You are happy with both your high quality Digital front end and your Record Player. How much do you use the latter?

i am using isopropyl alcohol, dilluated with 30% tap water , since 20 years.  with nonwoven compresses.  my lps are in mint condition, with quite no surface noise at all, or very rarely. I buy always mint or near mint copies at discogs.  

Innocent Bystander posted:

yeti42 posted:

It will be interesting to hear what the ND555 can do in comparison. (I'm not buying a Dave, it would remide me of Cameron and his brexit fiasco every time I listen to it).

.?????? 

Because the DAC, name, DAVE,  reminds you of David Cameron? Is he ever called Dave? Do you know no nicd Daves? Why would you wven think of the name of the DAC when you play - do you think about the Queen whenever you play your Rega?

I’ve no idea how ND555 will sound, but if you seriously want to find out how well digital can do and challenge your analog commitment you should try Dave -perhaps this is your real aversion...   With the Innuos Zenith SE being talked of on another thread it is about the same cost as ND555 without PS, and includes the music store, so good value to boot.

French Rooster posted:

mytech manhattan 2 dac has a good press and very positive reviews.  An alternative to Dave, with network card option, and mqa capable.  Some here use mytech dacs......

But i have not yet heard these dacs.  Plan to hear the dave in next weeks.

French R, if you are going for an audio, please ask the dealer for a demo of Blu2 with Dave.

Dave alone just doesn't as accomplished as it does with the matching upscaler.

analogmusic posted:

French Rooster posted:

mytech manhattan 2 dac has a good press and very positive reviews.  An alternative to Dave, with network card option, and mqa capable.  Some here use mytech dacs......

But i have not yet heard these dacs.  Plan to hear the dave in next weeks.

French R, if you are going for an audio, please ask the dealer for a demo of Blu2 with Dave.

Dave alone just doesn't as accomplished as it does with the matching upscaler.

 

Whilst that may be true (I haven’t heard), it is denigrating how extremely good Dave is. And if you haven’t heard Hugo, even that is worth hearing as for many people its naturalness of presentation represented the turning point in the balance between between analog and digital, the latter ceasing to be second place. I would happily have continued with my old Hugo if Dave hadn’t been affordable, even after hearing Dave, just aware that even the extremely good and very natural sound quality of Hugo could be bettered with the stunning clarity that Dave brings.

Just as many people with NDS struggle to understand how ND555 could improve on it, and expect its sound to be a relatively minor step up, so that is my expectation of Blu2 on top of Dave, whereas Dave compared to Chord’s best before it, Hugo TT, for me was a real wow moment, as I have described on here previously.

So yes, take the opportunity to hear Blu2, but don’t let Analogmusic’s enthusiasm for it be any suggestion that Dave is less than fantastic sounding.

J.N. posted:

"As for sounding like vinyl replay, why should it?"

IB - That's my point - it should not (is not). Some people have made the assertion that the ND555 might be as good as vinyl.

Digital and vinyl replay are different kettles of fish - both potentially musically enjoyable - for me too.

John.

Quite so John. Many of us are very happy to get equal enjoyment from both vinyl and digital, and it really is futile to argue for the dominance of one over the other. I've no doubt that for folk whose replay arrangements for either source aren't matched in quality, then they may well, justifiably, ditch one for the other. Us old vinyl users are certainly put off by the apparent complexities of digital, computer-based (or whatever you want to call it - non-CD digital perhaps) audio, but the latter has improved so much over the years that it deserves at least equal status in the quality stakes to the best vinyl replay. But it sure sounds different!

It will be interesting to see where we are with digital technology in the future will the best Dacs now be like smartphone technology at the moment but in 20 years pretty redundant.I am not saying they don't sound amazing,I am sure they do and it's encouraging how digital is continually improving but vinyl technology will stay pretty much as it is now.I enjoy both formats and as Tony M wisely says they just sound difearant but i do like the hands on experience of using vinyl and the album cover art work.If both formats integrate nicely in your system that's all that matters.Just a mid spec lp12 - Technics SL 1210 and a Nagra CDP here....nothing really high end but hugely listenable to my ears

Tabby cat posted:

...and a Nagra CDP here....nothing really high end...

<<cough>>

(very nice, TC)

Tabby cat posted:

It will be interesting to see where we are with digital technology in the future will the best Dacs now be like smartphone technology at the moment but in 20 years pretty redundant.I am not saying they don't sound amazing,I am sure they do and it's encouraging how digital is continually improving but vinyl technology will stay pretty much as it is now.I enjoy both formats and as Tony M wisely says they just sound difearant but i do like the hands on experience of using vinyl and the album cover art work.If both formats integrate nicely in your system that's all that matters.Just a mid spec lp12 - Technics SL 1210 and a Nagra CDP here....nothing really high end but hugely listenable to my ears

Interestingly, though, despite its incredible age vinyl technology is still changing, albeit perhaps in ever-decreasing amounts, with new TTs coming to the fore from time to time, and occasional refinements still even of the LP12 - and of course Linn’s latest for improving the output from vinyl, a digital stage to more accuratly apply the RIAA compensation.

Meanwhile digital is much younger, and with forever improving digital processing capability and storage capacity it seems highly likely that developments will continue apace  However as it approaches perfection, taking that to be an analog audio signal stream output indistinguishable from the audio signal stream the mastering engineers recorded (not that that can ever be compared other than with live recordings), my prediction is that the core technological improvements over time are likely to result in lower prices for the same sound quality, until maybe one day you’ll be able to get Dave+Blu2 sound quality for the cost of Hugo. And that has to be good.

analogmusic posted:

French Rooster posted:

mytech manhattan 2 dac has a good press and very positive reviews.  An alternative to Dave, with network card option, and mqa capable.  Some here use mytech dacs......

But i have not yet heard these dacs.  Plan to hear the dave in next weeks.

French R, if you are going for an audio, please ask the dealer for a demo of Blu2 with Dave.

Dave alone just doesn't as accomplished as it does with the matching upscaler.

 

i am just curious to hear it. The dealer has no blue 2 .   

Innocent Bystander posted:

Tabby cat posted:

It will be interesting to see where we are with digital technology in the future will the best Dacs now be like smartphone technology at the moment but in 20 years pretty redundant.I am not saying they don't sound amazing,I am sure they do and it's encouraging how digital is continually improving but vinyl technology will stay pretty much as it is now.I enjoy both formats and as Tony M wisely says they just sound difearant but i do like the hands on experience of using vinyl and the album cover art work.If both formats integrate nicely in your system that's all that matters.Just a mid spec lp12 - Technics SL 1210 and a Nagra CDP here....nothing really high end but hugely listenable to my ears

Interestingly, though, despite its incredible age vinyl technology is still changing, albeit perhaps in ever-decreasing amounts, with new TTs coming to the fore from time to time, and occasional refinements still even of the LP12 - and of course Linn’s latest for improving the output from vinyl, a digital stage to more accuratly apply the RIAA compensation.

Meanwhile digital is much younger, and with forever improving digital processing capability and storage capacity it seems highly likely that developments will continue apace  However as it approaches perfection, taking that to be an analog audio signal stream output indistinguishable from the audio signal stream the mastering engineers recorded (not that that can ever be compared other than with live recordings), my prediction is that the core technological improvements over time are likely to result in lower prices for the same sound quality, until maybe one day you’ll be able to get Dave+Blu2 sound quality for the cost of Hugo. And that has to be good.

Given the improved DSP now becoming available it should be a relatively simple task to pretty accurately emulate the "vinyl sound" but, apart from a few scattered examples,  it's never been the aim of digital hi-fi to copy vinyl, neither should it be. Much of the enjoyment I derive from my own record collection comes from the quality of the old recordings, with the music I enjoy most. Unfortunately, too many modern recordings, or remasters of the older material, are inferior, be it digital or vinyl.

A quick update to Richard and Hmack,

the medical grade water arrived today (they must have thought it was an emergency!). Anyway, much better results with the VC-S Mk2 and I am now very pleased with it. Thank you!

Stu

That's great news Stu.  And, wow, that was impressively quick delivery!

tonym posted:

.. Unfortunately, too many modern recordings, or remasters of the older material, are inferior, be it digital or vinyl.

Tony that is probably because, as I have said a few times, contemporary 'vinyl' replay is digital - and the phono equipment effectively provides an electro mechanical reconstruction of the digital signal.... I am not sure why some people don't understand that  phono replay of modern vinyl is digital.. its not a case of 'digital' or 'vinyl' in the general sense as that makes no technical sense whatsoever. The choice is whether you prefer pure electronic digital reconstruction of a particular device  compared to the  combined electronic/mechanical/electrical digital reconstruction for modern vinyl media replay on a turn table.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

tonym posted:

.. Unfortunately, too many modern recordings, or remasters of the older material, are inferior, be it digital or vinyl.

Tony that is probably because, as I have said a few times, contemporary 'vinyl' replay is digital - and the phono equipment effectively provides an electro mechanical reconstruction of the digital signal.... I am not sure why some people don't understand that  phono replay of modern vinyl is digital.. its not a case of 'digital' or 'vinyl' in the general sense as that makes no technical sense whatsoever. The choice is whether you prefer pure electronic digital reconstruction of a particular device  compared to the  combined electronic/mechanical/electrical digital reconstruction for modern vinyl media replay on a turn table.

 

Though the underlying problem in terms of quality is not actually that they were recorded digitally, but  that no attention was paid to achieving a decent quality of sound, whatever the reason -   so-called “loudness war”. mixed primarily to sound good iPod generation, or any other reason.

Innocent Bystander posted:

.... so-called “loudness war”. mixed primarily to sound good iPod generation, or any other reason.

Although one needs to be careful of stereotypes (!) and generalisations ... the so called loudness wars took place many years ago - late nineties and early 2000s was supposedly its peak from an article I read.. it was an era that still relied on mass analogue distribution or basic digital distribution/replay... nowadays with the advent of multiple diverse channels, more advanced playback networks and greater standardisation, loudness normalisation is more the norm - and in some distribution networks these is governed by standardisation. Therefore now if a music file is compressed and limited to extreme in a true late 90s style it will probably sound meagre and flat compared to a more modern dynamic track... so the current iPod generation is more expecting of dynamic music (less artificial overall compression and limiting) - I suspect the loudness war files of yesteryear would just not cut it now - and indeed its not hard to determine this for yourself by comparing many modern tracks with 'similar grade' pop music of the lates 90s.

If the Loudness War is over then Loudness won.

Probably the most extreme example was Death Magnetic (2008) which was DR3. The latest Arctic Monkeys effort is also their most compressed at DR5. Not much progress, but vinyl masters are frequently not as “hot”.

There are many processes a recording goes through before we hear it and so many opportunities to screw things up. Therefore, the fact that most music is recorded digitally misses the point and I think this means there is no definitive best source. Sometimes digital is better and sometimes not. If you have a streamer and a record player you can cover both bases. Superior mastering often swings it for vinyl. 

 Oh, but then there’s surface noise 

I visited a friend tonight for a drink with my wife and his GF.   We started with Negroni cocktails.

Then he began to pull out the Amaro additives to show off.  I had never had anything of the kind.   Vermouth flavored with bitters and botanicals.   They were distinctive and complemented the gin drinks well, but I was ready to go home before long, seductive as they were.

This is the way vinyl is at my house.   It is CD's every day.   Streaming every day.  Vinyl to amaze and surprise my friends and family.   The CD555 is the core medium around here.   But the KleosSL-Verdier-Superline-Supercap vinyl setup sounds distinctive for the weekends.

Skip posted:

I visited a friend tonight for a drink with my wife and his GF.   We started with Negroni cocktails.

Then he began to pull out the Amaro additives to show off.  I had never had anything of the kind.   Vermouth flavored with bitters and botanicals.   They were distinctive and complemented the gin drinks well, but I was ready to go home before long, seductive as they were.

This is the way vinyl is at my house.   It is CD's every day.   Streaming every day.  Vinyl to amaze and surprise my friends and family.   The CD555 is the core medium around here.   But the KleosSL-Verdier-Superline-Supercap vinyl setup sounds distinctive for the weekends.

So, for people with good digital systems not able or wanting the cost and space of a good vinyl system, maybe the solution is a DSP box: For everyday listening it can be switched out, but to titillate and amaze switched it in and tweak the signal to emphasise/ exaggerate parts and de-emphasise others. You can play to your heart’s content and save particular settings that sound sefuctive .And when you tire of it you go back to  normal...   However, in doing that you may well find sound shapes that improve poor recordings that you switch in just when playing those, or you find a sound shape that actually you like more than the natural sound of the system, and decide to keep that setting on for day to day play - DSP:  tweaker paradise!

I am not sure, the attraction of phono and vinyl replay is the electronic/electro-mechanical reconstruction chain... to try and model and replay in real time with minimal artefacts such a reconstruction chain with purely an electronic reconstruction chain is going, I suspect,  to be nigh on impossible with current consumer technology. Fixing reconstruction through filtering algorithms is only part of the story.... DSP can only condition a signal for reconstruction, not perform the reconstruction itself... that requires the electronic DAC and typically it’s sinc function filter, analogue current to voltage converter and analogue electronic filter.

The solution as stated above I feel is having multiple sources to suit mood and music. Digital reconstruction whether through phono replay or purely electronic is a compromise... (and mathematically it can only ever be a compromise in the limit) .. so it’s a case of choosing your poison to suit and enjoying it.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

tonym posted:

.. Unfortunately, too many modern recordings, or remasters of the older material, are inferior, be it digital or vinyl.

Tony that is probably because, as I have said a few times, contemporary 'vinyl' replay is digital - and the phono equipment effectively provides an electro mechanical reconstruction of the digital signal.... I am not sure why some people don't understand that  phono replay of modern vinyl is digital.. its not a case of 'digital' or 'vinyl' in the general sense as that makes no technical sense whatsoever. The choice is whether you prefer pure electronic digital reconstruction of a particular device  compared to the  combined electronic/mechanical/electrical digital reconstruction for modern vinyl media replay on a turn table.

 

Guys,

This has been discussed many times and I’ve also commented that even when the recording comes from a digital original recording the vinyl can still smoke the digital version.   On Every Street and Nothing Lke The Sun come to mind.  

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

 

Guys,

This has been discussed many times and I’ve also commented that even when the recording comes from a digital original recording the vinyl can still smoke the digital version.   On Every Street and Nothing Lke The Sun come to mind.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Whilst ‘smoke’ is not a common audio phrase, that view is your conclusion based on whatever systems you have compared. Others may think differently, as also has been said many times - indeed at the last count the responses on here as a ‘straw poll’ indicate preferences roughly evenly split between digital streaming and vinyl, with CD distinctly down in populatity. Each to their own, and the only decision needed is if or whendeciding whether to invest in one medium when you have the other, or which one to upgrade further, or for people starting from scratch - when their own ears, in a system affordable to them, clearly is the only decider.

Analog Planet Munich show. days 1 to 4 on Youtube.  Many many turntables to see, in company of Michael Fremer.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

tonym posted:

.. Unfortunately, too many modern recordings, or remasters of the older material, are inferior, be it digital or vinyl.

Tony that is probably because, as I have said a few times, contemporary 'vinyl' replay is digital - and the phono equipment effectively provides an electro mechanical reconstruction of the digital signal.... I am not sure why some people don't understand that  phono replay of modern vinyl is digital.. its not a case of 'digital' or 'vinyl' in the general sense as that makes no technical sense whatsoever. The choice is whether you prefer pure electronic digital reconstruction of a particular device  compared to the  combined electronic/mechanical/electrical digital reconstruction for modern vinyl media replay on a turn table.

 

Guys,

This has been discussed many times and I’ve also commented that even when the recording comes from a digital original recording the vinyl can still smoke the digital version.   On Every Street and Nothing Lke The Sun come to mind.  

Regards,

Lindsay

which Vinyl player (LP12, rega etc etc)

Which Digital (ND555, Linn KDS, Chord Dave?)

it's all dependant on which player....

I can't see how we can generalize like this.