Buying a CDP is outdated?

Mike-B posted:

David Hendon posted:

I think this is actually incorrect. CD sales are not declining very fast if at all and the fact that High Street shops don't stock many titles is more about the decline of that sales outlet in the face of competition from the on-line retailers. You can check what is going on by googling CD sales 2017 for example.

I think the imminent demise of CD, like the demise of FM, is over-stated and not something to worry about currently.

I might disagree a bit on that David,  Album music sales in UK are down,  I don't have details on individual digital track purchases or how it shows against streaming,  but I suspect streaming is the growth area & also the music buying public are in decline, demise,  or just no longer buying.     

UK album sales (vinyl, digital (download) & CD) since 2008 are halved by 2016.    CD (this thread subject) fell 11.7% in 2016.  Surprising to me is digital (download) albums are down 29.6% to their lowest point since 2009.        The only growth area is vinyl with a growth of 52.6%,  but even so its total sales were only 3.2m & in the grand scheme of things is insignificant.

I believe a similar trend is seem in all other significant music sales markets in USA, Europe & far East ,  but also that UK is declining the least.  

I’m sure I heard on Radio 4 news a few days ago that CD sales have just turned back to growth in the UK(?) 

kevin J Carden posted:  

I’m sure I heard on Radio 4 news a few days ago that CD sales have just turned back to growth in the UK(?) 

That might have been about overall music sales comparison from 2016 to 2017 in UK (only)   I read something similar in press & BBC.     What it seems to be saying is streaming has grown all music sales by 10% in that year but included in that growth is a continued decline in both physical & digital (download) albums.      Although it is growth it might turn out to be a momentary check in the years of downward trends or might be a real reversal,   who can tell.

Personally I get a feeling streaming has turned music ownership into a valueless commodity, its no longer a prized ownership item & has become an intangible that is treated in much the same way as is music over the radio.    Compounded by (IMO) that we are in a period of musical doldrums,  no new music, no new movements,  its nothing like the various new "waves" of the past decades.  

Rose-tinted glasses Mike?

Mike-B posted:

Personally I get a feeling streaming has turned music ownership into a valueless commodity, its no longer a prized ownership item & has become an intangible that is treated in much the same way as is music over the radio.    Compounded by (IMO) that we are in a period of musical doldrums,  no new music, no new movements,  its nothing like the various new "waves" of the past decades.  

There's an argument that music ownership in fact should be a valueless commodity and that having licensed access to pretty much everything ever recorded all the time is the end-game here. At some level, that's hard to argue with. But......

My nagging doubt with streaming is that if I decide to switch providers or cancel, what I have carefully curated as a virtual collection is essentially gone. The lack of permanence with respect to the music that I have selected to be "my collection" is unsatisfactory to me at a psychological level with streaming services, so I will continue to buy music both as CDs (immediately ripped and stored) and as downloads.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Rose-tinted glasses Mike?

    nah,  purple tinted   ............   with a touch of mellow haze  

winkyincanada posted:

There's an argument that music ownership in fact should be a valueless commodity and that having licensed access to pretty much everything ever recorded all the time is the end-game here. At some level, that's hard to argue with. But......

My nagging doubt with streaming is that if I decide to switch providers or cancel, what I have carefully curated as a virtual collection is essentially gone. The lack of permanence with respect to the music that I have selected to be "my collection" is unsatisfactory to me at a psychological level with streaming services, so I will continue to buy music both as CDs (immediately ripped and stored) and as downloads.

I wholeheartedly agree. For me it is untenable to be at risk of being unable to access my favourite music as and when I wish, in perpetuity - indeed there’s no point in having a hifi system if I can’t.  So I have no interest in online services that may be transient, or have poor connection, or indeed where I need to keep paying to maintain access - rather it is all about my own locally stored music collection: not vinyl because to me that was too flawed and I moved on, and CD simply as one medium of purchase and transfer to my locally held streaming store.

winkyincanada posted:

Mike-B posted:

Personally I get a feeling streaming has turned music ownership into a valueless commodity, its no longer a prized ownership item & has become an intangible that is treated in much the same way as is music over the radio.    Compounded by (IMO) that we are in a period of musical doldrums,  no new music, no new movements,  its nothing like the various new "waves" of the past decades.  

There's an argument that music ownership in fact should be a valueless commodity and that having licensed access to pretty much everything ever recorded all the time is the end-game here. At some level, that's hard to argue with. But......

My nagging doubt with streaming is that if I decide to switch providers or cancel, what I have carefully curated as a virtual collection is essentially gone. The lack of permanence with respect to the music that I have selected to be "my collection" is unsatisfactory to me at a psychological level with streaming services, so I will continue to buy music both as CDs (immediately ripped and stored) and as downloads.

Multi talented rock stars are not going to be interested in being involved with a valueless disenfranchised commodity.

Where will they go ?  What will they be doing ?   Will popular culture ever be the same as it once was when rock stars ruled the world ?

One of advantages of streaming is that you can explore and listen to a universe of treasured music out there, quite a few of those albums, artists that you did not even know exist before.

I am still listening to LPs, CDs, but mainly out of nostalgia, and these albums really comes down to a handful, despite that I own thousands of those over 30 years of collection.

Frank Yang posted:

One of advantages of streaming is that you can explore and listen to a universe of treasured music out there, quite a few of those albums, artists that you did not even know exist before.

I am still listening to LPs, CDs, but mainly out of nostalgia, and these albums really comes down to a handful, despite that I own thousands of those over 30 years of collection.

It is important to distinguish between streaming music from one’s own store, and an online streaming service.

All my positive comments about streaming relate to the former. For me, online streaming does have a place in assessing new music, but it doesn’t need to be even CD quality - and often isn’t - so can be from any number of free services (I use Spotify basic, uTube, bands own sampler sites etc., and even mp3 Is adequate for that purpose. If I like it, I’ll buy it, if not, then move on. But then, I don’t have a great interest in finding more music , my 1200 or so albums being a large enough collection that too much rarely gets played, so in terms of new music it is more a case of checking out the occasional things that crop up that I might like, or of which something prompts a memory, than a continual search.

I have been reading this thread through this morning. The diversity of opinions presented is great.

My observation FWIW is to hark back to the early days of cd. I was a fully paid up Flat Earther, and was in the privileged position of being in the best hifi shop in Perth.

The arguments for/against vinyl/CD were quite robust. Sound quality, convenience, cost and longevity were fiercely debated.

The blindspot I had then was to discount the belief I have that most music media was bought by people with little interest in music, hifi's or most of the criteria we music nuts/audiophiles consider.

I think most music is "consumed" if you like, as a cultural thing. Go out and hear a band because it's part of what you and your circle of friends do. I was very reminded of this idea when I went to see The Rolling Stones a few years back. $489 AUD for General Admission tickets and my guess was 50% of the crowd were there because it was probably your last chance to see them. The fact that it was a  killer concert was incidental.

I believe many if not most people grab the latest pop release because you see it in the store and want to wack it on in the car. Buy the Beethoven Essentials box set because it's "worthy". Not because it's amazing music.

I sold good hifi, to 1000's of people. I preached enthusiastically from the PRAT pulpit. Always thought that if people got to listen to great music in the home that that was a good thing.

However I knew that a lot of my clients just bought because "everyone has a hifi". I just didn't give enough weight to the implications of this.

So my point is that the future of cd players, streamers, musicians and the hifi industry is not going to be determined by the relatively small subset of people who are mad for music or actually buy product based on it's perceived merits.

If music remains culturally important then we are lucky and the critical mass of the industry will throw up enough good music and gear. Whatever these things may evolve into. 

As to how long cd has, well who knows? 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Frank Yang posted:

One of advantages of streaming is that you can explore and listen to a universe of treasured music out there, quite a few of those albums, artists that you did not even know exist before.

I am still listening to LPs, CDs, but mainly out of nostalgia, and these albums really comes down to a handful, despite that I own thousands of those over 30 years of collection.

It is important to distinguish between streaming music from one’s own store, and an online streaming service.

All my positive comments about streaming relate to the former. For me, online streaming does have a place in assessing new music, but it doesn’t need to be even CD quality - and often isn’t - so can be from any number of free services (I use Spotify basic, uTube, bands own sampler sites etc., and even mp3 Is adequate for that purpose. If I like it, I’ll buy it, if not, then move on. But then, I don’t have a great interest in finding more music , my 1200 or so albums being a large enough collection that too much rarely gets played, so in terms of new music it is more a case of checking out the occasional things that crop up that I might like, or of which something prompts a memory, than a continual search.

May I say the pleasure of listening to the "hires" online streaming is that I can listen to different representations of Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Bach, etc. by different artists any time I want, with little or no compromise to the sound quality.

Yes. Buying CDs is not. Still the best back-up, and you get informative liner notes.

Mike-B posted:

Richard Dane posted:

Mike, I've made a small edit and hopefully the chart in your post should now show up.

.....   hmm  strange,  it was OK at my end,  I had changed the size & would not have left it had it not shown up for me    .........   thanks anyhow 

Richard's edit looks good, yet the image isn't showing up, so it may be that the server the image is hosted on disallows embeds. Here's a link, which works for me:

https://cdn.mbw.44bytes.net/fi.../01/UKalbumsales.jpg

Anyway, interesting graphic.

Frank Yang posted:

One of advantages of streaming is that you can explore and listen to a universe of treasured music out there, quite a few of those albums, artists that you did not even know exist before.

I don't have a streaming device in my hi-fi system. Nonetheless I can freely explore the universe of treasured music out there streamed wirelessly via my notebook PC, no subscriptions required. From there I determine whether or not I want to buy a CD or LP that I've sampled.

Like I said in my reply post Corry  -  “strange”       I see the graphic on my laptop,  but looking now on my iPad I don’t see.  I havn’t done anything different from my normal ways so  I guess it’s something in the www image address link.   

Frank Yang posted:

May I say the pleasure of listening to the "hires" online streaming is that I can listen to different representations of Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Bach, etc. by different artists any time I want, with little or no compromise to the sound quality.

That is a very good point, and one that I am ashamed had never ocurred to me, perhaps because whilst I have always liked classical music it tends to be the smaller proportion of my listening and I have  usually simply bought on the basis of the piece being something I like, played as it is on the album I’ve heeard/bought, never even wondering what other versions sound like, and only exploring others when the one I’ve bought has in some way left me feeling it can be improved.

Mike-B posted:

Like I said in my reply post Corry  -  “strange”       I see the graphic on my laptop,  but looking now on my iPad I don’t see.  I havn’t done anything different from my normal ways so  I guess it’s something in the www image address link.   

I've just refreshed this page, and now I see the graphic, as embedded in your original post. I'm using Firefox. However, when I view this page in Chrome, the graphic is still missing, with the console saying that it's returning a 403 "Forbidden" code. Strange indeed!

Great chart! Well in the way it shows the trend. The trend ain't so great though.... if you are into "physical" media, the recent resurgence of vinyl not withstanding.

A quick google search tells me CD players were first released in early 1983, (which even though I was there at the time I couldn't recall... drugs?), and by 1988/89 CD sales overtook vinyl, and by 1994 vinyl sales were pretty much a small niche. So ten years to dominate. Also it took till the early 90's for CD to overtake cassettes. There's a lesson. I had the use of a CD player of course being a dealer, but didn't plonk down my money for one until around 1985. I bought a Meridian. My biggest hifi regret.

Digital downloads don't seem to be tracing the same trajectory, as their rise was stymied by streaming.  So maybe we should be worried by the future outlook for buying music downloads too. CD and digital downloads may both be outdated.

In my work life, I subscribe to AutoCAD, Revit & Photoshop etc as I need the latest version of the software.  I do have older version of all the software that I legally own, (and cost me thousands), but still subscribe. I see a time where more and more software is subscription only. As the file formats keep being tweeked with each release, you are caught up with keeping your subscription up so you stay current with your industry peers. Having a legacy file format AutoCAD or Revit program on your computer doesn't work so well the more years you are behind the current release. So you subscribe and you have to hand over the 2-3k a year. Plus the programs are "live" so when you go online the bastards know if you have paid your subscription.

Maybe that's where music will go too. You won't be able buy it, only stream it. Software used to decode the music streams will be made so you have to subscribe. They can keep changing the codecs so you're caught up in the "keeping current" race.  Forced to pay your money each month to the service or nothing emerges from your lovely black boxes. Now that would be a worry.

the original thread was about a gift to a girlfriend who is accustomed to listen to cds.  So i think that it is risky to buy her a streamer, without telling her before.  Streaming is plug and play when all is working fine.  But to install, to download and send to a nas, to change artwork, ....it is not so easy if the person is not computer friendly.  As for only tidal,  the girlfriend will have to pay each month around 20GBP.

And the last consideration:  perhaps the girlfriend prefer the physical format too.

So i will first be sure if the girlfriend will like all the aspects of the streaming game before buying a streamer to her.   Or just buy a cd player with a memory stick output to play some highrez.....

Gary Henderson posted:

As I still haven' heard a streamer at any price that can hold a candle to a good cd player I'd stick with cds

Hi,

I maybe agree with you, but will you please do a short list of CD players you rate 'good'?

Thanks,

Max

I think we can safely say there are different opinions about whether or not the CDP is outdated.

The OP's question has been answered. Let's all enjoy our weekend listening to CD's, Vinyl or streaming our favourite songs and albums.

I wish the non streamers here  a happy record store day tomorrow.

Cheers!

Tef - Amen to that!