Dipping toes into the NAS (world) with no clue and getting rid of the CD player

FWIW, I completely agree with the reflections and advice given by Hmack above. 

Claus

Hmack posted:

As someone who has in the past moved from an ND5XS to a separate renderer/standalone DAC based solution on one of my systems, I believe I can offer some advice and a lengthy boring story of my own experience.

There are a number of factors to consider when looking at options for a 'streaming' system that apply whether the system is designed to stream music from a local NAS or from an external music streaming service such as TIDAL. Some of these factors are pretty obvious and self-explanatory. Others are more difficult to anticipate and evaluate. I should also add that I approached the concept of music streaming as someone with a long background in computing (albeit not specifically network based experience) which gave me a fair degree of confidence that I could eventually manage to get whatever type of solution I chose up-and-running. I also received some invaluable assistance at the time from a number of more experienced members of this forum. As far as I am concerned, the major factors to consider are:

1. Sound quality of the chosen solution - no need to elaborate on this one; 2. Reliability of the chosen solution - once it is set up and running, whichever solution you choose should simply be transparent and continue to work in the background without any intervention or intermittent 'tweaking'; 3. The quality of the 'control app' which one uses on a daily basis to browse and listen to music - In my opinion, the importance of the control app is often underplayed or discarded, but the quality and versatility of the control app (combined with the uPnP server used) in my opinion plays a very important part in respect of user satisfaction. It certainly does in my case.

I started out as a streaming sceptic, but having browsed this forum and others for a while, I decided to give streaming a go. I didn't expect streaming to play anything other than a bit role (pun not really intended) in my second (AV) system, so initially focussed on a relatively cheap streamer from the likes of Pioneer, Cambridge Audio or Marantz as well as the bottom of the range (but much more expensive) options from Naim (ND5XS) and Linn (Majik). I ended up choosing the ND5XS, decided to purchase and install a Synology NAS and dbPoweramp CD ripping software and thought that was the end of it. However, over a period of a few months, I came to appreciate just how much more enjoyable a music playing experience the streamer provided by comparison with the CD player in my main system, and I was absolutely hooked. I purchased a Marantz streamer for use in a vintage bedroom system (the sound quality of the Marantz is pretty good, but the Marantz control app is absolutely woeful by comparison with that of the Naim) and borrowed a Linn Klimax Renew streamer from a friend (who was about to upgrade to a Klimax DSM) to try out in my main system. The Klimax Renew was a revelation to me in respect of both sound quality and convenience, and it took no time at all for me to decide to sell my CD player, purchase the Renew from my friend and move lock stock & barrel to music streaming.

This should have been the end of my story, but of course the upgrade bug then bit as it all too often does. I purchased a 3d party power supply (naughty) for my ND5XS. I considered upgrading my ND5XS to an NDX or Linn Akurate, but was distracted and influenced by the dramatic appearances of A) the Hugo DAC and later B) the microRendu renderer in a number of forum threads & decided to go down this less expensive 'upgrade' route instead. I guess my curiosity was well and truly tweaked by the many dramatic posts of a number of people who had moved to the Hugo in particular. 

So, how do I now feel about my decision?

Well, from a sound quality perspective, my stand-alone Hugo DAC based solution works very well and constitutes what I would consider very good value for money, as no doubt would other stand alone DAC based solutions. I now have a streaming solution in my second system that constitutes good value for money, and comes reasonably close to matching the sound quality of the streamer in my main system. However, as I have indicated in previous posts, there are a number of drawbacks to this approach in my experience and in my opinion:

Whilst the ND5XS/Hugo DAC combination worked very well as an audible upgrade (and allowed me to continue to use the very good - in my opinion - Naim IOS app), I had quite a few set up and configuration issues when I attempted to replace the ND5XS with the microRendu. I eventually overcame most of these, but not before I had almost reached a point of giving up. I still experience problems on this system from time to time that necessitate a re-boot of the mR or some of the software components that run on the mR, and I have not managed to identify a pattern that would indicate why these problems arise from time to time. For me, this is annoying, but as someone with a background of resolving computer based issues (and as someone who almost always builds his own hi-end PCs), it is really no more than an irritation. For someone who does not enjoy working with & tweaking computers it would be much more than that. By contrast, my Linn streamer (now a Klimax DS/1) simply works, as did the ND5XS when I had it.  

I have yet to find a control app for my DAC based solution (I currently use the Lumin app) that I like as much as Linn Kazoo or Naim control apps, and gaining access to Internet radio stations is an absolute pain on this system. This may of course simply come down to personal preference, and others may disagree with my assessment. However, I much prefer playing music on my Linn Klimax DS/1 streamer using the Linn Kazoo control app on my PC/Laptop than I do using my stand alone Hugo DAC with Lumin control app, and not purely because of the better sound quality.  

So Stephen, although some others have argued that standalone DAC based systems can potentially be almost as easy to implement as a streamer/NAS solution, I am still convinced that by far the most straightforward solution, and the one that will provide you with best streaming satisfaction, will be to use a music streamer in conjunction with Asset uPnP on the QNAP NAS you already own. Only you can decide whether this will be a second hand ND5XS, NDX or NAIM 272 or whether you are prepared to wait to audition an NDX5S2. You will end up with something that sounds much better than what you currently use, and which provides a much more enjoyable interface to your music collection to boot. In the future, if you ever feel the need and have the finances to do so, you could easily add a 'better' or new DAC to upgrade your streamer and continue to use the Naim app, or investigate other potential control options such as Roon. However, you may never feel the need, and in my opinion is certainly not something you should be looking at right now. 

Once again, good luck with whichever route you choose to take.

          

Thanks Hmack.

I have really enjoyed reading your post here and by going by your own experiences, the Naim streamer with it's app is the way to go. Like you say, when the upgrade itch needs to be scratched after a certain period, one can add a better DAC to the streamer, which in effect is no different to adding one to a laptop, with much more predictable results to boot.

Come to think of it, a dedicated  Naim streamer must be of great significance to the overall sound otherwise upgrading with a dedicated power supply or moving to the next model up would not make any sense at all, not that i'm into power supply upgrades myself, but even so...

Also, going from your experiences from your excellent post above and the with the many different approaches that you have tried/use and coming to your own conclusion that the streamer and it's control app really matters, along with it's stability and reliability on a daily (real world) basis, combined with Asset uPnP/dBpoweramp and a QNAP, this sounds very appealing indeed and is probably going to be the clincher for me.

Indeed, once setup, all I want to do is just listen to the music without having to do any re-booting or learning to becoming a computer wizard or any of the other things that will distract me from my musical experience in a domestic hi-fi system. Just plug in and play, sit back with a big smile and enjoy what is coming out of the speakers. Now that sounds like a great plan!

Thanks Hmack!

Claus posted:

FWIW, I completely agree with the reflections and advice given by Hmack above. 

Claus

Thanks Claus, I do too. 

I think Hmack has hit the nail on it's head in me deciding which way to go. I just want fuss free streaming solution once i'm setup and running and going from Hmack's experiences, a dedicated Naim streamer for me is the best choice in the long term.

In the mean time i'll just have to slum it with the CD5si until the ND5 XS 2 takes it's place.

Stephen Tate posted:

Claus posted:

FWIW, I completely agree with the reflections and advice given by Hmack above. 

Claus

Thanks Claus, I do too. 

I think Hmack has hit the nail on it's head in me deciding which way to go. I just want fuss free streaming solution once i'm setup and running and going from Hmack's experiences, a dedicated Naim streamer for me is the best choice in the long term.

In the mean time i'll just have to slum it with the CD5si until the ND5 XS 2 takes it's place.

 

You already have a PC/DAC based system, so I guess you already know if you like it or not compared to a dedicated streamer. 

Stephen,

I stated before that I tried using a MacMini as a dedicated streaming source some years ago, and I've experienced several systems using one of those or a laptop. I came to the conclusion that any domestic computer is not good enough to be what I would rate as a high-fidelity source.

We all know that it should (logically) be a simple matter of outputting the same ones and noughts which were fed in. If only digital audio was that simple!

In my opinion, and listening experience; high quality streamed digital audio comes only from a dedicated hi-fi manufacturer streamer or storage device combo such as one of the Melco boxes and a good DAC. It stands to reason that a domestic computer has all sorts of horrible digital noise swilling around, and they run off (by hi-fi standards), a cheap and nasty power-supply.

Naim have taught us that the quality of power-supply is of paramount importance to performance and of course the Naim streamers pay close attention to isolating the various parts of the operational chain.

Good luck.

John.

J.N. posted:

...and they run off (by hi-fi standards), a cheap and nasty power-supply.

The ones I build don't.  

J.N. posted:

SongStream posted:

J.N. posted:

...and they run off (by hi-fi standards), a cheap and nasty power-supply.

The ones I build don't.  

Well there you go Stephen. Buy a laptop from this expert and you'll be sorted.

John.

I'd say more experimental than expert to be fair.  And sorry, Stephen, but selling PCs is not my line of business.  I'm just saying that with a little attention to detail, in software and probably hardware, while there is no reason why anyone should be bothered, a PC can sound pretty good in my view. 

Fair enough SS - personal opinions as ever.

John.

J.N. posted:

Fair enough SS - personal opinions as ever.

John.

The same applies to your post, one could argue. Just another personal opinion...

Timo posted:

J.N. posted:

Fair enough SS - personal opinions as ever.

John.

The same applies to your post, one could argue. Just another personal opinion...

Aren't most of the posts on here personal opinion ?

Just my opinion...

Richard Dane posted:

Timo posted:

J.N. posted:

Fair enough SS - personal opinions as ever.

John.

The same applies to your post, one could argue. Just another personal opinion...

Aren't most of the posts on here personal opinion ?

Just my opinion...

I fear you might be right...

But some still base their posts on actual listening experiences -- i.e. some "data collection"... Admittedly, this data might not have been collected in the most rigorous manner. But possibly it's still more than just a personal opinion...  

J.N. posted:

Stephen,

I stated before that I tried using a MacMini as a dedicated streaming source some years ago, and I've experienced several systems using one of those or a laptop. I came to the conclusion that any domestic computer is not good enough to be what I would rate as a high-fidelity source.

We all know that it should (logically) be a simple matter of outputting the same ones and noughts which were fed in. If only digital audio was that simple!

In my opinion, and listening experience; high quality streamed digital audio comes only from a dedicated hi-fi manufacturer streamer or storage device combo such as one of the Melco boxes and a good DAC. It stands to reason that a domestic computer has all sorts of horrible digital noise swilling around, and they run off (by hi-fi standards), a cheap and nasty power-supply.

Naim have taught us that the quality of power-supply is of paramount importance to performance and of course the Naim streamers pay close attention to isolating the various parts of the operational chain.

Good luck.

John.

 

Thanks for another excellent post here John.

Yes, it stands to reason, for me at least anyway, that it just feels plain wrong using a laptop as a music source in a hi-fi system, especially with such high quality components as Naim, regardless of level in their range. Therefore, I can't wait to ditch the laptop for streaming duties as well as storage but only to used it for ripping direct to the NAS. I feel, the further away I can get the laptop from the hi fi the better.

I hope to be slotting in an brand new Naim ND5 XS 2 streamer combined with my QNAP into the near future. It just feels right that this is the way to go. Mind you having said that, by the time Naim release the ND5 XS 2 I might of saved up enough to get a NDX2 instead.

Only joking Naim., I wish I wasn't joking

I think it's quite clear that John's opinion has been formed through listening.  And while I find that a PC can sound great, I would not bother to recommend it to a typical music / hifi enthusiast, as aside from SQ there are some pretty difficult hurdles to overcome in terms of how interact with the thing.  It's not for everyone.  And ultimately not for me, it's just a means to an end for now, and the one I built with the specific purpose in mind 4 years ago performs well for me.  I even created a solid copper faraday cage to surround the CPU area of the main board, in an attempt to minimize interference in the USB bus, and that was before the ND555 had even been invented. 

Stephen, just keep it simple

QNAP-Naim Streamer-I pad = Lovely easy to use music at your finger tips.

Pcd posted:

Stephen, just keep it simple

QNAP-Naim Streamer-I pad = Lovely easy to use music at your finger tips.

Yep, what he said.

Pcd posted:

Stephen, just keep it simple

QNAP-Naim Streamer-I pad = Lovely easy to use music at your finger tips.

Exactly what is required. Thanks 

Yes indeed Richard - it's all about opinions based on personal experience and exposure to what is ultimately a limited range of kit (and rooms) for most of us. It's human nature to want to share information about what works for us as individuals.

I've commented to tyros here before - 'From Naim and a good dealer you will get good advice. Here; you might just get paranoia' - as a result of wildly differing opinions and advice.

I'm learning as I get older that as individuals, we seem to perceive and mentally process sound differently/uniquely? The recent 'Laurel/Yanny' thing doing the rounds on social media was an eye/ear opener.

Why do some of use get/love the sound of vinyl and some do not? Illogical.

One day; some clever person will work out what's going on and (potentially) spoil all the fun.

Back to specifics. A friend was running a MacBook (with .wav ripped music files thereon) through a good Weiss DAC and I couldn't believe how bad it sounded. The said friend put the pertinent CD's in his 15 year old Meridian transport (via the same DAC) for a comparison, and the difference/improvement in SQ for me was staggering.

As SongStream commented; a domestic computer can be made to sound a lot better by attention to the power-supply and other areas. I experimented with a dedicated a MacMini as a music server (via two different good DACs), and my Naim CD5si sounded a lot better to me, but there would seem to be a lot of audiophiles out there who are happy with the sound of a domestic computer on server duties.

To some extent, I think it's the inherent 'Naimness' and synergy of their electronics which (principally) does it for me. Though I've also been impressed by the Melco units feeding good DAC's such as the Chord Dave; thence to Naim amplification.

Stephen - I'd like to impart some information which lies outside forum rules, so by all means email me (as listed in my profile) if you wish.

John.

I play Audirvana UPnP out of a Mac mini, and Asset UPnP out of a QNAP. I think the one from Audirvana sounds better (to my ears). 
If bad sound comes from a laptop or a PC, it must be down to the cabling, be it USB without an isolator or a bad optical link.

Stephen Tate posted:

Pcd posted:

Stephen, just keep it simple

QNAP-Naim Streamer-I pad = Lovely easy to use music at your finger tips.

Exactly what is required. Thanks 

Stephen, if you want to go streaming, that is the right path for you. Remember- KISS.

Fact, not opinion! I have all the data to support this assertion.

Now don't get deflected.

With regard to computers as renderers, What is very significant is that effective RF blocking is bsolutely critical for some DACs, and important for others, (depending on inbuilt rejection in the DAC).  Hugo 1 is particularly susceptible, Dave extremely effective at blovking.  And my understanding is that some blockers are far more effective than others, so that and the DAC’s susceptibility are factors in any assessment, often overlooked.

Even the best linear regulated supply doesn’t stop RF at source, only reduces it - computers themselves produce RF by way of their ‘clocks’, though with less at source there is less to block. And the likes of Melco, and even Naim streamers have integral computers, however much they are disguised, so they all produce RF - however of course the whole point of the dedicated ones is their reduced level and thus more easily blocked. RF may well be the mist significant factor in differences between different renderers, whether the ND5XS or NDX (feeding the same external DAC), or Melco or Innuos Zenith etc. 

As for vinyl, as has been said, some people don’t ‘get’ the love others have for its inherently reduced fidelity compared to digital (assuming good recordings), however in at least one recent thread discussing there were some pretty good postulations. But at the end of the day it is horses for courses, just as some people like the sound of some speakers, and others can’t stand them...

Innocent Bystander posted:

Naim streamers have integral computers, however much they are disguised, so they all produce RF

Agreed, and this is what most people do not realize, or do not want to know.

nigelb posted:

Stephen Tate posted:

Pcd posted:

Stephen, just keep it simple

QNAP-Naim Streamer-I pad = Lovely easy to use music at your finger tips.

Exactly what is required. Thanks 

Stephen, if you want to go streaming, that is the right path for you. Remember- KISS.

Fact, not opinion! I have all the data to support this assertion.

Now don't get deflected.

Nigel, at the risk of being ricocheted all over the place I promise to not become deflected.

Interesting though...

"As for vinyl, as has been said, some people don’t ‘get’ the love others have for its inherently reduced fidelity compared to digital (assuming good recordings)"

And there's the personal taste and perception conundrum - For me; on what I consider a good recording on vinyl; it offers the highest fidelity, outstripping 'good digital' by a margin.

I was enjoying my 'Regatta de Blanc' LP with two friends here yesterday and the dynamic slam of the title track was stunning. I've yet to hear any digital version get close in terms of organic realism and visceral musical engagement. A bit hairy round the edges for sure, but the vinyl is devoid of the hashy veil I hear from digital replay media.

I will happily concede that vinyl is an inherently very compromised and flawed music replay medium. It has no right to sound as good as it does. The fact that many audiophiles still love what it does, speaks for itself. Deliciously illogical.

Diff'rent strokes, as you say I.B.

John.

how can you convince a blind man that a flower is beautiful?

French Rooster posted:

how can you convince a blind man that a flower is beautiful?

Texture, shape, scent.