Statement interconnects

J Novak posted:

I am not sure that specific Cisco is the only killer switch to be honest, I am therefore going with an equivalent Hewlett Packard one, built around the same industrial principles.

Regarding the M12, my curiosity is driving the effort, so hopefully we will all come out of this a bit better informed.

Best, JN

I use HP as well (external linear Power supply), tried that old Cisco but it was very clear that quite basic HP was better by clear marigin. I know 3 persons who have been trying both & uses HP nowadays.

It has been mentioned before that allegedly possibly Vertere is the source of SL cable ....  I understand that they do all sorts of ranges ..... based on same technology .... it may pay to speak to them....

No, it is not the source of the SL cable.

They do NOT sound the same to me.

analogmusic posted:

getting back to topic after many experiments - the interconnects between source and preamp - well there is a variety of those on the market, including the excellent ones from Vertere which to me are top value for money.

But the cable between preamp and power, whether the standard Din/XLR, Superlumina or Snaic, well the ones supplied or made by Naim are the ones best suitable for the job to my ears for the Naim sound that I am looking for.

The statement uses fully balanced XLR cables between preamp and power amp, so that cable was specifically made for the statement amp.

The review of ChordMusic on the Chord Website (and Jason Kennedy's the ear) says the same thing, the most effectiveChord Music cable, is the one between source and preamp

 

 

I think you’ll have to agree that you have deliberately mis-interpreted the review to try to suit your (same as ever) assertion.

And yet again, you roll out the “specifically made for it” statement as if that renders it the best and only suitable cable, which is simply utter nonsense. It also happens to be completely hypocritical of you to make such claims given that you don’t believe the same of Naim’s streamers or speakers. Indeed, in the same post you continued to advocate Vertere cables, didn’t you. Anyway, unless I missed it, you still haven’t explained to us how Chord DACs, Vertere cables and Dynaudio speakers out-Naim The Naim sound, but then I guess that’s not really the sound you’re after.

Vertere  cables are not terminated with the special Naim designed  vibration damping plugs....so they will be different..... Naim does not manufacture cable from constituents but it will source it ... to make product that suits it needs.. .some body needs to chop some up he he...it seems to me a very strange coincidence that Vertere is probably the only specialist cable company making multi differing strand cables that are shielded....a cable that promotes fast transients and leading edges....this is only what I have gleaned .. so I could be 100% wrong.

kevin J Carden posted:

Hi Zoot, the standard XLR's between 552 and 500 are not Super Lumina cables. Super Lumina is an optional upgrade and there are other options available. As you suggest, Chord do XLR's for Naim and Vertere do as well. I personally use Vertere which was an improvement on the Chord Indigo XLR's I had before.

 

PB, I’d be interested which Vertere’s you chose. I’m looking to improve on the standard issue DIN-XLRs, but a bit reluctant to go with SL a) because of price and b) because I’m unlikely to go SL full loom given my speakers seem to like Mogami speaker cable. I’ve tried the WitchHat alternative DIN/XLR’s but felt they were merely different to, not better than standard cables. 

Hi Kevin,

I have a hand made Vertere XLR cable, you don't want to know the price as its eye watering. I kind of guess that if you don't want to stretch to SL then Vertere isn't for you.

I had a pair of Chord Indigo XLR's before I got the Vertere and it was an improvement over the stock cable and a tad more affordable,

Dave J posted:

analogmusic posted:

getting back to topic after many experiments - the interconnects between source and preamp - well there is a variety of those on the market, including the excellent ones from Vertere which to me are top value for money.

But the cable between preamp and power, whether the standard Din/XLR, Superlumina or Snaic, well the ones supplied or made by Naim are the ones best suitable for the job to my ears for the Naim sound that I am looking for.

The statement uses fully balanced XLR cables between preamp and power amp, so that cable was specifically made for the statement amp.

The review of ChordMusic on the Chord Website (and Jason Kennedy's the ear) says the same thing, the most effectiveChord Music cable, is the one between source and preamp

 

 

I think you’ll have to agree that you have deliberately mis-interpreted the review to try to suit your (same as ever) assertion.

And yet again, you roll out the “specifically made for it” statement as if that renders it the best and only suitable cable, which is simply utter nonsense. It also happens to be completely hypocritical of you to make such claims given that you don’t believe the same of Naim’s streamers or speakers. Indeed, in the same post you continued to advocate Vertere cables, didn’t you. Anyway, unless I missed it, you still haven’t explained to us how Chord DACs, Vertere cables and Dynaudio speakers out-Naim The Naim sound, but then I guess that’s not really the sound you’re after.

yes i agree with you, it is perhaps time for analogmusic to stop this continuous non sense of intended naim sound.  It becomes really tiring .   Naim choosed the superlumina cables for the  statement: yes.   Is there better cables or other choices: yes.     One example: the powerline. The statements desserve better power cables than powerlines to fully express themselves.  

The naim sound, if there is really something like that, is given by the source and the pre, for the most part.  Analogmusic is using the chord dave:  the naim sound is amputated.

Richieroo posted:

Vertere  cables are not terminated with the special Naim designed  vibration damping plugs....so they will be different..... Naim does not manufacture cable from constituents but it will source it ... to make product that suits it needs.. .some body needs to chop some up he he...it seems to me a very strange coincidence that Vertere is probably the only specialist cable company making multi differing strand cables that are shielded....a cable that promotes fast transients and leading edges....this is only what I have gleaned .. so I could be 100% wrong.

it isn't just the plugs Richeroo.

Vertere use Teflon as insulation, Naim use another material, apparently FEP and Polyolefin (this is from the Superlumina review on Naim website).

The number of cores differs on Vertere depending on the price range of the cable, Superlumina was designed as a non compromise cable - which equates to the Vertere Hand Built range.

The diameter and twist of the cable is different also - Naim have optimised for Rhythm and Timing - Vertere optimised for Dynamics and Speed, (that is why they sound different to me)

As I said, in interconnects, well it is a matter of taste, but the "system" cables (between pre/power) for me, Naim did design the statement amplifier so the SL is tuned to what they wanted, of course if anyone likes ChordMusic more, well who can account for taste?  

Anyway - since this is not a "popular" view and I have been asked to keep "quiet", I will let Richard Dane and Naim defend themselves maybe ?

I am a big fan of the vertere DFI range RCA to RCA cables - it's still reasonable money and a big taste of Superlumina at a fraction of the price.

Anyway for Dave J - this is what Jason Kennedy wrote on his review of Chord Sarum T

"If you wanted to start with just one cable from the Sarum T range I would make it the Analogue interconnect, doing a bit of swapping around I found that this gave the most benefit on its own. But there’s no getting away from the advantages accrued from having this cable throughout the system"

Hi J Novak.

As a keen Naim enthusiast for over 30 years, I would say say strictly to stick with Naim interconnects between Naim amps and speakers. I have experimented many times over the years with many exotic cables and always find you loose much more than you gain, you mainly loose the naim synergy and sound. I would also strongly suggest anyone who tries other cables to switch back after a month and get a big surprise on what you have lost.

One experiment I have done lately is to play a piece of music to friends and stop, wait 2 mins, play it again, same volume and everyone said it sounded better the 2nd time. Try it, I think this is what people do when they switch cables. I always try things for a week and change back. Most of the time I realise it was better where I was originally.

Honestly I think I must be one of the very few people who actually enjoy my Naim system. Standard cabling throughout. You guys have really put me off even thinking about upgrading any cables.

Hey don't take it to heart these guys are just passionate about .... well their hobby we all have our views and it's great to share....but they are only views not gospel.....

Polarbear posted:

kevin J Carden posted:

Hi Zoot, the standard XLR's between 552 and 500 are not Super Lumina cables. Super Lumina is an optional upgrade and there are other options available. As you suggest, Chord do XLR's for Naim and Vertere do as well. I personally use Vertere which was an improvement on the Chord Indigo XLR's I had before.

 

PB, I’d be interested which Vertere’s you chose. I’m looking to improve on the standard issue DIN-XLRs, but a bit reluctant to go with SL a) because of price and b) because I’m unlikely to go SL full loom given my speakers seem to like Mogami speaker cable. I’ve tried the WitchHat alternative DIN/XLR’s but felt they were merely different to, not better than standard cables. 

Hi Kevin,

 

I have a hand made Vertere XLR cable, you don't want to know the price as its eye watering. I kind of guess that if you don't want to stretch to SL then Vertere isn't for you.

 

I had a pair of Chord Indigo XLR's before I got the Vertere and it was an improvement over the stock cable and a tad more affordable,

Thanks for this PB. I’ll cross Vertere off the list then! 

Maybe I should have a go at getting a set made up with some Mogami as a low cost experiment. Someone else on the forum (Huge?) did that and was pleased with the outcome. Since I have Mogami Speaker cable it might make some sense. Only trouble is that I don’t have the soldering skills nor apparatus to do this myself, so would need to find someone who could do it for me. That’s an option. 

kevin J Carden posted:

Maybe I should have a go at getting a set made up with some Mogami as a low cost experiment. Someone else on the forum (Huge?) did that and was pleased with the outcome. Since I have Mogami Speaker cable it might make some sense. Only trouble is that I don’t have the soldering skills nor apparatus to do this myself, so would need to find someone who could do it for me. That’s an option. 

Hi Kevin,

Huge uses Mogami W2497 for DIN to XLR interconnect, which Huge prefers over the Mogami W2549 which Huge used before. I'm still using the 2549, which in my system's considerably better than the standard Naim cabling - haven't gotten round to trying the 2497 yet, it's on the list...As suggested by a previous poster, I did try swapping back to the Naim cable after a long period using the Mogamis, and it sounded even worse than I remembered.

It really is worthwhile learning to solder. A very easy and cheap skill to acquire, there are lots of tutorials on uTube.

analogmusic posted:

Richieroo posted:

Vertere  cables are not terminated with the special Naim designed  vibration damping plugs....so they will be different..... Naim does not manufacture cable from constituents but it will source it ... to make product that suits it needs.. .some body needs to chop some up he he...it seems to me a very strange coincidence that Vertere is probably the only specialist cable company making multi differing strand cables that are shielded....a cable that promotes fast transients and leading edges....this is only what I have gleaned .. so I could be 100% wrong.

it isn't just the plugs Richeroo.

Vertere use Teflon as insulation, Naim use another material, apparently FEP and Polyolefin (this is from the Superlumina review on Naim website).

The number of cores differs on Vertere depending on the price range of the cable, Superlumina was designed as a non compromise cable - which equates to the Vertere Hand Built range.

The diameter and twist of the cable is different also - Naim have optimised for Rhythm and Timing - Vertere optimised for Dynamics and Speed, (that is why they sound different to me)

As I said, in interconnects, well it is a matter of taste, but the "system" cables (between pre/power) for me, Naim did design the statement amplifier so the SL is tuned to what they wanted, of course if anyone likes ChordMusic more, well who can account for taste?  

Anyway - since this is not a "popular" view and I have been asked to keep "quiet", I will let Richard Dane and Naim defend themselves maybe ?

I am a big fan of the vertere DFI range RCA to RCA cables - it's still reasonable money and a big taste of Superlumina at a fraction of the price.

I could be mistaken but I understood that FEP is sold by Du Pont as Teflon, it’s not some new exotic material. The number of cores may well differ from cable to cable from the same manufacturer, that’s right, as may diameter and twist.  There is nothing in what you say here that suggests SL is manufactured by someone other than Vertere. Indeed Richard says, quite rightly, that Naim subcontract cable manufacture - as with many other components - to a company that is more suited to the task, loads of manufacturers do that. Naim are quite busy enough developing and manufacturing excellence into everything else. I don’t see that it would be anything but a sensible decision to use a company like Vertere, no harm at all despite what you seem to be implying, which is rather odd.

I’d also disagree that SL is a no compromise cable, it’s a least-compromise-for-the-budget cable. The distinct difference with ChordMusic being that it was initially an R&D project to produce the best cable they possibly could without considering cost constraints.

Likewise, Naim nor Richard need to “defend” themselves, this is not an attack on Naim at all, merely a discussion on some of the cabling options with a Statement system that might offer an additional level of listening enjoyment. But, as you say, who can account for taste? 

well the proof of this pudding for me was the listening

Having heard a Pulse B Vertere DIN/XLR and then the Superlumina, it left me no doubt at all, that Naim designed the Superlumina. I much prefer the Superlumina for DIN/XLR duties (preamp to power amp)

Just because cables look similar doesn't mean they sound similar at all.

As for manufacturing, well previously H&F used to make the transformers for Naim, now Nuvotem, but so what, since when did that ever become an issue?

The anodising for Naim black boxes is done by the same supplier as the one for DCS, but so what?

Same for BMW and Mercedes, ZF make the gearboxes for both companies (and Jaguar) but does it mean these cars are the same?

It's all in the detail rather than which factory made the cable.

AFAIK vertere do not own any factory, and maybe there are only one or 2 factories in the world capable of making such cables. But so what they make what the company has designed, and as I said above, the listening is all it took to convince me Superlumina was designed by Naim.

I am hoping Naim come out themselves with the story of superlumina, but they do say on the Naim website it took thousands of hours of listening to come up with Superlumina. 

also the Vertere speaker cables look very different to Naim Superlumina speaker cable.

The Pulse X is not even suitable for a Nap 500 as the negative side of the speaker cable is a single core, as one should ask them to make a special version of Pulse X for a NAP 500 amplifier (which costs more money), whereas Superlumina speaker cable is designed for all Naim amplifiers.

The plugs make look similar for Pulse X reference speaker cable, but these are gold plated, and Superlumina is Silver plated.

Ha ha keeping going.... great Sorry Adam

analogmusic posted:

Anyway for Dave J - this is what Jason Kennedy wrote on his review of Chord Sarum T

"If you wanted to start with just one cable from the Sarum T range I would make it the Analogue interconnect, doing a bit of swapping around I found that this gave the most benefit on its own. But there’s no getting away from the advantages accrued from having this cable throughout the system"

Thought I ought to reply as there is nothing in this quote that says Jason Kennedy prefers SL Din-XLR cables as you had previously implied. Also, I understood we were talking about ChordMusic? 

I don’t see anything wrong in Naim sourcing cable through Vertere - if that is what they do. I was under the impression that it was, but don’t really care whether it is or not. Best to simply judge it on its merits and suitability for your own system

tonym posted:

kevin J Carden posted:

Maybe I should have a go at getting a set made up with some Mogami as a low cost experiment. Someone else on the forum (Huge?) did that and was pleased with the outcome. Since I have Mogami Speaker cable it might make some sense. Only trouble is that I don’t have the soldering skills nor apparatus to do this myself, so would need to find someone who could do it for me. That’s an option. 

Hi Kevin,

Huge uses Mogami W2497 for DIN to XLR interconnect, which Huge prefers over the Mogami W2549 which Huge used before. I'm still using the 2549, which in my system's considerably better than the standard Naim cabling - haven't gotten round to trying the 2497 yet, it's on the list...As suggested by a previous poster, I did try swapping back to the Naim cable after a long period using the Mogamis, and it sounded even worse than I remembered.

It really is worthwhile learning to solder. A very easy and cheap skill to acquire, there are lots of tutorials on uTube.

Thanks Tony. I’d forgotten that you also had Mogami sets. I guess you’d need 3 pairs of DIN/XLR’s, so £10k’s worth of SL ?!!!

I have actually done a bit of soldering in the dim and distant, but usually ‘heavier guage’ stuff like banana plugs on speaker cable. I’m guessing that wiring these plugs might be a bit finicky, but I guess it’s often just a matter of having the right equipment. Think I’ll buy that equipment and give it a go. Am I right in recalling that either Huge or yourself gave quite precise details of how to make the connections? Do you recall the name of the thread?

Cheers, Kevin

FEP is not the same thing as PTFE (aka Teflon®), but its dielectric properties are very similar to PTFE, polypropylene, low density polyethylene and paraffin wax (there's very little practical difference to the electrical characteristics of all these).

(... And it's definitely not the same if you are referring to 'First Episode Psychosis'!)

Hello all again!

For the peanut gallery :-) the Statement sounds mighty fine with cables other than SuperLumina, and out of the box!

It has arrived from Salisbury without the accesories (SL XLR, PowerLines and remote) so I had no choice but undergo a sacriligeous experience...

In any case, it is an amazing amplifier, already now.

Best, JN

Exciting times!

Really surprised that such a top of the range product from Naim was delivered without the SL XLR and PowerLines!

Enjoy,

Richard

today i received my bugatti shiron without the wheels....a little mistake from ups.