Super-lumina Centering

Bob_B posted:

If the Suprlumina has one flaw it is its sensitivity to being set up optimally. Big gains once this is achieved.

If this is true then it's one or more of poor design, poor engineering or poor production quality control on Naim's part.

best

David

Got to be placebo effect... surely ??

The placebo effect can be a wonderful thing. Peter Belt would indeed be proud.

Very poor design if it as to be wiggled and pulled to get the best out of it! If the post is not a wind up of course.

So, i've been reading all the available forum topics regarding  folks impressions of the Super Lumina the past couple days and surprised to see this one pop up today as I was going to ask about  this very subject.

I only have the Naim CDS3 as far as Naim gear goes in my system (plus  a Powerline connected to it) , but, I recently tried a second hand HiLine interconnect (DIN to RCA) where I switched out a Kubala Sosna Expression and I was very impressed.  So impressed, it got me thinking about the Super Lumina (DIN to RCA).  Perhaps, as been discussed elsewhere, my impression has something to do with using the DIN connector as opposed to RCAs.

  I found the Hiline gave me better imaging, better sound staging and an over all smoothness and depth in presentation i quite enjoy.  Well worth the $$ since the switchover cost is less then the value of my Kubala on the used market.

So, is the debate still strong on the upgrade benefits moving from HiLine to Lumina  ? Do users of more recently manufactured runs of the Super Lumina  still find it finicky to connect and place behind your rack without impact as per this OP ? 

I have my HiLine feeding an Audios Research amp and Sonus Faber Olympica 3s. I know of course cables are extremely system dependent and you never know til you try for yourself....I don't live close to any dealers here in Canada.

thank you for your insight !

Paul 

Let me clear - this post is absolutely not a wind up !

My experience with superlumina on CDS3 is entirely positive - I have found it to be sensitive with regard to set up though. I’ve also used hi-line in the past and that had similar quirks. 

I figured there might be other people on the forum who might benefit from my observations and possibly unaware of the centering adjustment. It is surprising just how much extra finesse that getting it right achieves.

Over and out.

Bob_B posted:

Let me clear - this post is absolutely not a wind up !

My experience with superlumina on CDS3 is entirely positive - I have found it to be sensitive with regard to set up though. I’ve also used hi-line in the past and that had similar quirks. 

I figured there might be other people on the forum who might benefit from my observations and possibly unaware of the centering adjustment. It is surprising just how much extra finesse that getting it right achieves.

Over and out.

You are not, and have not been, alone. 

I tend to think of it as a design flaw in the universe - which can be easily ameliorated. 

Bob_B posted:

Just been re-centering the Superlumina from CDS3 to NAC 252 DIN-to-DIN. Wiggle left to right in order to centre then pull out by about a mil. Amazed at the improvement in musicality, flow, detail and richness resulting.

If the Suprlumina has one flaw it is its sensitivity to being set up optimally. Big gains once this is achieved.

In all likelihood its not the Superlumina, its the DIN plug/socket interace that needs to have as little misalignment and asymmetric loading as possible to ensure good alignment. The heavier and stiffer the cable, the more easily DIN plugs and sockets can be misaligned and the corresponding contact area reduced.  I used a combination of self adhesive cable tie holder, cable tie and self adhesive foam draft excluder to secure the cable to my rack, supporting all the cable’s weight and assuring perfect alignment and stability between plug and socket, without mechanically coupling the cable to the rack’s vibrations. The foam lined cable tie should be snug enough to support the cable but with enough compliance to block vibration.

It's a good thing that Airbus and Boeing don't accept that you have to waggle the connectors now and then to get them to work properly because of a design flaw in the Universe..   

brst

David

Ah, that’s because they don’t use DINs or Burndy cables. Think how much smoother the flights would be if they did

Ravenswood10 posted:

Ah, that’s because they don’t use DINs or Burndy cables. Think how much smoother the flights would be if they did

They’d need a hell of a length for the transatlantic routes mind.

G

Bob_B posted:

Just been re-centering the Superlumina from CDS3 to NAC 252 DIN-to-DIN. Wiggle left to right in order to centre then pull out by about a mil. Amazed at the improvement in musicality, flow, detail and richness resulting.

If the Suprlumina has one flaw it is its sensitivity to being set up optimally. Big gains once this is achieved.

Thanks Bob. Nice to see a report on a a bit of implemented tweaking delivering sonic results. Ditto 'inserting and easing-back a tad' SL speaker plugs at both ends.

The forum  has become a bit of a bland desert of late; with much talk about very boring operating system updates for Screaming Audio kit. Nice to see some hands-on stuff.

Good listening.

John.

It is a real effect. One of Naim's people described it and demonstrated it to me a few years back when I took delivery of some equipment.

The whole concept of the multiple-decoupling collars at the plug-ends of the cables was Naim's design to reduce what they found were real effects. Reduce means just that - not eliminate, just reduce. So the fact that some people find that enhancing this decoupling more by centering the plug so it is not hard against one side and can float a bit more free and do more of what Naim designed it to do should not be a big surprise and shocking evidence of poor design IMO.

Thanks for reporting it to more people and weathering all the usual Trolling.

DB.

Yes, good on you Bob_B. It is a shame that some seek to ridicule an honestly held view of a free tweak that others could benefit from, if they bothered to give it a try. Such responses simply serve to deter others from posting, robbing us of some beneficial, if somewhat unusual, suggestions.

Centering adjustment?  Absolutely no strain at all on interconnects?  Just how fragile/delicate is Naim gear?  Sounds like stereo perfectly suited for somebody with OCD.  Ridiculous.

By the way, I've tried many tweaks over the years including ebony pucks on & beside my speakers to both open and focus the soundstage, Shakti electromagnetic stabilizer bricks, decoupling/isolating equipment feet to name but a few.  So, I guess that I have a fairly open mind, but I've also learned, after spending a lot of money, and through gaining some wisdom over the years, that sometimes, such claims are a bit silly.

My 2 cents worth, I recenter/position  my Din/Din Superlumina at both ends regularly, they seem to 'work' their their way out and sit hard (with 2mm gap) against a stop?. Pushing the dins 1/2 way back in (centering them) and hanging the cable free ensuring they arent touching the Fraim etc brings immediate sonic rewards, I demonstrated this easily on a Friends system the other day. With My previous Hi-line I had to do the same routine as well-Chris

I haven't recentered, massaged or otherwise touched any cables lately, and I must say that things sound pretty good here.  Maybe I should do so just in case I'm missing out on some sonic bliss.

Yep

docmark posted:

Centering adjustment?  Absolutely no strain at all on interconnects?  Just how fragile/delicate is Naim gear?  Sounds like stereo perfectly suited for somebody with OCD.  Ridiculous.

And there lies the problem. The standard i/cs SNAICs etc.. are really robust.  Sound great, tough as nails.  However, what Naim discovered is that if you want to take performance further, then you need to get rid of pretty much all the tough, robust stuff.  The prototype of the Air Plug was a scary looking assembly that looked like it would fall apart if you breathed on it to hard, too close. BUT, it really did advance the performance. The actual production Air-Plug was, of course, a far more robust item, as it had to be to be useable and sellable, but even that can seem as fragile as an eggshell compared to the regular plugs. As i learned when I was drafted in to do listening tests to weed out good from bad assemblies while Naim were refining the build process, getting the little things right, with so many "floating" parts, was critical in getting maximum performance potential and also best consistency. I could easily make one sound not as special just by not paying attention to how carefully I connected up the Hi-line. The Air-plug has been further refined and improved with the Super Lumina, but I'm sure that the same rules still apply.  

I take my hat off to Naim for having the guts to put performance first in this way, because if it didn't work as Naim intended then, as docmark says above, it would otherwise be "Ridiculous". For anyone who just can't be bothered with such things, there are the standard leads and connectors which still sound great of course.

Darke Bear posted:

It is a real effect. One of Naim's people described it and demonstrated it to me a few years back when I took delivery of some equipment.

The whole concept of the multiple-decoupling collars at the plug-ends of the cables was Naim's design to reduce what they found were real effects. Reduce means just that - not eliminate, just reduce. So the fact that some people find that enhancing this decoupling more by centering the plug so it is not hard against one side and can float a bit more free and do more of what Naim designed it to do should not be a big surprise and shocking evidence of poor design IMO.

Thanks for reporting it to more people and weathering all the usual Trolling.

DB.

Not trolling but something called a sense of humour. I do have a full SL loom btw

Some people do not appreciate how much thought effort and time goes into obtaining the best possible sound quality and the ongoing tweaking that comes out of this. I suppose this is normal for a normal distribution.

By all means push 'em in tight and/or tighten up the collars to maximum. Job done. Never touch it again and enjoy what is still a superb sonic performance. Alternatively, keep and open mind, listen to what Naim and their dealers recommend, and if you are inclined, go in search of that last 5%.

Or don't.

A tendency to lash out suggests an overcompensation for something else.  Should we care?

Richard, with all due respect, I can understand your position on this.  You are, after all, employed by Naim.  I appreciate all the hard work & design Naim put into their equipment and cables.  Still, if I pay $4,000 for a short piece of cable, such as the SL DIN to XLR interconnect, I don't care who makes it - I expect it to work without fussing with it.  As you say, though, there are plenty of other good standard leads and connectors out there.

Reading Bob’s original post made me realise that I didn’t know the din plugs could be wiggled left and right. I thought best practice was that you just inserted them and then pulled them out by 1mm. I’ve tried the wiggling now, so at least I know they are centred. 

It’s really easy to take the piss out of people who post these little tweaks, and to dismiss things as poor design. But to me this is one of the great strengths of the Forum - helping people to get the best from what they have, rather than recommending that they spend more, more, more. If people get no improvement - perhaps because the pins were aligned without the centring - then all they have lost is a few seconds of their time. But if they get a sonic improvement for those few seconds of time, and their music becomes more enjoyable, then that’s alsolutely wonderful, surely?

Thanks for the suggestion Bob_B and clearly there is some science to explain the benefits of this tweak, as so eloquently described by Richard. This 'adjustment' is something I have been aware of in the back of my mind but it is helpful to get reminders now and again as I value any free upgrade I can get.