You are happy with both your high quality Digital front end and your Record Player. How much do you use the latter?

French Rooster posted:

Innocentbystander, can you update the stats?   turntable first source seems to have more points now.

Ok, here goes. In this case I’ve done differently, to include those who didbpn’t give a numeric indication, but indecated a significant bias towards one ‘mostly’ (last time I only included those who gave a numerical indication, or one could reasonably be assigned)

Two different assessmenrts:

1) Proportions of people citing more that 50% of their listening from one source:

Vinyl: 33%
CD: 10%
Streaming (may include Online as well as own): 33%
All digital (not counting internet radio): 42%

2) Proportions of people apportionong greatest playing time even if not more than 50% (e.g. where more than 2 sources were cited):

Vinyl: 44%
CD: 15%
Streaming (may include Online as well as own): 42%
All digital (not counting internet radio): 58%

Not counred were people who said approx equal vinyl vs one form or another of digital without assigning anything numerical.

Overall the breakdown is roughly evenly split between vinyl and streaming, with CD a lot less popular, but overall digital sources (CD plus streaming) seemingly more played than vinyl.

of course that is just in the sample of people who responded, and it is interesting to note some people express a preference for one vinyl but actually use another more, while others cite preferences according to wither what they are doing, or, in I think a couple of cases, the type of music playing.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocentbystander, can you update the stats?   turntable first source seems to have more points now.

Ok, here goes. In this case I’ve done differently, to include those who didbpn’t give a numeric indication, but indecated a significant bias towards one ‘mostly’ (last time I only included those who gave a numerical indication, or one could reasonably be assigned)

Two different assessmenrts:

1) Proportions of people citing more that 50% of their listening from one source:

Vinyl: 33%
CD: 10%
Streaming (may include Online as well as own): 33%
All digital (not counting internet radio): 42%

 

2) Proportions of people apportionong greatest playing time even if not more than 50% (e.g. where more than 2 sources were cited):

Vinyl: 44%
CD: 15%
Streaming (may include Online as well as own): 42%
All digital (not counting internet radio): 58%

 

Not counred were people who said approx equal vinyl vs one form or another of digital without assigning anything numerical.

Overall the breakdown is roughly evenly split between vinyl and streaming, with CD a lot less popular, but overall digital sources (CD plus streaming) seemingly more played than vinyl.

of course that is just in the sample of people who responded, and it is interesting to note some people express a preference for one vinyl but actually use another more, while others cite preferences according to wither what they are doing, or, in I think a couple of cases, the type of music playing.

 

 

job well done Innocentbystander.   As you said, some people, like me, are listening more to streaming but find that absolute listening pleasure is for vinyl. But the stats can’t show that.

Alba1320 posted:

From something that I posted some time ago on this forum:

"...For me, I wouldn't make use of any data reduced formats (e.g. MP3), so that leaves CD quality or so-called high resolution files.

CD is still the most widely available 'quality' format, whereas hi-res, AFAIK, accounts for a tiny minority of available recordings, and given that the general public have embraced MP3, and the music industry is all about making money, not maximising quality, I can't see hi-res becoming anything other than a minor niche product. That leaves us (me, at least) with CD, and it seems a whole lot simpler just to buy a CD, pop it in a CD player, and press play, rather than make use of CD quality files for a streamer, which would require all of the (ridiculous amount of *) infrastructure necessary to service it, not to mention the time consuming hassle of ripping an existing CD collection!...

*And, in addition to the above, for further clarification, I do not have a home network, nor do I own a smart phone/tablet, so that's more 'bits' that I would need to get, that I do not otherwise require."

 

Since I wrote that, my feelings have not changed: even if Hi-Res has made some inroads, it is, AFAIK, still of relativity minority interest (largely the realm of 'audiophiles'), and is more expensive.

 

I would, therefore, in effect, be going to all the hassle and expense to merely play CDs, which I can do already, simply, and conveniently; One of the few advantages of CD is its convenience, and CD, to me, is more convenient than any kind of computer audio set-up, in my circumstances.

 

Hope that helps clarify things?

Indeed it does, and this not trying to persuade you differently, because very rightly waphat is right is what suits your personal preferences and circumstancez, but just to balance the picture in case you are not fully aware (with apologies if You are, but perhaps not conveyed by your post).

 The reference to mp3 and other ‘data reduced’ format surely is anathema to all serious about the quality of music, at least for anything other than, possibly, mobile use.

One does not actually need a network, or anything complex, to stream one’s own music in the hichest quality. A combined store/player like Uniti Core, Melco or Innuos Zenith can plug straight to a DAC with a single direct cable, no faffing at all, or if preferred some such stores can be connected directly to a player like a Naim ‘streamer’. Some, such as the Core, can even do the ripping if one decides to abandon CD, whether because the streaming beats it in terms of sound quality (which it can, e.g. because it does not have to read from a CD, with risks of mis-reading and associated error correction), or for convenience, including everything in one place if one has other sources of music such as downloaded hi res files, or realising the asset value of CDP after getting streaming. CD players also have mechanical components that wear and need servicing or replacing periodically, while CDs themselves can deteriorate.

And if a choice of streaming device were to require a music store accessible only via a network, the setup can be very simple and streamlined if no other networking is required, and can even be a small silent box that can live with the hifi.

Alba1320 posted:

Foot tapper posted:

...Chord DAVE within your category of analogue digital sources?

This is the combination that I was listening to yesterday.

Best regards, FT

What did you think of it, FT?

Hi Alba,

The system was the Melco + DAVE, 552DR/500DR, Wilson Yvette speakers, connected with some posh looking white (Chord?) cables.  Hence, I could not separate out the Melco/DAVE source from the amp & speakers. 

However, the system was very clear, articulate and able to resolve wonderfully fine details such as the ambience of the recording studio or the concert where the performance was recorded.  It timed absolutely superbly, with bass notes starting & stopping on the head of a pin.  Cymbals too just shimmered in a way that is very hard to reproduce with a hifi system.  Wilson speakers are normally good at pistonic bass but the 500DR certainly had a tight grip on those Yvettes.  There was also no evidence of a relentless, tiring sound.  No ear tearing treble either.  All together, superb. 

I'm just not sure if it was slightly synthetic sounding or emotionally cold.  Hard to put into words really, but there is something essentially human, musical or rounded about our system at home that we were struggling to find inside the robotic efficiency of this system.  It may have been the source, it may have been the speakers, or perhaps the room, who knows.  What it did do was to send us both away with the over-riding impression of a phenomenal system whose source absolutely warrants an audition in our more humble living room set up.

Hope this helps, FT  

which interconnect do you plan to use when you will audition the Dave at home?

Hi Analogmusic,

I struggle to see or hear the value in super expensive wires, so have not taken the time to look into all the alternatives.  If I had £3k+ to spare, I would put it into a better cartridge for the turntable, a phono stage or a lot of vinyl & concert tickets, not into a mains lead or interconnect.  I am sure that you hear things differently, so I do not ask you to agree, rather just to tolerate and respect my choices and priorities.

The interconnect will be whichever one the dealer recommends, so long as it isn't in four figures.  Which would you suggest, based on your experience?

Best regards, FT

Hi FT

With Dave I got very good results with The standard Naim lavender RCA to DIN

Regards

analogmusic posted:

Hi FT

With Dave I got very good results with The standard Naim lavender RCA to DIN

Regards

 

Blimey, to quote the forum word of the moment.  I might be able to afford one of those. 

If you wanted to feed your DAVE from a Roon server & Roon endpoint, if I'm using the correct terminology, are there any stand out recommendations that you have heard?  The audition list currently includes Antipodes CX (when available) or Roon Nucleus+.

Best regards, FT

with the Dave, apparently the Chord ASIO Windows Driver works best - although I never managed to get sufficient details out of Rob Watts how ASIO driver provides error correction. 

I settled the matter by listening tests, and windows 7 or 8 with the Chord drivers gives indeed excellent performance. with J River. That's what he uses himself, so I guess can't go wrong there?

So instead of the Room Nucleus I would use a simple Intel NUC with windows 7 operating system as a source into Dave.... I don't know about the server part, but it should be a fairly good one to be able to cope with the demands of Roon.

Hope this helps.

However, don't worry too much about all the technical details, Dave will provide excellent performance with a good source, windows or non-windows.

Massimo Bertola posted:

antony d posted:

Morning Kevin

have 2 sources NDX & LP12,  love both - before the updgrades on my deck in April used NDX 80% and LP12 20%

since the upgrades on LP12 it's fliped around now vinyl around 80% - dont get me wrong love the NDX as a source esp High res or DSD

but I have to say since the upgrades to LP12 (by Peter [@mention:1566878603906177]) the quality of the music the LP12 can deliver has gone beyond NDX

I thought the best upgrade on my system was 300 non DR to DR - but the recent upgrades on LP12 are nothing short of spectaclar

I would find an LP12 specialist and listen and then decide - have a budget in mind

 

Please do not forget to consider two 'orienting' factors, expectations and expense.

It's difficult to imagine that there were many chances that you'd hear worse sound after the Cymbiosis treatment, although I believe that some 'objective' improvements (not knowing what 'upgrades' you're referring to) did take place.

What if similar upgrades were done to your NDX? Just a question. Sorry for the many 's.

M.

 

M

in there lies a story

spent a whole day with the Cymbiosis team about 18 months ago on upgrade path, came to the view the NDX is at it's best when powered by a 555,  could not afford this so went down amp route, working on 250DR, then Phil mentioned SH 300 which I did not hesitate and then DR in early January

I wanted to play more vinyl and recently Linn offered updgade to Lingo 4 with Kore at a lower price - that did it for me

so NDX is bare at the moment,  but love the NDX as a source, and really works well in my system (282,HCDR,300DR)

now to the deck - Peter worked his magic - upgrades were about 4K new Cirkus baring, Lingo 4, Tampolin 2 & Kore , then from Tiger Paw Tranqulity & Khan in Black - also upgraded to Dynavector DV20X - the reaults are nothing short of breathtaking

Love the NDX, the 300 now DR is stunning, the LP12 upgrades are sublime!

in June of last year visited their factory in Glasgow, even then there Lp12 was in IMO a better source than full blown DSM system

hence my vinyl palying has shot up recently

glevethan posted:

After many years of saying NO Linn recently introduced DSD playback to the KDS.  I purchased a few Dylan DSD downloads.

WOW!

In case you missed that - WOW!

As far as I understand, Akurate DS/DSMs with Katalyst upgrade can now play native DSD too. However, DSD seems to be incompatible with Space Optimisation, which I'm using to fight some room modes.

Regarding DSD sound quality: I have some DSD rips converted to PCM and many of these already sound very good. Would be interesting to know if native DSD replay is even better.

kevin J Carden posted:

Dave J posted:

Nick Lees posted:

It’s an old Valhalla/Ittok with a Denon MC cart. For many years I’ve preferred playing CDs because they’re handier and I preferred the sound. Plus, I became allergic to ticks, scratches, pops, general surface noise and I got fed up getting up every 15 minutes or so

Then Hugo came along and came damn close to the CD555 and was even more convenient. And the DAVE blew the lot into the weeds soundwise.

I’ve heard a (I believe) a very close to maxxed out Swained LP12 on many occasions and it’s extremely  good. But not as good as the digital (Linn) player it shares a system with.

I occasionally get the urge to play the LP12, so keep it, but I’m struggling to justify keeping the CD player.

Possibly a system not far from here?

 

Dave, you’re a prime candidate for my poll. Uber LP12 vs KDS. What do you listen to?

Love your 606’s btw. Just reproduce the quality of what’s fed to them. 

Apologies Kevin for the belated reply, all down to a hefty week + daughter’s forthcoming wedding...

I’m with JH in that what I listen to most is not necessarily what I consider to be the best, although Nick’s comments are fair and reasonable as they’re based on my system after all - it’s often simply down to the recording, though.

I know it’s banging an old drum, but my exposure to Chord cables, from early Sarum upwards, has enabled me to enjoy digital and (finally) regard it exactly as we were originally told it should be. It took a bit of work but standard CD rips are now epic.

Linn’s Katalyst has helped enormously, as has ChordMusic, to the extent that it’s not really an issue to stream - even Tidal exceeds whatever I could reasonably expect of it and 24bit downloads can be utterly sublime, so I’ve ended up streaming a good 90% of the time.

In truth, I don’t always have as much time to play music as much I’d like, so the KDS is a godsend. If I only have 20-30 mins, it does what I need, whereas I need a good 15 minutes before the Kandid reaches optimal temperature, so the LP12, great though it is, has become a “special occasion” play rather than the default. When I eventually retire, I’m sure I’ll play a lot more vinyl than I do now but for the time being I’ll probably continue to play the KDS a lot more.

I’m going to repeat what I often do in threads like this.  It will be good if there’s synergy from performance, mains, source, amps, and right speakers in the right room.  

I guess I'm at the end of my CD-listening days (except on occasion in the car).  I've just arranged to sell my EMM Labs XDS1.  Almost my complete CD collection has been ripped to a NAS and my Core.  Others live stored on USB drives.    I really don't miss the CDs, and can listen to whatever I want within seconds (well, maybe a little longer than than that).  For a while I thought that I might actually listen to my CD player, but I haven't, so I decided to sell it.  Hopefully no regrets.  That also means getting rid of a lot of expensive power cables & interconnects.  I can save up for some other piece of Naim gear.  Maybe Super Lumina speaker cables.

I have just replaced a dodgy suspension tower on my Michell Orb and fine tuned the arm/cartridge setup (big improvement) and ordered a Project VCS Mk II to replace my 'broken' Keith Monks RCM. 

As a result, my listening habits have changed quite considerably since my last post. At the moment I reckon, approximately:

Vinyl: 45%

Streaming (own NAS and Tidal): 45%

Internet radio: 10%

A word for Innocent Bystander though. Please don't adjust your collated stats just yet. I reckon that when my current vinyl fix is sated in a couple of months time, my ongoing music replay split will be something like:

Streaming (NAS or Tidal): 70%

Vinyl: 20%

Internet radio:10%

My use of CDs for anything other than immediately ripping to my NAS will remain at 0%, and my vinyl purchases (apart from the very rare 'audiophile' LP) will be almost exclusively from the second hand market. I have found that very few modern pressings can match the best older pressings once the LPs are properly cleaned.     

Hmack posted:

 

My use of CDs for anything other than immediately ripping to my NAS will remain at 0%, and my vinyl purchases (apart from the very rare 'audiophile' LP) will be almost exclusively from the second hand market. I have found that very few modern pressings can match the best older pressings once the LPs are properly cleaned.     

Ah yes, I hadn’t yet budgeted for a record cleaning machine. Add to list...

Yes, what I attributed to deterioration due to wear I am learning could well at least in part have been accumulating dirt, despite my scrupulous attention, as a man is no match for a cleaning machine... I suspect a fundamental part of the system if you are serious anout vinyl.

LP12 90%

NDS Streaming 24 bit 5%

NDS Tidal 5% (mainly trying new music before buying on vinyl).

No-one who has heard my system thinks digital comes even close to the LP12.  The only downer is the cost of a new XV1S - £3.5k every 3 years.  

My next door neghbour called in earlier.  The  CDS3 was spinning when he arrived and he sat and listened to Riders on the Storm.  I then played it on vinyl, he said completely unprompted that the CD wasn’t even close

The Strat (Fender) posted:

My next door neghbour called in earlier.  The  CDS3 was spinning when he arrived and he sat and listened to Riders on the Storm.  I then played it on vinyl, he said completely unprompted that the CD wasn’t even close

You should really try the 24bit version from Qobuz. It would definitely be a lot closer to the vinyl version.

closer but still far....

The Strat (Fender) posted:

My next door neghbour called in earlier.  The  CDS3 was spinning when he arrived and he sat and listened to Riders on the Storm.  I then played it on vinyl, he said completely unprompted that the CD wasn’t even close

Hi Strat,

Even after the upgrade to 555DR power supply, or has that not arrived yet?

p.s. same for me!

Indeed, the CDS3 was good, but wasn’t that close to modern devices... back when I had a CDS3 my TT got a lot of use.

Gosh. Did you really mean to write that?

don’t worry Foot Taper, cds3/555dr is very close to nds/555dr, even on hirez.....so your vertere is still the master.