the posts on 4.6 & was interested. We listened to 4.6, then 4.4 & then back to 4.6. He was expecting the differences to be a lot more pronounced as a result of reading the forum posts, but was very positive that 4.6 would be his choice. That is a unanimous vote - Me, Mrs Me & Mr Linn owner for 4.6 on NDX on my system.

I think it'd be interesting to know in which areas you all felt 4.6 was better.