Naim SL2 vs Ovator S400?

joerand posted:

Khan posted:

Is the Ovator S400 any less fiddly with setup?

I can't speak to the SL2, but the S400 worked well in my room about 2-feet from the front wall, 8-feet apart, and 3.5-feet from side walls. Contrary to some other's findings here, I found the 400 not overly sensitive to placement. Their bass worked superb in my room. Downside was their brash mid range, rolled-off highs, and flat sound stage. Highly musical speakers though.

A very mixed and contradictory but, surprisingly, accurate description. Khan, keep in mind that the downsides signaled by joerand might have something to do with his room, eventually. I, at least, don't agree on flat soundstage. And 50% of how a system sounds is in the recording.

Best

M

BTW, talking of soundstage, I've heard very often and very accurately SBLs, N-Sats, Allaes and SL2s, and not one of them projected the 'stage' other than outside of the speakers' plain, and sounds beyond the front plain were, in most cases, a dream.

Khan -- at least trying the SL2s sounds like the right move. i saw a pair of rosewood Allaes recently that were beautiful, so hopefully your SL2s will be in the same league.

one question, and perhaps a dumb one: can you put the wardrobe somewhere else?

I really wanted a "rosewood" pair of SL2s.  The opportunity came up after a B stock pair came up at the factory. And boy did they look stunning. However, for some reason this pair just sounded "off".  They spent some time at the factory where we were investigating why they should sound so flat.  Despite changing just about everything, nothing seemed to make them sing.  In the end it seemed there was something about the top boxes that was causing a problem.  Substituting the top boxes from another pair was a transformation.  Putting the rosewood top boxes on the other speakers made them sound really flat.  Swapping drivers over and the result was the same.  I don't know what had happened with those Rosewood top boxes, but they just killed the sound somehow.  Maybe too much glue in a joint?  It was a weird one, and in the end I changed my black cabinet pair over to some cherry ones that had received minor transit damage but had been skilfully rebuilt and touched in by the guys in the Speaker dept.   I still them and they sound fabulous.

Hey Richard,

that sounds a little scary. I know Naim had a rosewood pair in their listening room? Did you manage to hear that one? Did it also sound flat?

My SL2s played fantastically well without being close to the wall. So there's nothing to be afraid of! There is always a chance to change something in the room, in order to achieve a better sound.

And finish rosewood is the most beautiful of any of the speakers.

Good luck!

I remember we had that Rosewood pair in there for a few weeks while we were trying to figure out why they sounded so flat. I don't know if there were others.  Maybe after my time, although by then i think the Ovators were coming on line.

Richard Dane posted:

I remember we had that Rosewood pair in there for a few weeks while we were trying to figure out why they sounded so flat. I don't know if there were others.  Maybe after my time, although by then i think the Ovators were coming on line.

Or maybe you just had to warm them up well? I don't think all the speakers with the rosewood finish is just as bad sounds like that couple. You're just out of luck, bad sample. Well, or not played until the end.

Under no circumstances will a thin veneer of rosewood affect the sound. The main carcase may have had an issue, or it may have been the internal damping or treatment, or indeed the finish on the rosewood veneer that may have affected it.  It's also possible that an aspect of the drivers, the bolt torque, or a crossover issue, will have been at fault. The fact that it was a particular veneer is of very little significance.

blimey Richard - the rosewood issue is quite interesting.

I will eagerly wait to read how Khan gets on with his SL2....

Richard Dane posted:

I remember we had that Rosewood pair in there for a few weeks while we were trying to figure out why they sounded so flat. I don't know if there were others.  Maybe after my time, although by then i think the Ovators were coming on line.

My Ovators are rosewood, and I remember that they cost €6/700 more than the other finishes. It would be ironic if the responsible for the flatness was the finish.

Sometimes they do sound a little flat (although I am not sure I understand what it means), others they are lively and do a lot of happy noise. I still think it depends on:

- Mains

- State of mind

- Recording (in reverse order, probably)

more than on anything else. Ovators are underrated. Their time will come, like Mahler's.

Massimo Bertola posted:

Richard Dane posted:

I remember we had that Rosewood pair in there for a few weeks while we were trying to figure out why they sounded so flat. I don't know if there were others.  Maybe after my time, although by then i think the Ovators were coming on line.

My Ovators are rosewood, and I remember that they cost €6/700 more than the other finishes. It would be ironic if the responsible for the flatness was the finish.

Sometimes they do sound a little flat (although I am not sure I understand what it means), others they are lively and do a lot of happy noise. I still think it depends on:

- Mains

- State of mind

- Recording (in reverse order, probably)

more than on anything else. Ovators are underrated. Their time will come, like Mahler's.

Indeed, and Ovators are build like tanks. Metal grills and quite heavy. Build to last.

I listen to a lot organ music on them, and the most complex preludes and fugues stay transparent.

I was recently in a hifi shop and listened to Marin Logan electrostats. The mid  / high was very similar to my Ovators, but my Ovators' low end is much better. The Logan's sounded desintegrated.

Max, no it wasn't the finish, because a different pair of Rosewood SL2s sounded great.  It was just that pair.  It was sad because it was a pair that Doug had taken home to try to see whether they would stand in for his NBLs.  He hated them, and I couldn't understand it until he brought them into the factory listening room so we could hear them.  Ugh... We tried to get them to sound right.  We tried everything.  Changed everything. Rebuilt them over and over, drive units back and forth, but to no avail. I was the top boxes, for sure. The joints did look different to the ones in my own pair, and I think possibly someone at Hornslet had a bad day.  The good news was that they went Doug and not to a customer.

Richard Dane posted:

Max, no it wasn't the finish, because a different pair of Rosewood SL2s sounded great.  It was just that pair.  It was sad because it was a pair that Doug had taken home to try to see whether they would stand in for his NBLs.  He hated them, and I couldn't understand it until he brought them into the factory listening room so we could hear them.  Ugh... We tried to get them to sound right.  We tried everything.  Changed everything. Rebuilt them over and over, drive units back and forth, but to no avail. I was the top boxes, for sure. The joints did look different to the ones in my own pair, and I think possibly someone at Hornslet had a bad day.  The good news was that they went Doug and not to a customer.

The first pair of maple SL2s I owned suffered from a similar strange malaise. There was nothing obviously wrong with their construction, yet they just never sounded right, despite the noble efforts of both my dealer and Naim. Another new pair were just fine, and I believe the rogue pair were scrapped by the factory.

(Sorry for the diversion)

Are DBLs so hard to set up?  I think mine sound great, but you never know what you are missing (or if there are any setup tips) unless you have a chance to hears someone else’s (which I haven’t). 

tonym posted:

Richard Dane posted:

Max, no it wasn't the finish, because a different pair of Rosewood SL2s sounded great.  It was just that pair.  It was sad because it was a pair that Doug had taken home to try to see whether they would stand in for his NBLs.  He hated them, and I couldn't understand it until he brought them into the factory listening room so we could hear them.  Ugh... We tried to get them to sound right.  We tried everything.  Changed everything. Rebuilt them over and over, drive units back and forth, but to no avail. I was the top boxes, for sure. The joints did look different to the ones in my own pair, and I think possibly someone at Hornslet had a bad day.  The good news was that they went Doug and not to a customer.

The first pair of maple SL2s I owned suffered from a similar strange malaise. There was nothing obviously wrong with their construction, yet they just never sounded right, despite the noble efforts of both my dealer and Naim. Another new pair were just fine, and I believe the rogue pair were scrapped by the factory.

There were a few pairs where the recess for the interface plates wasn't quite right - the tolerance here was probably too tough, even for the very best cabinet makers. Hornslet made improvements and I think that the guys and girls in the speaker dept. finally found a way around this to make it all work well within a slightly wider tolerance and prevent the plate from sinking too far.  It sounds like your maple pair may have been one of the ones affected.  Or perhaps the top box glued joint struck again!

vintageaxeman posted:

Under no circumstances will a thin veneer of rosewood affect the sound. The main carcase may have had an issue, or it may have been the internal damping or treatment, or indeed the finish on the rosewood veneer that may have affected it.  It's also possible that an aspect of the drivers, the bolt torque, or a crossover issue, will have been at fault. The fact that it was a particular veneer is of very little significance.

I'm curious - do you have any explanation of how and why finish/veneer can/cannot affect the sound?

Sergey72vw posted:

My SL2s played fantastically well without being close to the wall. So there's nothing to be afraid of! There is always a chance to change something in the room, in order to achieve a better sound.

And finish rosewood is the most beautiful of any of the speakers.

Good luck!

Hiwever, as speakers designed to be close to the wall, their bass response inevitably will fall off significantly when well away from a wall.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hiwever, as speakers designed to be close to the wall, their bass response inevitably will fall off significantly when well away from a wall.

Yes anything there does not fall in terms of bass, no need to come. I lived with them for about 2.5 years and I had no opportunity to put them close to the wall. It is better to pay attention to the fact that they are demanding to the amplifier and they are very difficult to open.

But the author of the theme is Nac 552, so the sound will be fantastic.

Massimo Bertola posted:

joerand posted:

Khan posted:

Is the Ovator S400 any less fiddly with setup?

I can't speak to the SL2, but the S400 worked well in my room about 2-feet from the front wall, 8-feet apart, and 3.5-feet from side walls. Contrary to some other's findings here, I found the 400 not overly sensitive to placement. Their bass worked superb in my room. Downside was their brash mid range, rolled-off highs, and flat sound stage. Highly musical speakers though.

A very mixed and contradictory but, surprisingly, accurate description. Khan, keep in mind that the downsides signaled by joerand might have something to do with his room, eventually. I, at least, don't agree on flat soundstage. And 50% of how a system sounds is in the recording.

Best

M

Max, glad to see you got the gist of my post. The 400 are wonderful speakers with fantastically nimble bass. Their taut bass control leads to their musicality. The fact that I found them too mids forward and with rolled-off highs speaks to my ears and my room. The fact I found a flat sound stage has to do with my own expectations for satisfying hifi replay. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate the 400 sound and why others enjoy them. Despite using the 400 with Plinius amplification, I was amazed by how the speakers instilled Naim's signature speed and agility into my system's sound.

FWIW - my wife loved the 400 sound when I had them home and would have been completely pleased had I kept them. They were rosewood and much larger than my cherry speakers at the time, yet she felt they looked great in our otherwise all cherry finished room.

Joe,

another very unique trait of the S-400s, that not many consider enough because they haven't seen it at home, is how they seem to fit every room and mingle with any type of furniture. in other words, they are beautiful everywhere.

(BTW, I have written many times that I do not care for velvety midrange and super smooth treble, because it is not how real music sounds).

M.

Sergey72vw posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hiwever, as speakers designed to be close to the wall, their bass response inevitably will fall off significantly when well away from a wall.

Yes anything there does not fall in terms of bass, no need to come. I lived with them for about 2.5 years and I had no opportunity to put them close to the wall. It is better to pay attention to the fact that they are demanding to the amplifier and they are very difficult to open.

But the author of the theme is Nac 552, so the sound will be fantastic.

I suspect you are lacking bass, but like it that way so it doesn’t matter!

Hi Richard here are my previous  cherry SL2s now superseded by S600  i was not totally fond of this finish, a little too red_ish compared to my nSat. Probably i prefered a black couple very iconic finish.

Regards

Roberto

Roberto, early cherry had a tinted varnish which made them slightly red.  Later ones were clear so lost the red tint.  My own pair are later ones but have early cabinets which look similar to yours but with slightly more obvious figuring to the veneer.

p.s. I like the shade of green on the wall in your picture.

Massimo Bertola posted:

Joe,

another very unique trait of the S-400s, that not many consider enough because they haven't seen it at home, is how they seem to fit every room and mingle with any type of furniture. in other words, they are beautiful everywhere.

(BTW, I have written many times that I do not care for velvety midrange and super smooth treble, because it is not how real music sounds).

M.

Max

you are not listening to the direct instruments but a recording of those instruments therefore an interpretation of how the music sounded by both the recording engineer and the mixing engineer

after attending a live concert recently of one of my favorite singers I was not impressed and much preferred the recordings. In fact I wish I hadn’t bothered attending the concert 

i don’t know why artists think that live music at ear blasting levels is fun because it wasn’t for me. 

Theres a lot of distortion that comes out of driving PA Rigs are very high SPL and I may well really reduce my concert attendance to protect my ears !