You are happy with both your high quality Digital front end and your Record Player. How much do you use the latter?

I think with many of us above a certain age where the two sources are closer together in SQ nostalgia can play a part and also the fact that the physical action of pouring a drink selecting a record putting it on and settling down to listen can be extremely relaxing and de stressing.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

interesting, but in my opinion It's more of a technical issue, as Simon has explained before in this thread.

Digital playback can be just as enjoyable as the best Vinyl. and it took one particular DAC (and the innovation behind it) to get there.... In my opinion .....

Bob the Builder posted:

I think with many of us above a certain age where the two sources are closer together in SQ nostalgia can play a part and also the fact that the physical action of pouring a drink selecting a record putting it on and settling down to listen can be extremely relaxing and de stressing.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

Certainly that has been an assumption of mine. But although I am certainly of such an age, and I do Have very fond memories of the physicality of LP covers and cover art/sleeve notes - of which CD a poor miniature imitation, and streaming a computer process that divorces the info from the recording - and the magic that went with the latest purchase especially with friends having the same musical interest - it has not been sufficient to wed me to its limitations. 

However, others insist that it actually sounds better to them, denying a nostalgia effect - which could be a psychological effect of the nostalgia or conditioning over years, or of course they simply prefer the different presentation.

It’s not nostalgia in my view

good analog recordings got a certain magic about them but now it’s been addressed by the latest digital DACs .... I can detect no musical differences anymore ....

still enjoy vinyl but it’s no longer necessary but still musical .... I’m no longer motivated to go spend money on vinyl...  

tidal is a musical dream come true 

French Rooster posted:

closer but still far....

Ah, but have you actually heard the 24bit 96 KHz version from Qobuz. 

I can understand why you might subjectively prefer a vinyl version of the album, but the difference in sound quality certainly isn't 'far'.

I see from your profile that you have a very good turntable and a pretty good streamer as well. However, in my experience there are streamers (& DACs) that give a more 'analogue' sounding presentation of music than that of the older generation Naims. Have you listened to a Klimax DS/3 or one of the Chord DACs? 

555 PSU not arrived yet but in my experience the NDS/555 is somewhat languid in comparison with the CDS3/555.  Of course other Digital advices are available  

Tidal is useful - a bit like Radio 1 used to be 

Hmack posted:

French Rooster posted:

closer but still far....

Ah, but have you actually heard the 24bit 96 KHz version from Qobuz. 

I can understand why you might subjectively prefer a vinyl version of the album, but the difference in sound quality certainly isn't 'far'.

I see from your profile that you have a very good turntable and a pretty good streamer as well. However, in my experience there are streamers (& DACs) that give a more 'analogue' sounding presentation of music than that of the older generation Naims. Have you listened to a Klimax DS/3 or one of the Chord DACs? 

Hmack - I totally agree where you are going - but a 24bit 96kHz PCM is going to be potentially so technically superior to a phono playback (vinyl is the media of course) - however the key dependency will be the actual reconstruction of the analogue signal. With phono playback - the vinyl media is part of the electro mechanical reconstruction, where as with electronic DACs it is entirely electronic/digital..... Both introduce artefacts, but arguably its only the very recent DACs that have reduced this artefacts down to levels which many find acceptable - ie give that 'analogue' feel. A good TT will reconstruct the sound - but there will be all sorts of distortions and errors but because many of these will be physically related I suspect they will be more harmonically related and so feel less jarring compared to some of the in harmonic artefacts from earlier DACs and supporting componentry. There is also the fact that phono playback uses companding - that is an expansion of the sound based on frequency to compensate for the limitations in encoding the sound in a groove cut in plastic... this in my experience can be fraught with errors - and most phono RIAA preamps seem to err on the side of expansion giving an attractive low end and fuller boost to the sound that many (including myself) find attractive... but ultimately although it sounds nice, but I don't get that sense of realism I do from a state of the art DAC and a top flight recording ... but clearly I totally get this is going to vary from person to person.

Chase Masters wrote an interesting thesis that you can read online that shows the trend of preference from black and white to colour (and inferred film vs digital..)  imaging over time and again conditioning of preference and acceptability of a form can very much change based on nurtured influences. 

As per Simon-in-Suffolk and Analoguemusic said - listen to an Uber totl current spec DAC/Streamer - computer or whatever you want to call it.  I have both - a TOTL uber Peter Swain LP12 and a current spec KLIMAX DS.  I also have a massively large collection of both records and ripped CD's so no bias there in terms of software.

A Klimax DS is something to to behold.  Not saying that it is better or worse than the LP12 - simply that it can provide the same amount of pleasure.  Enough said.

Hmack posted:

French Rooster posted:

closer but still far....

Ah, but have you actually heard the 24bit 96 KHz version from Qobuz. 

I can understand why you might subjectively prefer a vinyl version of the album, but the difference in sound quality certainly isn't 'far'.

I see from your profile that you have a very good turntable and a pretty good streamer as well. However, in my experience there are streamers (& DACs) that give a more 'analogue' sounding presentation of music than that of the older generation Naims. Have you listened to a Klimax DS/3 or one of the Chord DACs? 

You are right, i have not heard chord dave . linn klimax ds2 yes.  But i am quite sure, at 99,98%, that i would not change my point of view.   I can’t describe it, it is not nostalgia.  It is a sens of realism that a good turntable / cart/ and phono stage has and digital not.   like 4k photos on the best camera and real vision.

Hmmm but do you have a Naim preamp ?

French Rooster posted:

You are right, i have not heard chord dave . linn klimax ds2 yes.  But i am quite sure, at 99,98%, that i would not change my point of view.   I can’t describe it, it is not nostalgia.  It is a sens of realism that a good turntable / cart/ and phono stage has and digital not.   like 4k photos on the best camera and real vision.

Analogmusic was apparently just such a digital sceptic until he heard a Hugo, which resulted in his conversion...   However, to have your claimed level of certainty before hearing is likely to mean you would be biased anyway if you were to hear. 

No photos, whatever the pixel count or bit depth (or grain size etc) are like real vision at all - not least because real vision is three dimensional (for normally-sighted people), dynamic, and focus of the rest of the image varies according to what the eye is foussed on, and a flat and frozen image on a screen or on paper is only ever that. If by 4k you were thinking of moving images rather than still photos, that in 3D is getting closer - but still too many limitations, not least the mechanism of presenting the two images from a single screen. Maybe twin microscreens worn in front of the eyes - e.g VR -but I don’t have experience or enough knowledge to judge. I actually think that good recorded music does a better job of simulating the sound of a real event as if you are there than any visual recording, still or moving.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

You are right, i have not heard chord dave . linn klimax ds2 yes.  But i am quite sure, at 99,98%, that i would not change my point of view.   I can’t describe it, it is not nostalgia.  It is a sens of realism that a good turntable / cart/ and phono stage has and digital not.   like 4k photos on the best camera and real vision.

Analogmusic was apparently just such a digital sceptic until he heard a Hugo, which resulted in his conversion...   However, to have your claimed level of certainty before hearing is likely to mean you would be biased anyway if you were to hear. 

No photos, whatever the pixel count or bit depth (or grain size etc) are like real vision at all - not least because real vision is three dimensional (for normally-sighted people), dynamic, and focus of the rest of the image varies according to what the eye is foussed on, and a flat and frozen image on a screen or on paper is only ever that. If by 4k you were thinking of moving images rather than still photos, that in 3D is getting closer - but still too many limitations, not least the mechanism of presenting the two images from a single screen. Maybe twin microscreens worn in front of the eyes - e.g VR -but I don’t have experience or enough knowledge to judge. I actually think that good recorded music does a better job of simulating the sound of a real event as if you are there than any visual recording, still or moving.

 

analogmusic posted:

Hmmm but do you have a Naim preamp ?

i preferred my actual preamp vs the past 252, a bit edgy sometimes and not so rich in tone colors as mine.  And the phono inside the ear 912 is fantastic too.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

You are right, i have not heard chord dave . linn klimax ds2 yes.  But i am quite sure, at 99,98%, that i would not change my point of view.   I can’t describe it, it is not nostalgia.  It is a sens of realism that a good turntable / cart/ and phono stage has and digital not.   like 4k photos on the best camera and real vision.

Analogmusic was apparently just such a digital sceptic until he heard a Hugo, which resulted in his conversion...   However, to have your claimed level of certainty before hearing is likely to mean you would be biased anyway if you were to hear. 

No photos, whatever the pixel count or bit depth (or grain size etc) are like real vision at all - not least because real vision is three dimensional (for normally-sighted people), dynamic, and focus of the rest of the image varies according to what the eye is foussed on, and a flat and frozen image on a screen or on paper is only ever that. If by 4k you were thinking of moving images rather than still photos, that in 3D is getting closer - but still too many limitations, not least the mechanism of presenting the two images from a single screen. Maybe twin microscreens worn in front of the eyes - e.g VR -but I don’t have experience or enough knowledge to judge. I actually think that good recorded music does a better job of simulating the sound of a real event as if you are there than any visual recording, still or moving.

 

4k photo is a wrong information, thanks....I just wanted to try to explain the differences in good vinyl and digital, for me.  There is for me , and others, something more real in good vinyl reproduction.  The magic is there.  Difficult to explain, but it is not nostalgia or some blind belief.

About once a week.

 not least because real vision is three dimensional

 

Only for things within a relatively few feet of you.  Beyond that it is 2D.  You can test this quite easily - look at some distant objects and repeatedly close alternate eyes.  There will be no discernable parallax effects.

 There is for me , and others, something more real in good vinyl reproduction.  The magic is there.  Difficult to explain, but it is not nostalgia or some blind belief.

And yet there is so much wrong with any vinyl recording.  Strange, isn't it?

Beachcomber posted:

 not least because real vision is three dimensional

 

Only for things within a relatively few feet of you.  Beyond that it is 2D.  You can test this quite easily - look at some distant objects and repeatedly close alternate eyes.  There will be no discernable parallax effects.

I might be unique here, but both my eyes and ears don't follow a closely matched pair.   Maybe why I have a more discernible grasp over natural phenomena. I'm just off to do some hunting and gathering. Bye.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

You are right, i have not heard chord dave . linn klimax ds2 yes.  But i am quite sure, at 99,98%, that i would not change my point of view.   I can’t describe it, it is not nostalgia.  It is a sens of realism that a good turntable / cart/ and phono stage has and digital not.   like 4k photos on the best camera and real vision.

Analogmusic was apparently just such a digital sceptic until he heard a Hugo, which resulted in his conversion...   However, to have your claimed level of certainty before hearing is likely to mean you would be biased anyway if you were to hear. 

No photos, whatever the pixel count or bit depth (or grain size etc) are like real vision at all - not least because real vision is three dimensional (for normally-sighted people), dynamic, and focus of the rest of the image varies according to what the eye is foussed on, and a flat and frozen image on a screen or on paper is only ever that. If by 4k you were thinking of moving images rather than still photos, that in 3D is getting closer - but still too many limitations, not least the mechanism of presenting the two images from a single screen. Maybe twin microscreens worn in front of the eyes - e.g VR -but I don’t have experience or enough knowledge to judge. I actually think that good recorded music does a better job of simulating the sound of a real event as if you are there than any visual recording, still or moving.

 

i would not say digital is 2d and vinyl is 3d, but digital is not completely 3d for me.   I heard expensive dacs from dcs , meitner and esoteric, and i didn’t changed my mind.

And i strongly doubt that chord dave is the best dac in the world, above anything else, and even better than high end vinyl rig.

Perhaps dave is better than my nds/555dr, i don’t know, but i can’t be night and day.

Some months ago, there was a test of the finest dacs in the market, by 3 reviewers:  dcs vivaldi, ch precision, chord dave, berkeley reference, nds, and another i don’t remember.

Some preferred the berkeley, some the dcs, and Martin Colloms preferred the prat and involvement of the nds.

Beachcomber posted:

 There is for me , and others, something more real in good vinyl reproduction.  The magic is there.  Difficult to explain, but it is not nostalgia or some blind belief.

And yet there is so much wrong with any vinyl recording.  Strange, isn't it?

it can be technically worse but sound better.  I am more talking about vinyls cut from master tapes and recorded in analog way.  Some specialists say the absolute sound is from master tapes....

TOBYJUG posted:

Beachcomber posted:

 not least because real vision is three dimensional

 

Only for things within a relatively few feet of you.  Beyond that it is 2D.  You can test this quite easily - look at some distant objects and repeatedly close alternate eyes.  There will be no discernable parallax effects.

I might be unique here, but both my eyes and ears don't follow a closely matched pair.   Maybe why I have a more discernible grasp over natural phenomena. I'm just off to do some hunting and gathering. Bye.

it is digital distortion....

French Rooster posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Beachcomber posted:

 not least because real vision is three dimensional

 

Only for things within a relatively few feet of you.  Beyond that it is 2D.  You can test this quite easily - look at some distant objects and repeatedly close alternate eyes.  There will be no discernable parallax effects.

I might be unique here, but both my eyes and ears don't follow a closely matched pair.   Maybe why I have a more discernible grasp over natural phenomena. I'm just off to do some hunting and gathering. Bye.

it is digital distortion....

There are some who believe that reality is essentially a digital hologram concocted by higher beings.

This is a microscopic image of a blade of grass....    Digital enough for you ??

TOBYJUG posted:

French Rooster posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Beachcomber posted:

 not least because real vision is three dimensional

 

Only for things within a relatively few feet of you.  Beyond that it is 2D.  You can test this quite easily - look at some distant objects and repeatedly close alternate eyes.  There will be no discernable parallax effects.

I might be unique here, but both my eyes and ears don't follow a closely matched pair.   Maybe why I have a more discernible grasp over natural phenomena. I'm just off to do some hunting and gathering. Bye.

it is digital distortion....

There are some who believe that reality is essentially a digital hologram concocted by higher beings.

This is a microscopic image of a blade of grass....    Digital enough for you ??

it is like seeing grass with lsd or peyotl...fantastic !

French Rooster posted:

Beachcomber posted:

 There is for me , and others, something more real in good vinyl reproduction.  The magic is there.  Difficult to explain, but it is not nostalgia or some blind belief.

And yet there is so much wrong with any vinyl recording.  Strange, isn't it?

it can be technically worse but sound better.  I am more talking about vinyls cut from master tapes and recorded in analog way.  Some specialists say the absolute sound is from master tapes....

Indeed you might prefer it - and that is, of course, fine.  But it is further from the original sound than (good) digital is, FWIW.  Master tapes, of course, don't suffer from the innate technical difficulties that vinyl does, though it does have some (slight) problems itself (tape hiss, print through etc.).

Beachcomber posted:

French Rooster posted:

Beachcomber posted:

 There is for me , and others, something more real in good vinyl reproduction.  The magic is there.  Difficult to explain, but it is not nostalgia or some blind belief.

And yet there is so much wrong with any vinyl recording.  Strange, isn't it?

it can be technically worse but sound better.  I am more talking about vinyls cut from master tapes and recorded in analog way.  Some specialists say the absolute sound is from master tapes....

Indeed you might prefer it - and that is, of course, fine.  But it is further from the original sound than (good) digital is, FWIW.  Master tapes, of course, don't suffer from the innate technical difficulties that vinyl does, though it does have some (slight) problems itself (tape hiss, print through etc.).

original lps, from analog era, where cut directly from master tapes. I can’t see how it is further from the original sound than good digital.  Can you explain please ?

well - analog tape got a nice sound to it, but digital masters at 192/24 are more true and realistic.

analog tape and vinyl got a slight softness which doesn’t happen in real music