LP12 Radikal Problem

Peder posted:

vintageaxeman posted:

I suppose this is one advantage of not having a Tramp or any baseboard at all. I don't....

???? Vintageaxeman,....When Mana acoustics were produced and sold,there were many who drove without baseboard on that shelf.... especially in England if I understood correctly.

Myself,...I have never tried without baseboard, trampoline.

/Peder ????

And some are still doing it. My baseboardless LP12 sits on a phase 4 Mana wall shelf and I'm still happy with it, although I remain curious about the much vaunted Tiger Paw Vulkan. Not that there's much likelihood of my changing, given the near-impossibility of setting up a comparative dem. But if the house burned down, my replacement LP12 would likely be sitting on a Vulkan.

C

Once upon a time, Linn would have had to meet safety standards, to get the LP12 approved for sale in all the countries it was to be sold in.  And just like on the rear of my father's huge Phillips valve radio in the sixties, they originally faced the problem with a piece of hardboard. It was a case of 'needs must', rather than following sonic assessment. The same is true of the metal corner brackets which were insisted upon by the Canadian market 'just in case a glued corner joint failed.' Other than that, the tiny metal brackets serve no useful purpose. And of course if the fixing screws were ever loose, they would become a source of vibration and rattle.

It was only when the Tramp 1 was released, that there was the advantage of allowing one to level up the turntable with its adjustable feet.  But there WAS controversy at the time about whether 'base on', or 'base off' sounded better. I was, and have always been, in the latter camp.  For Linn, it was a base that felt a bit more like an 'engineering solution' than 'just a bit of hardboard'. And the feet were supposedly better than the tiny little RS Components 'off the shelf'  standard rubber ones that had been fitted to hundreds of designs from many other companies for decades. In short, the Tramp was a product designed for Linn to say 'It has been designed this way as part of the comprehensive LP12 system approach'. I for one never accept such philosophies at face value.

I have not used a baseboard on my various LP12s for decades. I know that there used to be mains voltages inside an LP12, but as I was the only person in my house who would access my LP12's inside, I was confident that no-one else was being put in harm's way. (For many years I was also running valve amps with similar threats to my immortality!)

My LP12 is now running a DC motor. No high voltages inside, then. But I do have full access to tweak the suspension, check the cable dressing, etc., and there is no risk of resonance from a fibre, plywood, acrylic, aluminium or unobtanium baseplate! (Nor a risk of the DC motor fouling the baseplate, if there isn't the latter!

I can experiment with the feet on my LP12 too. They are mounted under the wooden corner braces, so I have no limit to what I can try out in this regard. As a designer, I am able to think about, experiment with, and arrive at, alternative design solutions. And when it comes to my main hobby, being creative with materials can pay real dividends. Sometimes, if you're lucky, dividends of the sonic variety!

I am SURE that even the latest baseboards resonate. And despite the 'shorter cable benefits' of the latest Urika 3 and 4 designs, some of that resonances inside an LP12 WILL affect into the Urika preamp components. (If you have ever, as a child, stuck your head inside an empty cardboard box, or a waste paper bin, you can make your voice boom like Darth Vader's.)  An empty box six sided WILL resonate much more than a topless or bottomless one.

So I do fully understand that if using a modern Urika pre, it will be fixed to a pukka Linn baseboard, and I too would love a brand new, fully Klimaxed LP12, but funds only allow me to buy the best gear if it either pre-owned, or 'earlier generation', or both.  So I carefully decide what to put my money into, and a resonating baseboard of ANY material has never been on my hit list. 

Corry posted:

Peder posted:

vintageaxeman posted:

I suppose this is one advantage of not having a Tramp or any baseboard at all. I don't....

???? Vintageaxeman,....When Mana acoustics were produced and sold,there were many who drove without baseboard on that shelf.... especially in England if I understood correctly.

Myself,...I have never tried without baseboard, trampoline.

/Peder ????

And some are still doing it. My baseboardless LP12 sits on a phase 4 Mana wall shelf and I'm still happy with it, although I remain curious about the much vaunted Tiger Paw Vulkan. Not that there's much likelihood of my changing, given the near-impossibility of setting up a comparative dem. But if the house burned down, my replacement LP12 would likely be sitting on a Vulkan.

C

???? CORRY,...Tiger Paw Vulkan is a very good wall shelf,it is a copy of the almost legendary AudioTech wall shelf.

But,..if you have a AudioTech wall shelf,so you should keep it,and not switch to a Tiger Paw Vulkan.....AudioTech wall Shelf is better.

We have tested on the same wall,under just the same conditions.
However,if you do not have a AudioTech, and do not find a Mana-wallshelf second hand, so buy a Tiger Paw Vulkan.
Tiger Paw Vulkan's top-plate is available in two different thicknesses,if you have a LP12 so choose the thinner top-plate.... it plays better.

But,..as I said,..Mana Wall Shelf is the best of these three.
We have tested these three, on the same wall under just the same conditions.
But Mana wall shelf is hard to find, as it is not manufactured anymore.

All three require "Attention To Detail" during the installation,...but the Mana wall shelf is extra cumbersome.
Advice,..read the instruction manual carefully and don't skimp on installation.... everything affects and is heard.

/Peder ????

????PICTURES of the MODIFICATION,ThomasOK.

As I have said before,ThomasOK is a trader, distributor and a recognized talented and respected LP12 specialist since 1978.
You have probably also understood this when you have read ThomasOK's earlier writes.He has also developed a special Rack for the LP12.

ThomasOK has earlier in one of his writes here mentioned Tony Tune-age.
◾ Now comes text and image links,which shows when ThomasOK performs this modification on Tony Tune-age LP12.
This is to get to grips with this "LP12-Radikal Problem",..which this thread is all about.

After looking at the pictures,you can probably perform this modification yourself,...or show this to your traders,so know them how they should....
◾ 1. Check this problem.
◾ 2. Perform the modification.

Then,there is no longer a trader,who can claim that this is a rare problem.

-----???????????? Tony Tone-age LP12 mod ????????????----

I have been reading various comments regarding the possibility of a Radikal motor being in physical contact with one of the Trampolin feet on LP12's with 64mm high plinths, and how this situation could have a negative impact on sonic performance. So needless to say, I decided to have my deck checked out by ThomasOk.

Although my plinth is 65mm tall, there was still a possibility of the motor being in direct contact with the back left Trampolin foot (when facing the deck)...???????????????? 
Picture1❗  https://i.imgur.com/f2Wg2Dh.jpg

-------------------------????????????????----------------------

So, in order to know if the two parts were touching, ThomasOk placed a narrow strip of paper between the motor and foot, then fed it through the Trampolin opening as shown below.--------------???????????????? 
Picture 2❗  https://i.imgur.com/7Ll5mks.jpg

-----------------------????????????????------------------------

Thomas attached the Trampolin back onto the plinth,and put the LP12 on the table,standing on the Trampolin2 feets.And then gently pulled the strip of paper through the opening. There was some initial resistance, which confirmed contact between the two parts. So, he put strips of balsa wood along the inside perimeter of the Trampolin as shown below..........???????????????? 
Picture 3 ❗  https://i.imgur.com/HLlK0bd.jpg

Picture 4 ❗   https://i.imgur.com/QRK8T8T.jpg

Picture 5 ❗  https://i.imgur.com/Ujb384W.jpg

--------------------------????????????????-------------------------

When he was finished with the wood strips, ThomasOk attached the Trampolin back onto the plinth..............???????????????? 
Picture 6 ❗  https://i.imgur.com/66jJadJ.jpg

Picture 7 ❗  https://i.imgur.com/ZCajE8Z.jpg

-------------------------????????????????------------------------

After completely assembling the deck, ThomasOk played an album to make sure everything was operating correctly. My first impression was an improvement on vocals, but really couldn't be sure. Primarily because my deck was hooked-up to his bench system, which isn't that elaborate.

However, once the deck was in my home system, it became much easier to hear any differences that might exist. And while the differences I heard weren't subtle, they weren't overwhelmingly obvious either. But that said, the differences I heard were for the better, and very important! The vocals were in fact better (i.e., more realistic and natural sounding), and the timing was vastly improved as well. It wasn't until I was listening to the new Jimi Hendrix album "Both Sides of the Sky," that I noticed how deep and defined the bass notes were.

While my deck certainly sounded good before this necessary modification, I know exactly how much the Radikal motor touching the Trampolin foot degraded the sound. And needless to say, it surprises me that nobody noticed this particular design flaw until recently. Moving forward, perhaps the Linn plinths will be made taller (i.e., 66.5mm). In addition, it will be interesting to see if Linn takes this issue seriously and finds a fair solution for customers that have this problem.

◾ So, what is the bottom line? My deck sounds better than it has ever sounded, and it's unfortunate that some Sondek owners might not be experiencing the true potential of their deck. It is a krazy world indeed!
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???? ThomasOK’s conclusions…..

This was an interesting LP12 for me as it is helping to narrow things down. It has a 65mm plinth, maybe even just a hair above it, which is probably the most common size. I did the paper strip test and found that there was some resistance to the pull but less than any other LP12 I had done that had any resistance. The Khan top plate might have had an effect on this as it might make the motor sit just the slightest bit higher, but I'm not sure. On this table I was able to pull the paper out but there was just a bit of grab, most others you couldn't pull out the paper without risk of ripping it. There was just the slightest bit of contact but there was still contact. I let Tony know that there might be little or no difference but since he lives a few hours away he didn't want to take the chance and asked that I do it. I did the mod as shown in the photos above and checked suspension, tracking and anti-skating. Everything was fine as I had already done the counterweight adjustment on this table and all sounded good. No changes except the mod. As you can see from the report above even relieving this small amount of contact had the same kind of improvements we have heard in the other LP12s that have been fixed.

???? All said it does appear that any contact at all is a bad thing and should be rectified.
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Now you have a little homework on your LP12, if you have Radikal, Trampolin2 or/and Urika.

/Peder????

Hello again ???????? 

Now have this IMPORTANT INFORMATION,about this BIG LP12-Radikal-Problem been out here for a while.

The two big,best at LP12-Setup here in Sweden....Karl and Fredrik,as I presented earlier in this thread.
◾Now 70% of the LP12 that they have controlled here in Sweden have had this problem,..that the engine takes in the Trampolin2 foot.

◾Tomas O'Keefe,..(ThomasOK on forums)..that reported a lot in this thread.
There,all of his controlled LP12 had this problem.

My question now is,..You who have already managed to control your LP12,if you have Radikal, Urika, Trampolin2....how did you experience the improved music reproduction.?

Some have already had time to report it in the thread here,but would be fun to hear some more impressions.!

Peder????

Hi,...it was 16 days since last time ????.How do you have it in this warm holiday-times,..far too hot summer weather,and all the outdoor music festivals to catch up to visit.
Ask,..for myself,I have felt almost a bit "mind dull" during these hot summer weeks.

It is perhaps therefore no one has written about any listening-impressions here (which I called for in my last post),..after you checked your LP12,and in case of errors carried out the modification.

We may have to wait until the end of August, when usually listen to music take off again ????.

Thomas O'Keefe (ThomasOK on forums),has heard from him and he comes soon with some upgraded information.
That information is added as usual in here,Karl (High Fidelity,Stockholm),also had some thoughts about this great LP12 Problem.

I'll come back as I said about this,but have you had time to "repair" your LP12....please write about it,it would be interesting to take note of.

Nice continuation of the hot summer....

/Peder????

Hello Peder,

Tray 2391 gr, vinyl beyond 140gr, with a band height 1mm/1,5mm music becomes appreciably more free and more open.

Peder posted:

Hi,...it was 16 days since last time ????.How do you have it in this warm holiday-times,..far too hot summer weather,and all the outdoor music festivals to catch up to visit.
Ask,..for myself,I have felt almost a bit "mind dull" during these hot summer weeks.

It is perhaps therefore no one has written about any listening-impressions here (which I called for in my last post),..after you checked your LP12,and in case of errors carried out the modification.

We may have to wait until the end of August, when usually listen to music take off again ????.

Hi Peder, I find my LP12 sounds its best on these warm summer evenings

C.

I ended up rebuilding my clean stack last week, on one of the cooler days. I'd done the ps stack a few weeks earlier and taken up at least a quater turn on the Fraim bolts so knew it was due. It really wasn't the weather for it though, even keeping a towel handy to forestall dripping onto the system. Best leave any fettling until it cools down a bit unless you have aircon.

yeti42 posted:

It really wasn't the weather for it though, even keeping a towel handy to forestall dripping onto the system. Best leave any fettling until it cools down a bit unless you have aircon.

I agree and understand you ????????.
Has myself had between 30-34 degrees C indoors in the last weeks......28-29 degrees at night.
Then it is not fun to screw in the music system, you dryers do not even cook food????.

That's why I wrote the end of August.....

Peder????

I mentioned the screw problem to my dealer, he is aware of the problem which he mentioned to Linn and they rotated the screw.

Easy way to check if the screw is touching the motor, no paper strips required or fiddling around. Tap the top plate on the corner near the motor if it rings then no problem. Dealer assured mine was fine, no paranoia

Hello IRON

No worries of paranoia . Screw not responsible, it is the membrane rubber which tangent sometimes with the lower edge of the engine.

Hi Peder, thanks for turning my attention to this issue. My LP12 seems to be one with the issue???? I have not done the paper test but instead I put some pieces of MDF board in the corner making the feet hang free and the result was encouraging enough for me to try an temporary fix. What I have done is to remove the adjustable part of the foot under the motor and put a 15mm metal cone on a thin rubber mat just next to original position. It certainly make a difference and relatively simple to do without the need to travel to my dealer.

Next step will be to talk to my dealer about a more permanent solution!

Considering the cost of the LP12 and the huge profit margins that Linn are reaping, they ought to do a product recall .... or at least announce that all LP12 owners should get their decks checked out and if affected, a few modification/replacement free of charge.

I can’t think of any other product (let alone hifi), where it is necessary to do your own DIY tweaks to make it work properly.

Manufacturing defects need to be addressed by the manufacturer, not the consumer.

.... can you imagine Naim kit requiring owners to change screws and shave bits off the case work to make it work correctly? ????

Glad I bought the Rega RP10 and don’t need to take a hacksaw and drill to it

Well lets see I had an LP12 ARO ,Troika ,Aro matic arm lift etc the Art Arm rest is metal so metal to metal contact so I installed a silicone tube over arm rest to address this poor engineering oversight ,but the arm lift was the most pathetic piece of design I ever wasted money on so I removed it and made my own .Naim has had its share of design disasters Mr Frog as has Rega no one is 100% error free ???????????

An arm rest doesn’t have anything to do with sound quality.

The design ‘flaw’ in the LP12 does impact on the sound in a detrimental way.

I suggest you think that through ..........metal to metal contact of arm tube against arm rest ...........bad idea and one that will induce fatigue over time of the Arm  tube and prove detrimental to sound if left unattended .I am sure most ARO owners have addressed this design flaw in one way or another .The ARO-Matic was a design that DID affect the sound of the table as it was a connection between the suspended arm board and the plinth .This design was school boy level and an insult to the aesthetics of the LP12 TBH .The arm lift I used was built from parts of a Technics TT lift and a damped fluid shaft which circumvented the arm board plinth connection as it mounted directly to the arm board once completed it was pleasing to the eye and sounded MUCH better.

The Tiger Paw Elevator also bolted only to the arm board but to the detriment of the sound and your home made one is likely to too, better to learn to cue without such crutches though I’ll admit this might not work for left handers. The effect is a raising of the noise floor with the lift in place.

I think Naim would be the first to come forward and declare that the Aromatic was not very good.  That's what happens I guess when you're are asked to do something that you're really reluctant to do - the design of the Aro hinged on stripping away all that was unnecessary, so any lift/lower device was bound to impact on performance.  But a number of people told them that they couldn't sell the Aro without it, so... 

I remember the cupboard hidden away at the back of the factory full of completed Aromatics in their boxes.  I don't know what happened to them but I imagine they all went off to scrap eventually.

yeti42 posted:

The Tiger Paw Elevator also bolted only to the arm board but to the detriment of the sound and your home made one is likely to too, better to learn to cue without such crutches though I’ll admit this might not work for left handers. The effect is a raising of the noise floor with the lift in place.

Hi Yeti42,

I just had a look at the Tiger Paw Elevator it looks nicely machined and what would be acceptable in this century ,I'm not sure of the overall weight of this TP Elevator, also now you explain that it is bolted to the armboard that is not my favoured method of fixing the lift device .

The home brew arm lift was by necessity very light with a small footprint and secured via a very strong doubled sided tape ,the result no hole in the arm board and a small amount of decoupling from the arm board ,You have to remember this was back in 1991-92 so a long time ago but the sound was not affected with the home brew lift to any discernible level but it definitely was with the Aromatic.

Apart from that issue I enjoyed the ARO arm until the system was stolen by low life over New Years eve early New Years Day 3 years later. So if anyone see's an LP12 with ARO arm and a unusual looking arm lift ..................?

Richard Dane posted:

I think Naim would be the first to come forward and declare that the Aromatic was not very good.  That's what happens I guess when you're are asked to do something that you're really reluctant to do - the design of the Aro hinged on stripping away all that was unnecessary, so any lift/lower device was bound to impact on performance.  But a number of people told them that they couldn't sell the Aro without it, so... 

I remember the cupboard hidden away at the back of the factory full of completed Aromatics in their boxes.  I don't know what happened to them but I imagine they all went off to scrap eventually.

Hi Richard,

I was not aware that was the reasoning behind the Aromatic's introduction ,thanks for the info .

yeti42 posted:

The Tiger Paw Elevator also bolted only to the arm board but to the detriment of the sound and your home made one is likely to too, better to learn to cue without such crutches though I’ll admit this might not work for left handers. The effect is a raising of the noise floor with the lift in place.

I was told the elevator might adversely affect sound quality, but I thought I'd try it - not for plonking stylus on record but for lifting off at the end of the side, and as a pause device. Answer - in my system, absolutely no effect on sound , adverse or otherwise.

I am bemused by this thread. If one has a competent dealer who can fettle LP12s, surely there is no issue. The only message I take away from this is not to fit upgrades oneself, which was  a tenet I already held true. If you have a problem with the deck, or you're worried, take it back to  said competent dealer for inspcetiona and resolution ( in both senses of the word!).

Loki i guess your conclusion probably will solve 99% of all questions/post on this forum, ask your competent dealer. But for me in this case my dealer has not informed me that he installed this stuff that might have an issue, so I  am happy this thread appeared on the forum.