Mac-Mini as a Streamer..❗❗ Advice,and other things to think about.

sorry Peder...that's a joke. I run a mid2012 mac mini with audirvana and tried other fancy SW (hqplayer etc). So my setup is macmin --usb--dac. I can tell you, this mac mini thing  can't touch an auralic or aurender or a linn kds! Sorry, thats a nice dream ;-) Even an sonore rendu with ifi power beats the s..t out of a pimped mac! So you want a great sound for a good VFM? Sonore!

Ralf

No,No,No T38.45 (Ralf).... ????, it's not a joke or a wet dream,you must read what I write again.

◾ My other friend who listen to this, is a Linn-retailer,and also Naim, for a long long time,and he, as I say .... Confirmed this. But this Klimax DS is three years old, and not with the Catalyst-upgrade. But it doesn't matter,the cost is huge between this to Streamers....and I can have the Mac mini in a computer-based headphone-system.

◾ My Audio-guy friend is,as I say....really,really good at this things.He just had a fanatic intresset and knowledge,education,and doing this for himself......not the Commercial market. The Hifi-Magazine's here in Sweden has made alot of reportage during the years of/about him. I first meet him around year 2000.

He's now building new power-amps for his system,the old one's he has,and built,plays better than Linn's Top-power amps.

???? It's not an original Mac-mini anymore as I say earlier,.....he has taken away alot of things from it,and maybe put in some....I don't know. And,....the Linear power supply is big like the 555PS to this little Mac-mini.

As I think you understand,I look forward to meet him and listen to this.

BUT,more advice how I can get better out of a Mac mini, before my friends do this rebuilt.

◾ T38.45 (Ralf),...what USB-cable do you use between Mac mini and dac❓ .....have you try'd many?

/Peder ???? 

I ran a modified Mac Mini for a quite a few years - SSD, Optimised OS, Audivarna, Regen, fancy USB cable etc - it was replaced by a Melco which just sounded better.

James

yes...tried Tellurium Q Ultra Silver and Black and some standard USB cables as well. Finally bought Q Ultra Silver now for my DAC. But ok, just listen for yourself if a mini can touch a Klimax:-)

What is doing the rendering? And you don’t mention DAC, the term ‘streamer’ in this context usually including an in-built DAC, yet surely you can’t mean the Mac’s own DAC???

Could you please detail your friend’s system in full, as of course what you listen through can make a huge difference to what a source can sound like, and whether differences are going to be very evident., and so the information is always needed for context. (The room and how the system is set up in it also can have a significant effect on clarity of music and the hearing differences between components, however that is far less easy to either assess or describe in a meaningful way.)

Turning to implementations of Mac Mini, I use It myself, in my case running Audirvana renderer, and it sounds great. I haven’t compared with Linn, but I have compared with ND5XS as renderer (through Chord Hugo DAC, Musical Fidelity P270 power amp and IMF RSPM speakers), when MM/A was better sounding than ND5XS, and also compared with Melco N1A, (through Chord Dave DAC, Bryston 4Bsst2 power amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers), when II couldn’t hear a difference between the sources, however it was only a very brief comparison. (Others have disagreed re comparison with Melco, however none of which I am aware compared through Dave, which dies have particularly good RF rejection, more so than any othe Chord DAC at least, and I suspecrpt that may be the cause of differences. With lesser DACs I believe the effectiveness of the RF isolation used is likely to be the most important factor.)

My Mac Mini is a ‘late 2012’ model, which I believe was the last version that is fully customisable by the user. My oneis the core i5 2.5GHz one, to which I fitted 16GB RAM and twin1TB SSDs, running ElCapitan 10.11.6. I use it headless (no monitor or keyboard), controlling remotely from other devices using VNC viewer, and the Audirvana remote control app. I have stuck with v2.6.8 of Audirvana because I have no interest in MQA which was implemented at a cost with v3. Audirvana is set up fully optimised (Direct Mode - Integer Mode 1, dedicated usb port, sysoptimised etc), which I believe are critical to the sound quality.

When I used with Hugo, I found it essential to block the RF from the MM (inevitable with any computer, even with linear power supplies), which otherwise had a very audible adverse effect on sound quality and I found the inexpensive Gustard U12 very effective, convering the usb output from MM to SPDIF or optical. I Have not found the Gustard necessary with Dave, thougn I do use an Audioquest USb regen - not because I hear a difference myself, but Dave’s designer recommended it, and only a trivial cost.

One benefit of such an approach is that combines store and renderer in the same unit, removing any need to stream files across a network: whilst many peoole have no trouble with networks, the same is not true for all - And there is no need to even think about whether the quality of network cables and switches etc affect sound quality.

My one and only niggle with it is that Audirvana’s library software is frustrating if you have less than perfect metadata, and I really miss the ability to browse by file structure - but I put up with that for the sound quality

????Hi, T38.45 Ralf and Innocent Bystander ????.... just to be clear.I have also very hard to believe this. BUT,.... I have known this Linn/Naim-retailer around 35 years,and listen to music with him, so we know our music preferencis......he know what he's doing. He say's it was the best,or at least in Top 3 of all system he have listen to....all times❗ 

◾And my friend the Audio-guy, has a friend (I also know him,he was a member in a hifi/music-org I started 1994) who also definitely knows what he's doing. In the Year 1996 this other guy had built a dac that outperformed Linn's Numerik dac in big,big ways. We where 18 high end "Linn-freaks" listen at that time......and where really chocked. This two guy's is in a level of there own.

???? Innocent Bystander,....Thank's for your write up's,very useful information ????.

/Peder ???? 

The 2012 Mac Mini was probably the last beefy Mini processor wise - I was waiting for an update on this model and when it eventually came I rushed to buy a 2012 model as the newer ones were not as good on paper and more expensive.

It had a decent complement of ports including mini toslink (shared with analogue 3.5mm) and HDMI, I'm actually using mine now since trashing my 2015 MBP.

Would it surpass a dedicated system?  I'd be surprised, but depends in what capacity - simply as a renderer it may offer more than a lesser powered device, just depends what it's outputting to I guess.

Have used Audirvana via several Macs - nice, but I've found it unreliable playing to a Nova via UPnP, losing connection often, on what in my view is a decent network setup.  Nova or Mac or Audirvana I don't know which is at fault.

Innocent Bystander posted:

What is doing the rendering? And you don’t mention DAC, the term ‘streamer’ in this context usually including an in-built DAC, yet surely you can’t mean the Mac’s own DAC???

Could you please detail your friend’s system in full, as of course what you listen through can make a huge difference to what a source can sound like, and whether differences are going to be very evident., and so the information is always needed for context. (The room and how the system is set up in it also can have a significant effect on clarity of music and the hearing differences between components, however that is far less easy to either assess or describe in a meaningful way.)

 

???? IB,....I must come back with answer to this questions.I write here what I know just now.

◾He has a really big music-room upstairs in his house....just for his system.

◾Source: LP12,and this Special Mac Mini/with big LPS,Linn Klimax DS.

◾Speaker-system: Audio Artistry Beethoven,there are just two of this speaker-systems here in Sweden.This system is not so old,but I know that it cost 30 000 euro in 1998.

◾Power-amps: He built this himself.The chassi's is like Linn's.....made from one thick piece of alu. He has a friend who has machine's for this work.

◾Ehternet-cables: He have special tools,so he made this also himself.Trying different contacts ,cables.....that he built....with parts that he buy from all over the world.He shall send one too me, so I can compare it against my Audioquest Vodka-eht.....it shall be interesting.

◾Power-supply's: He built these himself,think here the biggest in Naim-class.He has built a special LPS for his Linn Klimax DS, just to mention one thing.....AND,....YES, it sounds much better than the original SMPS in the Klimax DS.

I told you,he is a fanatic hifi-freak,audio-engineer ????,working every weekend on his system. Yes,...he has a wife and two children and one dog ????????. This is all I know right now about his system,when we call each other, he ALWAYS has some new experience to tell me.So we can talk 2-3 hour,but the time is to short to ask him......What pre do you use now ????????????????.

But,I try too come back with more answers.

/Peder ???? 

Alley Cat posted:

The 2012 Mac Mini was probably the last beefy Mini processor wise - I was waiting for an update on this model and when it eventually came I rushed to buy a 2012 model as the newer ones were not as good on paper and more expensive.

It had a decent complement of ports including mini toslink (shared with analogue 3.5mm) and HDMI, I'm actually using mine now since trashing my 2015 MBP.

Would it surpass a dedicated system?  I'd be surprised, but depends in what capacity - simply as a renderer it may offer more than a lesser powered device, just depends what it's outputting to I guess.

Have used Audirvana via several Macs - nice, but I've found it unreliable playing to a Nova via UPnP, losing connection often, on what in my view is a decent network setup.  Nova or Mac or Audirvana I don't know which is at fault.

 

 

Using Audirvana via its UPnP output defeats the benefit of it as a renderer, and you might as well use any other UPnP server (unless you are doing it formits MQA first unfold capability, but that is a completely different subject), and there are plenty to chose from, not affecting sound quality.

(N.B.the MM’s ports other than USB are irrelevant, as for best sound quality you don’t want to be using the MM’s soundcard.)

Innocent Bystander posted:

Alley Cat posted:

The 2012 Mac Mini was probably the last beefy Mini processor wise - I was waiting for an update on this model and when it eventually came I rushed to buy a 2012 model as the newer ones were not as good on paper and more expensive.

It had a decent complement of ports including mini toslink (shared with analogue 3.5mm) and HDMI, I'm actually using mine now since trashing my 2015 MBP.

Would it surpass a dedicated system?  I'd be surprised, but depends in what capacity - simply as a renderer it may offer more than a lesser powered device, just depends what it's outputting to I guess.

Have used Audirvana via several Macs - nice, but I've found it unreliable playing to a Nova via UPnP, losing connection often, on what in my view is a decent network setup.  Nova or Mac or Audirvana I don't know which is at fault.

 

 

Using Audirvana via its UPnP output defeats the benefit of it as a renderer, and you might as well use any other UPnP server (unless you are doing it formits MQA first unfold capability, but that is a completely different subject), and there are plenty to chose from, not affecting sound quality.

I had Audirvana long before a Naim streamer, but my primary reason for trying UPnP with it later was an attempt to achieve lossless playback streaming via Qobuz for non-purchased material but it just didn't work - Atom/Nova or Audirvana at issue?

Alley Cat posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Alley Cat posted:

The 2012 Mac Mini was probably the last beefy Mini processor wise - I was waiting for an update on this model and when it eventually came I rushed to buy a 2012 model as the newer ones were not as good on paper and more expensive.

It had a decent complement of ports including mini toslink (shared with analogue 3.5mm) and HDMI, I'm actually using mine now since trashing my 2015 MBP.

Would it surpass a dedicated system?  I'd be surprised, but depends in what capacity - simply as a renderer it may offer more than a lesser powered device, just depends what it's outputting to I guess.

Have used Audirvana via several Macs - nice, but I've found it unreliable playing to a Nova via UPnP, losing connection often, on what in my view is a decent network setup.  Nova or Mac or Audirvana I don't know which is at fault.

 

 

Using Audirvana via its UPnP output defeats the benefit of it as a renderer, and you might as well use any other UPnP server (unless you are doing it formits MQA first unfold capability, but that is a completely different subject), and there are plenty to chose from, not affecting sound quality.

I had Audirvana long before a Naim streamer, but my primary reason for trying UPnP with it later was an attempt to achieve lossless playback streaming via Qobuz for non-purchased material but it just didn't work - Atom/Nova or Audirvana at issue?

Did you try Usb out from MM/Audirvana? To use with Nova you’d probably need a converter as I dont think Nova has usb input. Gustard U12 would probably do a treat (and isolate any RF in case the NOva’s DAC is susceptible), but doubtless other ‘bridges’ would work too.

(N.B.the MM’s ports other than USB are irrelevant, as for best sound quality you don’t want to be using the MM’s soundcard.)

 

Perhaps so, and it was a general comment on ports not necessarily for audio, I might as well have mentioned Firewire 800 (and I have some decent FW audio devices for that matter) too.

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

I had Audirvana long before a Naim streamer, but my primary reason for trying UPnP with it later was an attempt to achieve lossless playback streaming via Qobuz for non-purchased material but it just didn't work - Atom/Nova or Audirvana at issue?

Did you try Usb out from MM/Audirvana? To use with Nova you’d probably need a converter as I dont think Nova has usb input. Gustard U12 would probably do a treat (and isolate any RF in case the NOva’s DAC is susceptible), but doubtless other ‘bridges’ would work too.

No, I haven't done so, but could try, in fact I have a slightly older Mini I've wondered about dedicating to server and/or renderer duties, just don't have as much time as I'd like to tinker.  We have a few RPi's too I'd like to play with audio wise, but again all takes time.

???? IB,....this is the Final thoughts from Stereophiles test in 1997, about Audio Artistry Beethoven-speakersystem, that I write about earlier. The speaker-system that my friend has.

-----------------------------------------------------

◾ Final thoughts
The Audio Artistry Beethoven captivated me as much by its grace as by its grandeur, opening up new levels of musical appreciation. After using the system for more than nine months, I'm still continually amazed at just how much information the brain can sort and the emotions assimilate at one time when listening to it.
Certainly, several among the elite of world-class speakers share a number of the Beethoven's superb qualities, such as low-distortion drivers, outstanding resolution, near-holographic imagery, and a beautiful tonal balance. Most of these designs are also immensely satisfying. However, when you add those attributes to this speaker's lack of room interaction, stunning low-frequency performance, and superior real-world dynamic contrast, I know of no other commercial offering that possesses as many virtues and blends them so successfully, regardless of price.
Whether valued from the objective perspective of its parts count, or by the subjective pleasure I've experienced with it, the Audio Artistry Beethoven system is, at $24,750, a bargain! That's a lot of money any way you slice it. The Beethoven, though, remains the single most impressive audio component I've yet encountered—an instant classic, sure to make a real contribution toward future advances in the art of speaker design. Enjoy!

My comments: This is an amazing speaker-system.

/Peder ???? 

As was mentioned earlier unless you replicate your friends entire system and his listening room you might find it hard to achieve a similar result.  I have no doubt that there are people like your friend who can take a product and transform it taking it to new levels, I'm sure a striped down mac mini with a big LPS optimised for audio replay connected to the right dac could out perform any high end streamer but I would say that the dac used would play as big a part if not bigger than the pimped mac mini.

If however you are saying that he has achieved these results with the mac mini's onboard dac then that would be a miracle indeed unless of course the Linn streamer isn't up to the task. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Turning to implementations of Mac Mini, I use It myself, in my case running Audirvana renderer, and it sounds great. I haven’t compared with Linn, but I have compared with ND5XS as renderer (through Chord Hugo DAC, Musical Fidelity P270 power amp and IMF RSPM speakers), when MM/A was better sounding than ND5XS, and also compared with Melco N1A, (through Chord Dave DAC, Bryston 4Bsst2 power amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers), when II couldn’t hear a difference between the sources, however it was only a very brief comparison. (Others have disagreed re comparison with Melco, however none of which I am aware compared through Dave, which dies have particularly good RF rejection, more so than any othe Chord DAC at least, and I suspecrpt that may be the cause of differences. With lesser DACs I believe the effectiveness of the RF isolation used is likely to be the most important factor.)

Yes - I have no doubt that a lot of this is down to the coupling of noise from the host computer into the DAC. I had an Intona USB isolator for a while and it made a clear audible difference between my Mini and DAC, whereas there was no discernible difference when the Melco was used in place of the Mini which to me demonstrated the Melco has a 'cleaner' USB port, particularly with noise couple via the +5v line. The Mac can make a great source and is a very versatile machine, mine was used as a Firewire source, USB source, UPnP server and now is on ripping duties. SQ aside, I much prefer the ease of operation of the Melco which means I spend less time fiddling and more time listening.

James