You are happy with both your high quality Digital front end and your Record Player. How much do you use the latter?

Loudness War so not over. I have posted the first two albums I searched for! DR4 is about as bad as it gets, by the way. These values are more or less the same as Vapor Trails by Rush, which is one of the most infamous victims of loudness.

Maybe one thing to bear in mind, it takes around an hour of playing for a turntable to come fully on song, 20 minutes does it for my DAC and it was about the same for thr CDX2. If you start a vinyl session it’s best to keep going with it.

yeti42 posted:

Maybe one thing to bear in mind, it takes around an hour of playing for a turntable to come fully on song

I'm not buying that for a second. Are you one that keeps an incandescent light over your cart to keep it warm?

yeti42 posted:

Maybe one thing to bear in mind, it takes around an hour of playing for a turntable to come fully on song, 20 minutes does it for my DAC and it was about the same for thr CDX2. If you start a vinyl session it’s best to keep going with it.

Why not leave it running (spinning) then? Keep the bearing, motor and any electronics at stable operating temperature, ready for use, just like many do with the other electronics in their systems? Alternatively put any old disk on but with sound turned diwn for an hour or so before wanting to listen...

before listening to an lp, i put it spinning while listening to my streamer.  The cartridge is running but without signal.

French Rooster posted:

before listening to an lp, i put it spinning while listening to my streamer.  The cartridge is running but without signal.

The cartridge is not doing anything except when the stylus is in contact with a moving groove - turning on the TT will have absolutely no effect on it, no current will flow through its coils, so the cartridge is not ‘running’ at all. However if spinning the bearing and motor obviously are.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

before listening to an lp, i put it spinning while listening to my streamer.  The cartridge is running but without signal.

The cartridge is not doing anything except when the stylus is in contact with a moving groove - turning on the TT will have absolutely no effect on it, no current will flow through its coils, so the cartridge is not ‘running’ at all. However if spinning the bearing and motor obviously are.

i didn’t know, i thought that the cart running on the lp, even without signal, had an impact on cart temperature....

So you mean you are playing the LP but are not actually listening to it. I think the confusion by IB here is that it sounded like the platter was spinning but the arm was still in the armrest hence IB's comment.

kevin J Carden posted:

Hmack posted:

 

My use of CDs for anything other than immediately ripping to my NAS will remain at 0%, and my vinyl purchases (apart from the very rare 'audiophile' LP) will be almost exclusively from the second hand market. I have found that very few modern pressings can match the best older pressings once the LPs are properly cleaned.     

Ah yes, I hadn’t yet budgeted for a record cleaning machine. Add to list...

 

Yes Kevin, 

I would consider that a record cleaning machine is pretty much a pre-requisite if you want to play LPs through a decent system.

However, you don't have to pay a lot of money for one that works really well. In the past couple of days I have taken delivery of a Project VC-S Mk II (as recommended by Richard Dane in one of his recent posts) to replace my Keith Monks Discovery RCM. It's not as much fun to use as the very quirky KM, and maybe not quite as effective, but it's very much cheaper, works nearly as well, and after all that really is what matters. 

The actual wet cleaning process is pretty much identical for most machines other than the very most expensive models. It is mostly dependant on the cleaning fluid and brush that you use, although the process is a little more convenient on the KM machines which use a 'manual' pump to apply the cleaning fluid. The most important attribute of most RCMs is their effectiveness in respect of the suction of cleaning fluid fluid containing the dust and contaminants on the record. I feel that this process is slightly more effective on machines that use a tracking suction arm (such as the KM or Loricraft) than those such as the Project, Moth, Oki Noki etc which use a static wand. However, the difference is small, and I am very happy with the Project VC-S and the money I have saved by not going for a replacement KM or similar device.

The main problem I have found over the years with the KM (and which might also affect the Loricraft) is that the lengthy thin plastic tubing through which the contaminated fluid is collected clogs up far too easily, dramatically reducing suction power. I have managed to recover from this on a couple of occasions by successfully using compressed air to clear the tubing, but on this occasion it has beaten me. I really can't be bothered spending time and effort dismantling the machine to check whether my  problem this time round is the tubing or the vacuum pump, so the KM has to go.      

Of course, there are other even better options out there if you have big pockets. Machines such as the Audio Desk or Klaudio Ultrasonic cleaners are potentially even more effective, but cost in the region of £4k to £5k as opposed to around £1,700 or £1,300 for the cheapest KMs or Loricrafts respectively. The Project by contrast costs just over £300, so the difference in price of the various options is huge.

If money was no object, I would go with one of the more expensive machines, but the Project now works well enough for me and will make a huge difference to the sound of the occasional LP I pick up at a charity shop or specialist used record shop. Very well worth the money.   

Finally, for me a record deck is a lovely thing to have and to use. As someone who was brought up in an era where the only alternative was the pre-recorded cassette tape, and which for me was never a valid alternative, there is no doubt an element of nostalgia in my continued use of a record deck. I also have a reconditioned Pioneer RT-909 reel to reel deck that sounds pretty good, but which only sees occasional use and is there almost entirely out of nostalgia and the fact that it satisfies a desire I had for one of these at a time when I simply couldn't begin to afford it.

So, I enjoy using my record deck (I suspect you will too if you go ahead), and to my ears it sounds wonderful with the best vinyl. At times I could believe that it sounds just about as good as my Klimax DS/1. However, it could never replace digital streaming for me, which from a convenience perspective was a revelation as soon as I moved away from direct CD replay to my first streamer (the ND5XS). Subsequent DAC and streamer upgrades have cemented my view that much as I love my record deck and vinyl, digital streaming (from CDs ripped to my NAS) will always remain my main source.  

james n posted:

So you mean you are playing the LP but are not actually listening to it. I think the confusion by IB here is that it sounded like the platter was spinning but the arm was still in the armrest hence IB's comment.

the lp is playing but my pre is on cd imput....listening in this time to my streamer.

Hmack,

I have also bought the Project VC-S. It visually cleans a record better than new and totally eliminates static. However, I am finding it also increases surface noise after cleaning. Any thoughts?

Stu

I bought a Keith Monks record cleaner in the early 80’s used it for many years only complaints noisy and weak suction. Moved on to a VPI 16.5 noisy but more efficient suction and much cheaper excellent machine.

 Regards,

Martin

stuart.ashen posted:

Hmack,

I have also bought the Project VC-S. It visually cleans a record better than new and totally eliminates static. However, I am finding it also increases surface noise after cleaning. Any thoughts?

Stu

HI Stu,

Certainly not something I have noticed so far, but then I have only cleaned a few records so far. These have been records purchased from charity shops and I wouldn't play dream of playing them without cleaning them first, so I have no reference point.

Over the next few days I will get around to re-cleaning a few of my own LPs, so I will have a chance to check this out.

I am assuming that you are using the cleaning fluid that comes with the VC-S. What sort of dilution are you using, and I take it that you are using either distilled or de-ionised water to dilute the fluid? 

joerand posted:

yeti42 posted:

Maybe one thing to bear in mind, it takes around an hour of playing for a turntable to come fully on song

I'm not buying that for a second. Are you one that keeps an incandescent light over your cart to keep it warm?

If you can't hear any difference you have no need to worry about it, I do hear the bass firming up and the musical interplay improving, though it's not bad to start with, most improvement is over the first 20 minutes but there's still more to come up to an hour or so. Leaving the platter spinning keeps the bearing up to temp but the cartridge and superline are still idling and they seem to play a part too though having a warm bearing starts things off higher up the curve. I don't have a lamp hanging over the cartridge though there are two LED lit globes on the wall above.

I tried leaving the platter spinning or rather I often forget to turn it off when I give up for the evening. A year of this on the tape drive Artemis and the splice gave way, fortuneately I had a spare loop handy but it prompted me to buy a reel of 1/4" tape and some splicing tape, I'm never going to run out of belts in my lifetime.

The Schröder arm is a right sod to get right but is very rewarding when you do, it took me months to get to where I am now but you never know what is still to come until you find it. There's a sense of achievement when you set up your own deck and it's singing nicely which to me is part of the vinyl appeal.

It will be interesting to hear what the ND555 can do in comparison. (I'm not buying a Dave, it would remide me of Cameron and his brexit fiasco every time I listen to it).

Stu,

that's an odd one and, as a happy VC-S user, I'd echo the last paragraph of Hmack's post above; are you using the best quality distilled/de-ionised water when you dilute the wash-it fluid? I get it via mail order - I think it's stuff sold for medical use and is supposedly as pure as practicable for these purposes.  I dilute the Wash-it fluid by 10:1. Results are excellent.  Also you must keep the brush and felt pads clean and uncontaminated.  Don't be tempted to run the brush under the tap at the end of a cleaning session - instant contamination! Let it dry off naturally and don't let the bristles touch anything. I keep a small little brush handy (it came with a velvet pad record cleaner of some kind many years ago) and use it to brush down the pads and the main cleaning brush for time to time. Always think about how the cleaning surfaces might get contaminated.  Oh yes, and if in doubt, it's better to use more fluid than you think you should, rather than less, and make sure ALL of the fluid is vacuumed up before finishing the clean.

I recall once making up some cleaning fluid for my old Nitty Gritty using just some regular de-ionised water that I bought cheap from somewhere (petrol station or supermarket, I forget which) and while everything looked clean, groove noise was increased alarmingly. I didn't realise that there were varying qualities - a lesson learned. 

yeti42 posted:

It will be interesting to hear what the ND555 can do in comparison. (I'm not buying a Dave, it would remide me of Cameron and his brexit fiasco every time I listen to it).

.?????? 

Because the DAC, name, DAVE,  reminds you of David Cameron? Is he ever called Dave? Do you know no nicd Daves? Why would you wven think of the name of the DAC when you play - do you think about the Queen whenever you play your Rega?

I’ve no idea how ND555 will sound, but if you seriously want to find out how well digital can do and challenge your analog commitment you should try Dave -perhaps this is your real aversion...   With the Innuos Zenith SE being talked of on another thread it is about the same cost as ND555 without PS, and includes the music store, so good value to boot.

mytech manhattan 2 dac has a good press and very positive reviews.  An alternative to Dave, with network card option, and mqa capable.  Some here use mytech dacs......

But i have not yet heard these dacs.  Plan to hear the dave in next weeks.

yeti42 posted:

Maybe one thing to bear in mind, it takes around an hour of playing for a turntable to come fully on song, 20 minutes does it for my DAC and it was about the same for thr CDX2. If you start a vinyl session it’s best to keep going with it.

Absolutely.

The bottom line seems to be that some of us get the sound of vinyl, and some do not. The recent 'Laurel/Yanny' sound-test doing the rounds on social media is further proof that we seem (as individuals) to perceive and mentally process sound quite differently.

Even if the ND555 improves on the NDS (and I'm sure it does); it still won't sound like vinyl replay.

John.

Richard and Hmack,

thank you for your replies. I am using deionised water but suspect this might be the culprit as it is from the motoring section in Asda! I will order some of the real stuff online as advised!

Otherwise, used as per instructions with the same 1 to 10 ratio.  No tap water has come anywhere need the machine or brushes. Looks like I need to bring my OCD on this one....

Thanks again,

Stu

Stu, when you get your ultra pure water I would use it first to thoroughly rinse anything that has been thus far contaminated with the supermarket stuff.  As such, you should order a fair bit more than you think you need...

It's useful to get a small-ish bottle with a sealable squeeze top or similar to make applying the fluid to the Lps somewhat easier.  I had an old 6 fl oz Discwasher D4 bottle that i thoroughly cleaned out with distilled water and use for applying the diluted Wash-it fluid to the LP surface.  I'm sure you can find something similar.  At a pinch you can use the empty Wash-it fluid bottle, but the top isn't ideal and you must be sure you don't get confused thinking it's concentrate, or vice versa!

J.N. posted:

yeti42 posted:

Maybe one thing to bear in mind, it takes around an hour of playing for a turntable to come fully on song, 20 minutes does it for my DAC and it was about the same for thr CDX2. If you start a vinyl session it’s best to keep going with it.

Absolutely.

The bottom line seems to be that some of us get the sound of vinyl, and some do not. The recent 'Laurel/Yanny' sound-test doing the rounds on social media is further proof that we seem (as individuals) to perceive and mentally process sound quite differently.

Even if the ND555 improves on the NDS (and I'm sure it does); it still won't sound like vinyl replay.

John.

While some of us get the sound of digital when it is done well, and some do not.

As for sounding like vinyl replay, why should it?

each to their own preference of course, for that is what it is.

"As for sounding like vinyl replay, why should it?"

IB - That's my point - it should not (is not). Some people have made the assertion that the ND555 might be as good as vinyl.

Digital and vinyl replay are different kettles of fish - both potentially musically enjoyable - for me too.

John.

J.N. posted:

"As for sounding like vinyl replay, why should it?"

IB - That's my point - it should not (is not). Some people have made the assertion that the ND555 might be as good as vinyl.

Digital and vinyl replay are different kettles of fish - both potentially musically enjoyable - for me too.

John.

Indeed, and it could “be as good as”  - and of course does not automatically mean “sound the same as” - while it may sound better than! (Whether for some or all people, some or all music etc...) 

Stu,

I can't remember when or where I bought my current supply of de-ionised water. In fact it's entirely possible that I too bought it from a supermarket or well known home improvement store, but it certainly hasn't resulted in any audible surface noise problems for me.

I am currently listening to a 1981 LP ("Something in the Night") by 'Pure Prairie League' from a batch of LPS I purchased a number of months ago from a charity shop but hadn't played up until today because of problems with my Keith Monks RCM. I have just cleaned it using the Project VC-s and it sounds just great with practically no surface noise whatsoever.  

I have been using a roughly 1:10 dilution of the Project cleaning solution which seems fine, but I also have an unopened bottle of L'ART du SON' which I had purchased for use with my KM. At some stage I will get around to comparing the two. 

 Cheers Richard, will take your advice. Medical grade water ordered.

That is interesting Hmack, but the noise is there so time for some serious OCD on the record cleaning front.

Apologies for the thread diversion to the OP, but it’s all part of the vinyl vs digital debate I guess.

Stu