LP12 Radikal Problem

Peder initiated the thread, Peter (Symbiosis) put things into perspective. Peter is the world foremost LP 12 expert, if I were in the UK. I would pay him a visit, even I set up my own LP 12.

I’d tend to agree and would encourage the OP, although well intended, not to be so alarmist. Yes there may have been one or two folk with issues but not on the scale supposed. I’ve bought into Linn since the 1980s and feel sure that if there was a generic problem that they would have acted on it by now.

.......also why isn’t this on the Linn forum?

Still weird how Linn can’t deliver the message of re-assurance to the post on their forum, I think it’s bad form.

Peter cares about his customers and Linn.

Could members please be mindful of forum rules - specifically regarding cross-forum discussions.  Thanks.

Hello again ????

Have to respond to Peter Swain and other people's posts.This is a long post ????.

Some think I shouldn't be so alarming when I talk about the problem, but,... this is a BIG problem.
And on a turntable that are so expensive, this is an alarming problem,.. As it also seems to have existed already 2010 (see Alto's post here in the thread).
The sentence is just that all of you here, who have an LP12 with Radikal/Trampolin2, should know about this and be able to control your players..... themselves or at your dealer.

Let me first say, and also be very clear on this,... I have the highest respect for Peter Swain (Cymbiosis), have also talked to him a few years ago, if he wants to come to us in northern Sweden and put his magical hands on our LP12's.
Peter is also careful to point out that he only describes his experience,... how many LP12's he discovered with this problem.
One in 6-7 years, as well as a customer who screws in his LP12 himself.

Here in Sweden we have completely different figures, and even in the US it seems.
But first, let me introduce our best here in Sweden at LP12's setups.

◾ Karl Ehrenholm,...one of two owners of Linn-store High Fidelity in Stockholm since 1994. But Karl has worked there since 1989.
Karl is very famous and respected by Linn HQ... he made for example his own Keel a year before Linn released their Keel.

Karl's father has machines so he can do this.It was so good that a friend of him still has it in his LP12.

He has also made many other discoveries that Linn has implanted.
He has never written on forums, and is therefore not as famous outside Sweden,... as Peter Swain, for example.... but without having compared, so is probably both Karl and Peter on the same level. It's 1000 km from us to Stockholm,but many of us take our players to Karl for a proper setup.

Linn invites a group of about 8 of the best merchants once a year,... Karl is always invited, presuming that Peter Swain is also part of that group.

◾ Fredrik Lejonklou,...old Linn trader since the end 80 century. Now manufacturers with he's own pre/power etc range (Lejonklou Hifi) that has reached world renown..... also has English retailers etc.
LP12 Specialist, who is at the same extreme level as Karl.
Also travel around the world, at Hifi-Shows and visit customers and install LP12's and system installations etc.

Both Karl and Fredrik became aware of this LP12 problem in the spring/summer of 2017, when Per in our group discovered this.

????The LP12's they checked after that time,both have said, that 60% have had this problem. These are completely different figures than Peter has.???? 

Fredrik wrote like this,...(I wrote earlier that I have permission from Fredrik to use his writing).......Fredrik wrote.....
???? I'm thinking maybe ya'll don't quite get the magnitude of this.

So many LP12-related mysteries of the past that are now most like explained by this problem.

The difference between when the motor remains on the trampoline foot and when it's not is like the difference between a mediocre vinyl session with a slight headache and a magical night of intense emotions when you just have to play one more album.
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Fredrik also wrote.....
???? I have a growing suspicion that those who label this problem as "rare", either don't understand it, or don't know how to check it.

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30 × 300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem.

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◾ Thomas O'Keefe,..(nickname ThomasOK on forums) from USA, .... Linn retailer,LP12 specialist since 1978. A manufacturer, distributor, retailer.... very well known and respected on various forums....as well as an LP12 specialist.
I have talked to Thomas some week ago,reason,... I asked him if I got to use his writing too....... which I got.

Both Frederick and ThomasOK writes the better English than I,...that's why ????.

ThomasOK writes this,and replies to Fredrik,......
???? I'm going to have to agree with Fredrik here, that the problem is like more prevalent than most realized, including myself. I don't have any numbers at this point to quantify it but I do have an interesting story.

It was a little bit slow at the store today, and I was fresh out of LP12s to work on. Then I remembered that I wanted to look at the store Climax LP12, as I haven't been thrilled with its performance for a while. So I popped it into the jig, unfastened the Urika, put the paper strip on top of the foot under the radical motor and screwed that corner and a few other screws back in, then took it out of the jig and set it on the counter. You guessed it, the paper didn't ' t want to budge. So out to the hardware store for some more wood strips (I stocked up a bit this time) and I performed the MoD on the LP12. Before I fastened it back on I checked the suspension but all was OK there. Torqued the set screw on the arm pillars and the ground connection to the Urika and fastened it all together. Wow! The musical improvement is anything but subtle. Even on the first track I played, which didn't ' t have much bass, there was obviously improved flow and texture, easily more tuneful. Then playing some tracks with a fair bit going on in the bass the bass power, timing and resolution was in a completely different league. So This is something that anyone with a Radikal and Urika or Trampolin should investigate.

To give you an idea of how much this hampers the sound,I should mention that Linn held an event here a little over a month ago with a Linn Lounge preceded by a session on the history of the LP12 with some demonstrations. In The demos the Climax LP12 was compared with a Majik LP12 through a Uphorik. While the audience most heard the improvement in clarity of the Climax LP12 there was actually one person who preferred the Majik! All of us here noticed that the Climax LP12 was definitely not clobbering the Majik like it should have, and I thought there was something nice to the flow if the Majik, although I didn't ' t feel it was as good as the climax version. I haven 't run that same comparison as I just now finished the MoD and did a quick listen. But I believe that the comparison would now leave no doubt as to the substantial musical upgrade that the Climax LP12 should and doesn't normally provide.

While in recommend the paper strip test to confirm this problem or the varnish of it, I also noticed that tapping the bottom of the Urika near the feet normally gives a bit of a drum sound, damped to be sure but still with a little resonance to it. Tapping by the foot under the motor before the MoD gave a completely dead sound. So you could try this first and see what you get.

By the way, the plinth was a stock Linn walnut with a height of 65mm, which seems to be the standard height for a Linn plinth. So, again, it is quite like this is a problem for a significant ratio of radical LP12s. I thank Fredrik for bringing this to light. It looks like I'm going to have to be investigating a lot of customer LP12s.

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This is an interesting reading, from a well known and respected USA Linn LP12 specialist, who earlier didn't thought that this was a big problem.

Or Karl's and Fredrik's findings,..... 60 % of the LP12's they have control here in Sweden have this problem.

But,....Just Listen for yourself... As Simply As That. Don't trust me or any other,...Trust your own ears.

Some have already written in this thread that this information has been helpful, others may be helped now. And,that was the meaning with this thread.
Many here have an LP12 in their Naim system, who knows.....you may not have heard how your Naim setup should sound with a fresh LP12 yet ????.

And,....respect Richard Dane's wish. No cross-forum discussions or bad talk about Linn.This is just a thread of a Hifi issue.

Here you have the right perspective of the problem,...or issue.

/Peder ????

Hello Peder,

Has anyone in your 'group' asked Linn if the motor can have a shallower can? And if so, what was the answer?

(Hopefully, me asking questions doesn't contravene forum rules, Richard will say).

C.

Here is links to the pictures about the issue and how to solve it. I do this from my phone,and I can't post in the whole picture from it,....just the links.

Can anybody post pictures from their phone,...I have a Windows Lumia 950 phone...maybe because of that. But it's their "flagship-phone" so it should go.....I think ????.

◾ The thin paper strip 30x300 mm for control if you have the issue.
https://i.imgur.com/s9fgeza.jpg

◾ The Motor touch the Trampolin2 foot inside LP12.
https://i.imgur.com/ouDj3Tb.jpg

◾ The Trampolin Modification before you put it under the LP12 plint.
https://i.imgur.com/gtmr4ea.jpg

◾ The Trampolin2 1,5mm down after the modification.
https://i.imgur.com/WIYaPQx.jpg

◾ The Paper schema for information.
https://i.imgur.com/k4IOtbx.jpg

/Peder???? 

Fair play to you Peder, you’re right to highlight this. Even if there’s only a handful of owners (hopefully not the 1 in 2 ratio suggested!) that need a correction done, it’s important. I respect the amount of time and effort you put into explaining the findings and your own workaround.

I explained with my message of 07/05/2018 to have lived this real anomaly, the base of the engine which affects the joint of suspension of Radikal.
The same problem with 2 different frames, a frame Afromasia 1978 and Oak of 2015. I inserted a thickness 1,5 mm, the joint wood are not easy because of the low thickness, I prefer joint cardboard, pvc, or alu

Why make linn fix this total c*ck up on a £15k+ deck when you can do it yourself with cardboard??

Perhaps Linn could introduce "Kardboard” onto the retail list....

That sounds very Swedish.

Yet another long post ????........

Thomas O'Keefe (ThomasOK on forums), Linn-retailer USA, LP12 specialist,... see his previous writing in my last long post.

Thomas sent me an e-mail with this information, (I have permission to post it here)..... see below.

Interestingly, that Thomas has investigated 4 LP12 in a week, which all had this problem.
And,out of 7 LP12, that we have investigated the last 8 weeks, so had 5 this problem.

◾ As well as Karl's and Fredrik's, (see my last long Post) results, 60% of the LP12 verdict that traders investigated, had this problem.

Conclusion: No one can probably, anymore claim that this is a rare problem.!!

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◾ Fredrik Lejonklou,.... LP12 Specialist, meets probably right when he notes.......

???? I have a growing suspicion that those who label this problem as "rare", either don't understand it, or don't know how to check it.

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Great that ThomasOK writes, and reports so in detail to us...... respect.!! ???????????? 

◾ Thomas O ' Keefe's (ThomasOK) post.....
???? Unfortunately I can no longer consider this a rare phenomena. The problem with the actual screw touching is infrequent and I have always dealt with this in the past by using a Dremel to grind down the screw. Linn responded to this by using shorter screws on the Urika that don't protrude above the ring, then also rotating the screw positions on the Urika so none of the screws were under the motor and later donig the same to the trampoline 2. This problem, however, comes from the bottom of the motor being pushed in contact with the rubber clad metal mounting ring of the foot when the Urika/T2 is screwed to the bottom of the plinth. This can easily happen without it being obvious that the two are pressed together. While I think it is going a bit far to say it is completely destroys the sound, I do find there is a kind of deadness and sluggishness to the music when these two are in contact and a significant improvement in tunefulness, impact, texture and drive when it is corrected.

My suspicion is that the radical is such a huge improvement that this smaller loss was not noted. But over time some have become less enamored of their LP12s and have noticed that others units have been more musical. As far as I am aware, there were a group of Linn customers in Sweden, who first figured out what was happening and my associates there and in Italy did some more testing and came to the same conclusions which they shared with me. Fredrik Lejonklou also came up with a workable solution of installing thin wooden strips between the Urika/T2 and the plinth to space the two apart a little over 1mm. I first tried this last week on the store's demo Climax LP12 which recently underperformed compared to our demo Majik LP12 in some direct comparisons. So I acquired some 1.5 mm by 5mm balsa strips, marked and drilled them, and installed them on the demo Climax LP12. This brought a definite improvement in musicality with an especially more textured and dynamic bass.

I have now done this modification to four different LP12s, the latest a brand new unit with radical, Keel, Akito3, Adikt and Trampolin 2 and definitely find it worth doing. From reports elsewhere I would suspect that this is more common than we would like to think. The store demo and the latest unit I worked on both have plinths that are 65mm tall and the other two I did were 64.5 mm. On all these the 1.5 mm thick strips cured the problem. A report I have seen from another person who tested for it found no contact on his unit with a plinth just under 69mm. My Personal plinth is actually an early Woodsong plinth from when Chris used to make them noticeably taller than Linn plinths and as it is 70mm tall there is no chance of contact there. My guess is that if your plinth is 66.5 mm or taller, and likely even 66mm tall, you are probably all right (although it might still be worth testing as sometimes the top plate seat a touch lower than others). However, the majority of the Linn plinths that I have measured in the last few weeks are 65mm and those are subject to the problem.

It seems to me that a revised trampoline 2/Urika base, where the area that the feet are fitter to have circles that are pressed downward by somewhere in the 1.5 to 2mm range, would increase that spacing and solve the problem. In the meantime I have laid in a stock of balsa strips and am contacting my LP12/radical customers to come back in for a checkup. I just feel bad that we didn't ' t discover this a while ago. But A number of people are going to be very happy when they hear what additional musicality their LP12 can provide. This has all been reported to Linn and our local rep is following up on it so I am hopeful they will be able to duplicate our findings and come up with a more elegant solution.

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And,again.....respect Richard Dane's wish. No cross-forum discussions or bad talk about Linn.This is just a thread of a Hifi issue.

/Peder ????

Heavens - makes you wonder why it's so complicated.

No wonder the brilliantly simple alternative is so popular...

The Games up Linn, come out with your hands in the air!.....we have you surrounded.

The Chord Blu2 ..... another alternative....... 

james n posted:

Heavens - makes you wonder why it's so complicated.

No wonder the brilliantly simple alternative is so popular...

Ooooh, that looks rather nice...

And yes of the joint cardboard was compressed for motor crankcase , between 1mm and 1,5mmm, it is very well with trampoline/ radikal. It is so very well to replace joint silicone HP Linn Sara and DMS

Christopher_M posted:

Hello Peder,

Has anyone in your 'group' asked Linn if the motor can have a shallower can? And if so, what was the answer?

(Hopefully, me asking questions doesn't contravene forum rules, Richard will say).

C.

???? Hi Christopher_M,.... missed, or forgot to answer your question.... or,... pondered how I would answer to stick to the forum rules..... excuse me. Will try to answer here.

What I can say, without breaking the forum rules is..... No, we have not received any thoughts, suggestions for solutions.
According to Linn, the Official Explanation is, that this is within the specifications. That the Radical engine can take in the Trampolin2 foot.
We have also received this on email.

Without saying too much, I can say that there we differ in perception..... read, among other things, my 2 last long posts.

Our suggestions for solutions....
◾ Make a higher LP12 plint. Instead of 65mm, maybe the 69-70mm. This already makes 3rd party's manufacturer of LP12 plints, Chris Harban (Woodsong).

◾ Make a recess in the trampoline bottom-plate where the four feet should sit.... say 2-3mm so that the feet get farther away from the radical engine.
But the question is, how this affects the resonance frequency, as the bottom-plate will then become stiffer.

◾ Or as you suggest, if it goes.... reduce the height of the engine casing.

All of these actions will somehow affect the sound quality, for Linn says of course themselves regarding their LP12.... that all matters.

We also know that this is true, all who has longer experience of this iconic product.

In the meantime, it is probably the best compromise, to address the problem, as Fredrik Lejonklou proposes.
Fredrik's solution is described in previous posts, there are also links to pictures, so you can look for yourselves.

Thomas O ' Keefe (ThomasOK on forums),... Linn retailer and LP12-specialist USA since 1978, confirms that Fredrik's solution is the best until further notice.
Now has also ThomasOK been in contact with Linn HQ, and also Linn's representative in the United States, as he himself writes here in the thread,..... and hopes for a more elegant solution to the problem.

I put the links to the pictures of the problem, and Fredrik Lejonklou's suggestion how to fix it again.... ????????????????????????

◾ The Motor touch the Trampolin2 foot inside The LP12.
Https://i.imgur.com/ouDj3Tb.jpg

◾ The Thin paper strip 30x300 mm, for control if you have this problem.
Https://i.imgur.com/s9fgeza.jpg

◾ The trampoline Modification before you put it under The LP12 terminal.
Https://i.imgur.com/gtmr4ea.jpg

◾ The Trampolin2 1, 5mm down after The modification.
Https://i.imgur.com/WIYaPQx.jpg

◾ The Paper schema for information.
Https://i.imgur.com/k4IOtbx.jpg

Again,Christopher_M,....excuse a late reply, and hope I kept myself within the forum rules.

/Peder ????

Hi Peder,

Thank you for your gracious and very detailed reply. I had the feeling that the very simple question about the depth of the motor casing was worth asking.

Best wishes,

Chris (LP12 owner, the limits of whose ambitions are a Lingo 4!)

???? I Have To Remind,..That You Really ????    
       Control Your LP12,If You Have.......

◾ Radikal,Urika,Trampolin2.....

Below is the latest information from Tomas O'Keefe (ThomasOK, on forums).
Linn-Trader USA, LP12-Specialist since 1978, he has written earlier in the thread.

The only safe way to check this on, is to use the described "paper test 30 * 300mm"... see the uploads image-links.
Slightest contact between Radikal motor and Trampolin-foot affects performance negatively, see Thomas O'Keefe's writing below.....

As I said before,I have permission of Thomas, to post his writes..how to solve the problem.

Ignore what Linn or any trader says,just trust your ears and control this.
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◾Thomas O'Keefe writes.....
I thought I should mention here, that Tony Tune-age posted a writeup about my applying this mod to his LP12, in the Me and my system section. Here is the link:

Here I removed the link, to respect the forum rules, but look at Lejonklou's forum,for text and pictures.

Thomas continues below....

I think it does a good job of covering what is done, and more importantly the musical benefits he heard.
 Interestingly His plinth is 65mm, but with a Khan top plate. This combination made for a very slight contact of the bottom of the motor, with the ring of the Urika foot such that the paper could be pulled out but with a small amount of resistance.

 I wasn't sure how much difference this would make, but Tony found the same kinds of improvements we have heard on other LP12s, that have been similarly fixed.

To me it narrows this down a bit, by showing that any contact at all is musically harmful, and also that 65mm appears to be just below the break point.
 My guess is that 66mm and above would be fine, and 65.5 mm might even be OK.

It is still important to test any LP12 that is suspect, as the depth of the rebate for the bottom, and the height of the blocks and strips can vary slightly.
 Indeed I set up a brand new LP12 with Linn Plinth recently, where the top plate was just a hair below being flush with the plinth.
So a plinth with a 66mm height still might have a problem.
The only way to know is to test it.

◾ Thomas also writes......
A Little Clarification.
As stated, this problem can be there with Linn or third party plinths. My Plinth is a relatively early Woodsong plinth when Chris made them a bit taller to show off the wood better. 

Mine is actually 70mm tall so no chance of it having the problem. I am actually the one who recommended Chris make them closer to standard Linn plinth height, as the 70mm ones look a little bit heavy compared to a stock plinth. (In hindsight maybe that wasn't ' t such a good call.)

 Most of the Linn plinths I have measured have been 65mm, with one of the two newest ones being 64.5 mm, so there is still some slight variance.
 There can also be slight variances in how deep the rebatee for the bottom is, and how close to the top of the plinth the top plate mounting strips and blocks are.
As Chris mentions, it is the distance between these two that is critical.

???? My experience is, that this is actually a fairly common problem.
 Since I was made aware of the possibility, the majority of the LP12s I have worked on failed the test using the paper strip. 

All those in modified, ad per Tony's post, have been reported to have similar improvements in musical quality, and I posted a couple of before and after clips on the Lejonklou forum,that demonstrate what you can expect to hear. 

The LP12 Tony brought in, had the least resistance to pulling the paper out of any LP12 where there was contact.
Yet He still heard the same kinds of improvements others have, as he enumerated above.
 Since His plinth is 65mm I expect that anything 66mm and above would be OK, and maybe even 65.5 mm would be.
But due to the differences in the plinths mentioned above, it is worth checking those as well just to be sure.

As Chris stated, machining down a part of the ring on the trampoline foot in that corner is another way to address the problem.
But I Find the wood strips to be a relatively simple fix, with no negative musical side effects.

You sometimes might need to replace a screw or two with longer ones to get the proper amount of grip into the plinth, but most plinths I have done needed 0 or 1 longer screw. 

Long term,plinths that are a little taller or a motor housing that is a little shorter would address the problem.
 Another relatively simple production change, would be to press round depressions into the trampoline/Urika plate for the feet to fit down into, thereby lowering the rings a couple etc.

 This would also allow a retrofit without having to change the plinth or motor, both of which would be more costy and more difficult to replace.
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I'll later add links here,to photos where ThomasOK fixes this problem.
Then you will see even more,how now to be done if you choose to fix this yourself.

/Peder ????

✋???? STOP,..IMPORTENT,LP12-Radikal Problem.❗❗

Do you remember this heading ????,you who have followed the thread (it's soon 4000 views), understand enough now why I chose it.

We invest so much money,...and time in our music-systems,so if someone discovers something obvious wrong,....yes then I take it for granted that we inform each other.
Then it depends on how the company that committed the error handles it,which shows the quality of the company.
For everyone can do wrong,...both you and me.

????Below comes Thomas O'Keefe's latest update on "LP12 Radikal Problem".

Thomas,as I said earlier is Linn-trader,and a recognized talented,well-known and respected LP12 specialist since 1978,he is from the United States.
I am incredibly grateful that we can share Thomas's experience and knowledge of the LP12 problem.
Thomas's screws in more LP12's than we as private individuals,and will then have a much larger assessment basis.He is also in contact with other dealers around the world.

See also Thomas previous writes,in my previous posts here in the thread.

◾ Thomas O'Keefe writes,......
With the exception of my own LP12 with its 70mm plinth.
Every Radical LP12 I have worked on since I first heard about this problem from Fredrik, has had a plinth height between 64mm and 65mm,whether made by Linn or Woodsong.
Every single one of those has needed the mod for best performance.
????So Obviously this is not a rare occurrence. ????

With Thomas O'Keefe's conclusion,I would like to recall....
◾ Frederick Lejonklou's also drawn conclusion again.....
???? I have a growing suspicion that those who label this problem as "rare",either don't understand it,or do not know how to check it.

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30 × 300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem. ????

For more information on how to check your LP12 with this "Paper test", see the thread, where you can also find links to pictures.

But here below,Thomas O'Keefe's last update on the LP12-problem....????????????

???? A further update.
I have worked on two more LP12s with radical and Urika or trampoline 2.
On a unit brought back by a customer for a cable change on his Urika and another that I installed the radical and trampoline 2 onto as well as a Kore.
Both needed the mod to keep the radical engine from pressing on the Trampolin foot. The Urika LP12 with a 65mm tall Woodsong Movingui Plinth was definitely pressing hard against the foot-I would have ripped the paper if I had pulled it any harder.
This is in contrast the Tony Tune-Age's LP12 which also had a Woodsong Movingui 65mm plinth But where there was only a little pressure and the paper could be pulled out.

So another indication of small variances of internal dimensions in plinths with the same height and the need to test.
Both These Movingui plinths were relatively early Woodsong production, before Chris realized that there could be a problem.
This Latest 65mm Plinth table sounded to me like there might not be a problem when tapping the Urika near each of the feet yet it was pressing hard.
????So you do need to do the paper test to be sure.

The other turntable I installed the Kore, radical and trampoline 2 into was a Linn afromosia plinth with a height of only 64mm.

A plinth with the larger corner braces but before the motor stud on the top plate came out.
This is the lowest one I have seen yet so it was pretty obvious it would need the mod. 
Once everything was ready to be fitted with the wood strips in place I put the paper strip in to make sure there was enough added height not to be a problem with the 64mm plinth height.

The paper was completely free so no contact of the motor and foot. Since the wood strips I use are about 1.5 mm thick (with some slight variance).
This further indicates to me that it is like the break point is about 65.5 mm in plinth height. So 66mm high plinths are likely to be OK, 65mm are not and 65.5 mm might be ok but I would certainly test it (I would also test 66mm units just to be sure until we have more information).

With the exception of my own LP12 with its 70mm plinth.
Every Radical LP12 I have worked on since I first heard about this problem from Frederick, has had a plinth height between 64mm and 65mm, whether made by Linn or Woodsong.

Every single one of those has needed the mod for best performance. So Obviously this is not a rare occurrence. ???? 

Now with Thomas figures on the LP12-problem,and also previously reported......
Fredrik and Karl,LP12-specialists,traders from Sweden....60% of the players they checked have this problem.
As well as our own numbers,5 out of 7 that we checked had this problem.

Hope this clarifies the issue and also the magnitude of the issue as being reported here.

I sincerely hope that all the information in this thread,allows you to check your LP12 so that it is OK,or will be after the mod we have talked about here.
Image-Links are added later.....

/Peder ????

Trampoline2 2006-Trampoline Urika 2009.
With baseboard of 65mm, vinyl after 140gr the base radikal touches the membrane suspension of trampoline2; with the weight Urika added in trampoline2, I suppose that the weight of the vinyl is sensitive. A tongue of 1 in 1.5mm is well

I suppose this is one advantage of not having a Tramp or any baseboard at all. I don't....

vintageaxeman posted:

I suppose this is one advantage of not having a Tramp or any baseboard at all. I don't....

???? Vintageaxeman,....When Mana acoustics were produced and sold,there were many who drove without baseboard on that shelf.... especially in England if I understood correctly.

Myself,...I have never tried without baseboard, trampoline.

/Peder ????