MQA - updated thoughts please

I have the impression the momentum in MQA has somewhat dissipated.... its kind of ended as a nich format like DSD but probably less impact on the market... I think most who are in the market for hidef audio probably don’t want to use a lossy codec with artefacts that assume psychoacoustically your brain ignores them... don’t get me wrong, it’s all very clever, but I think it’s technology looking for a market.

I have heard it with a software decoder into a DAC, it sounded ok and some tracks sounded rather fun, it seemingly sounded better on cheaper less resolving equipment... the better the equipment was I heard it on, the more artificial it sounded... I now use lossless HIdef, or 44.1/16 but I gave it a try.

I listen to it on Tidal via Roon into a Nova so I only get the first unfold.

I am a huge fan - it makes the music sound better in comparison to my rips of the same albums. It's hard to nail down what "better" denotes but the words clarity and authority spring to mind. Listening to Live Dead (Grateful Dead) the other evening with a friend we heard an MQA version of St Stephen and then had to resort to a rip of The Eleven because you just can't have one without the other. My friend had no idea they were different codecs but spontaneously said "Who stuffed cotton wool in my ears?".  Until then I thought my Live Dead rip sounded damn fine and it still does, but I had to agree. It's not night and day but back to back MQA really shines.

All at no extra cost to me.  

cant say I could pin an improvement .think its dead duck  

Diverse opinions already.

Listened to Snow Patrol’s new album yesterday on Tidal 24-bit MQA via Roon into an MQA-enabled DAC and I was very impressed. Amazing to be getting such a great sound from the Internet on my main system.

MQA Albums are remastered as I have understood, which could explain the different sound to your own rips. Hard to pinpoint what is remaster and what is MQA.

If I compare on my headphones, through Tidal, both the MQA and non MQA mastered versions and my own rips, I prefer my own rips all of the time. Listening to MQA makes me tired in the longer run. I listen to rock and classical, and it is a consistent experience.

It is great though that Tidal offers you the option. I might not like it, but others do.

Since Roon has added first unfold I have listened to quite a lot of MQA. Some sound exceptionally good others not so, much like digital music in general. If there is an MQA version I will play it. Some how ever I have switched to normal cd quality flac and preferred it.

Interesting debate over multiple issues in Stereophile. Covers all the technical detail you could ever need but makes it clear that the industry has serious concerns about quality and monopoly.

Pev posted:

I listen to it on Tidal via Roon into a Nova so I only get the first unfold.

I am a huge fan - it makes the music sound better in comparison to my rips of the same albums. It's hard to nail down what "better" denotes but the words clarity and authority spring to mind. Listening to Live Dead (Grateful Dead) the other evening with a friend we heard an MQA version of St Stephen and then had to resort to a rip of The Eleven because you just can't have one without the other. My friend had no idea they were different codecs but spontaneously said "Who stuffed cotton wool in my ears?".  Until then I thought my Live Dead rip sounded damn fine and it still does, but I had to agree. It's not night and day but back to back MQA really shines.

All at no extra cost to me.  

the nova can decode mqa ?   i thought no naim streamer or dac could decode mqa.   

jmtennapel posted:

MQA Albums are remastered as I have understood, which could explain the different sound to your own rips. Hard to pinpoint what is remaster and what is MQA.

If I compare on my headphones, through Tidal, both the MQA and non MQA mastered versions and my own rips, I prefer my own rips all of the time. Listening to MQA makes me tired in the longer run. I listen to rock and classical, and it is a consistent experience.

It is great though that Tidal offers you the option. I might not like it, but others do.

what is your dac or streamer if i may ask ?

how does it work ?  how the sonore is connected, to a pc, to the nds?   you are streaming tidal mqa with your nds, via sonore?   nds can’t decode mqa, sonore is not a dac, so i don’t understand how you can stream mqa with nds and sonore.....i am lost 

Sonore UPnP Bridge runs on the same network, and behaves as a Roon Endpoint, but presents the stream to the Ethernet input of the Naim player. So the Roon Core is running on the NUC, controlled by a Roon Remote, with the Bridge selected as a playback zone, and the Naim sees a WAV stream (also can see a native DSD64 stream from dsf files too).

So I have some MQA (44.1k, 48k, 96k & 192k) encoded files in my NAS Library, served by Roon with 1st unfold performed in the Roon Core, and then MQA Masters streamed over the internet. That gives me the 4 different paths to try. Actually there is 5, playback of the local MQA through the Naim App via the UPnP server, but these are only seen as 24/48 files, without any decoding.

All very interesting and on occasion all having merit, but with access to a large library of MQA material. But at the same over 50% of my local 80k tracks are also HiRes.

Does that provide you with any further direction, [@mention:56335183628232089]?

simes_pep posted:

Sonore UPnP Bridge runs on the same network, and behaves as a Roon Endpoint, but presents the stream to the Ethernet input of the Naim player. So the Roon Core is running on the NUC, controlled by a Roon Remote, with the Bridge selected as a playback zone, and the Naim sees a WAV stream (also can see a native DSD64 stream from dsf files too).

So I have some MQA (44.1k, 48k, 96k & 192k) encoded files in my NAS Library, served by Roon with 1st unfold performed in the Roon Core, and then MQA Masters streamed over the internet. That gives me the 4 different paths to try. Actually there is 5, playback of the local MQA through the Naim App via the UPnP server, but these are only seen as 24/48 files, without any decoding.

All very interesting and on occasion all having merit, but with access to a large library of MQA material. But at the same over 50% of my local 80k tracks are also HiRes.

Does that provide you with any further direction, [@mention:56335183628232089]?

nds streaming mqa files from tidal is not really streaming mqa, because it has no mqa dac.  So are you really sure to listen to mqa files with your system, or just using roon and his presentation with the help of sonore micro rendu, but not really decoding mqa?    perhaps you are using another dac than the nds?

Would not say it is day or night to me. Some albums sounded subjectively better but it is probably due to remastering involved rather that MQA itself.

In terms of market adoption, it seems to have lost some traction. Franky I do not see the real need as we do have adequate bandwith generally to use high res uncompressed.

I think MQA is a complex subject, made more complex because MQA as a company has struggled to adequately convey a clear and consistent message to the consumer. Right now I think MQA is at risk of losing the audiophile consumer. We will have to see how important that turns out to be.

Here are some unstructured thoughts and questions.

- We are not the customer. The customers are the big labels, streaming companies and DAC manufacturers. Ultimately the labels will decide it's fait. The big labels have always given the music lover what they want, which is not necessarily what we want!

- The big labels are signed up, ESS just announced native MQA Rendering in their new DAC chips. According to rumor Dezer will announce this year. MQA appears to be doing alright at the business end of things.

- We can't assume it's a choice between uncompressed hi-res or MQA. Many labels and artists refuse to release their whole master quality catalog. Red Book or MQA could be the best they ever offer.

- MQA can be delivered via downloads and physical media, but the focus is streaming. If your subscription is not up to date it's irrelevant if your stream has DRM.

- Is a DRM wrapped MQA stream better than a watermarked Red Book track?

- Is MQA DRM?

- Over the last few years there has been some concern of the provenance of some hi-res music i.e. was it upsampled Red Book or worse. MQA potentially solves some of that problem. DRM to the rescue?

- Today, MQA costs no more than Red Book streaming.

- MQA is becoming more flexible. At the beginning room correction wasn't possible. Now it is.

- It's lossy, even though the MQA told us it wasn't.

- If I listen to the same track twice do I hear it exactly the same on the second play. I'm pretty sure my analog ears aren't bit perfect;-) I'm a music lover first, audiophile second.

- When I listen to music, format is the last thing I think about. I don't think, "I'm going to listen to hi-res", but I do say "I feel like listening to Led Zepplin"

- The fact it's lossy doesn't stop me from listening to Radio Paradise. Quality reproduction is important, but it's not the most important part of my enjoyment.

- Using Roon 1.5 on my main system (Speakers) and Tidal Desktop/AudioQuest DragonFly Red on my computer (Speakers and Headphones), I'm hearing what everyone else is hearing. Some great, some ok, and some bad i.e. I prefer the Red Book version.

- So far what I've heard doesn't leave me with the feeling I need to go and buy a new MQA capable DAC for my main system.

- The fragmented nature of modern recording leads to tracks being assembled from parts recorded in a variety of formats. Very few bands can afford to spend a month in an expensive studio anymore. A producer friend recently told me that many modern bands are recorded at lower quality than 20 years ago.

- If MQA is successful, will less music be released in hi-res. Probably. It's also possible, probable even that a lot of that music would never been released in hi-res, irrespective of MQA's existence.

- MQA has to deal with the industry as it is, for all the good and bad that implies.

- Open is good proprietary is bad. I have some sympathy with that view, but being a proprietary licence encumbered format didn't stop mp3 becoming ubiquitous. Everyone wants to get paid. I would have a much bigger issue with this if MQA was primarily a download format.

I was initially quite optimistic about MQA. For the first time in years the industry was thinking about the quality of it's product. Some of what I've heard is great. Some of it not so much. A bit like most recordings! I still think it's too early to tell if MQA will be succesful, mostly because it's all about the labels and very little to do with whether or not we like it. With the resurgence of vinyl, and the increasing popularity of cassettes, the only thing I'm going to confidently predicts is that the CD will make a comeback;-)

cdboy posted:

Diverse opinions already.

As the perceived effect is could well vary according to the quality or transparency of the system used, reported impressions are somewhat meaningless without identifying the system, unless already given in people’s profiles.

if you listen closely to the transients, you will hear the issues..... 

French Rooster posted:

jmtennapel posted:

MQA Albums are remastered as I have understood, which could explain the different sound to your own rips. Hard to pinpoint what is remaster and what is MQA.

If I compare on my headphones, through Tidal, both the MQA and non MQA mastered versions and my own rips, I prefer my own rips all of the time. Listening to MQA makes me tired in the longer run. I listen to rock and classical, and it is a consistent experience.

It is great though that Tidal offers you the option. I might not like it, but others do.

what is your dac or streamer if i may ask ?

The comparison with my headphones is done on my iMac. The Tidal software can play MQA on a computer.

French Rooster posted:

simes_pep posted:

Sonore UPnP Bridge runs on the same network, and behaves as a Roon Endpoint, but presents the stream to the Ethernet input of the Naim player. So the Roon Core is running on the NUC, controlled by a Roon Remote, with the Bridge selected as a playback zone, and the Naim sees a WAV stream (also can see a native DSD64 stream from dsf files too).

So I have some MQA (44.1k, 48k, 96k & 192k) encoded files in my NAS Library, served by Roon with 1st unfold performed in the Roon Core, and then MQA Masters streamed over the internet. That gives me the 4 different paths to try. Actually there is 5, playback of the local MQA through the Naim App via the UPnP server, but these are only seen as 24/48 files, without any decoding.

All very interesting and on occasion all having merit, but with access to a large library of MQA material. But at the same over 50% of my local 80k tracks are also HiRes.

Does that provide you with any further direction, [@mention:56335183628232089]?

nds streaming mqa files from tidal is not really streaming mqa, because it has no mqa dac.  So are you really sure to listen to mqa files with your system, or just using roon and his presentation with the help of sonore micro rendu, but not really decoding mqa?    perhaps you are using another dac than the nds?

Definitely decoding MQA files streamed as Tidal Masters

so the Naim app & NDS front panel confirms that a 24/96 WAV stream is being played via the UPnP input. MQA unfolding being undertaken in the Roon Core, prior to the bridging to the NDS.

I have already posted screenshots of this in an earlier thread, which is here https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...upnp-bridge-into-nds

This thread was about how are people finding the MQA playback experience vs. local files (Redbook, HiRes) & streamed (Red book, TIdal Masters & HiRes), though a discussion on Qobuz’s Sublime+ subscription seems to be in another thread.

Simon

French Rooster posted:

Pev posted:

I listen to it on Tidal via Roon into a Nova so I only get the first unfold.

I am a huge fan - it makes the music sound better in comparison to my rips of the same albums. It's hard to nail down what "better" denotes but the words clarity and authority spring to mind. Listening to Live Dead (Grateful Dead) the other evening with a friend we heard an MQA version of St Stephen and then had to resort to a rip of The Eleven because you just can't have one without the other. My friend had no idea they were different codecs but spontaneously said "Who stuffed cotton wool in my ears?".  Until then I thought my Live Dead rip sounded damn fine and it still does, but I had to agree. It's not night and day but back to back MQA really shines.

All at no extra cost to me.  

the nova can decode mqa ?   i thought no naim streamer or dac could decode mqa.   

The Nova doesn't decode MQA though I believe the capability is there in the streaming section of the newer streaming products should Naim choose to implement it.

My Nova is a Roon endpoint and the latest Roon release performs the first MQA unfold and sends 24/192 (or other hi res depending on album) to the Nova which displays and plays it as such.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I have the impression the momentum in MQA has somewhat dissipated.... its kind of ended as a nich format like DSD but probably less impact on the market... I think most who are in the market for hidef audio probably don’t want to use a lossy codec with artefacts that assume psychoacoustically your brain ignores them... don’t get me wrong, it’s all very clever, but I think it’s technology looking for a market.

I have heard it with a software decoder into a DAC, it sounded ok and some tracks sounded rather fun, it seemingly sounded better on cheaper less resolving equipment... the better the equipment was I heard it on, the more artificial it sounded... I now use lossless HIdef, or 44.1/16 but I gave it a try.

Simes_Pep is convinced that he is listening to true mqa files with nds and sonore upnp bridge, using roon.  Is it possible ?   the nds has no mqa decoding dac, so for me it is impossible to listen really to mqa with the nds, even using roon and sonore.

French Rooster posted:

 

Simes_Pep is convinced that he is listening to true mqa files with nds and sonore upnp bridge, using roon.  Is it possible ?   the nds has no mqa decoding dac, so for me it is impossible to listen really to mqa with the nds, even using roon and sonore.

He just said Roon was doing the first unfold (i.e. software decoding), not that there was a hardware decode. There is a good explanation of MQA if you google MQA Decoding Explained or MQA first unfold.

That was my interpretation - and by definition not ‘restored to original master quality’ (ignoring artefacts).

William posted:

French Rooster posted:

 

Simes_Pep is convinced that he is listening to true mqa files with nds and sonore upnp bridge, using roon.  Is it possible ?   the nds has no mqa decoding dac, so for me it is impossible to listen really to mqa with the nds, even using roon and sonore.

He just said Roon was doing the first unfold (i.e. software decoding), not that there was a hardware decode. There is a good explanation of MQA if you google MQA Decoding Explained or MQA first unfold.

thanks, i understood now.  Not so easy to understand....