MQA - updated thoughts please

French Rooster posted:

William posted:

French Rooster posted:

 

Simes_Pep is convinced that he is listening to true mqa files with nds and sonore upnp bridge, using roon.  Is it possible ?   the nds has no mqa decoding dac, so for me it is impossible to listen really to mqa with the nds, even using roon and sonore.

He just said Roon was doing the first unfold (i.e. software decoding), not that there was a hardware decode. There is a good explanation of MQA if you google MQA Decoding Explained or MQA first unfold.

thanks, i understood now.  Not so easy to understand....

Is this not the playback path you have available, with a Roon core, a Sonore product able to run the UPnP Bridge and a Naim network player?

There are a number of threads on the Roon forum covering the 1.5 release and use of the UPnP Bridge.

Thanks, Simon

simes_pep posted:

French Rooster posted:

William posted:

French Rooster posted:

 

Simes_Pep is convinced that he is listening to true mqa files with nds and sonore upnp bridge, using roon.  Is it possible ?   the nds has no mqa decoding dac, so for me it is impossible to listen really to mqa with the nds, even using roon and sonore.

He just said Roon was doing the first unfold (i.e. software decoding), not that there was a hardware decode. There is a good explanation of MQA if you google MQA Decoding Explained or MQA first unfold.

thanks, i understood now.  Not so easy to understand....

Is this not the playback path you have available, with a Roon core, a Sonore product able to run the UPnP Bridge and a Naim network player?

There are a number of threads on the Roon forum covering the 1.5 release and use of the UPnP Bridge.

Thanks, Simon

sorry, but personnaly i don’t see much interest in roon and adding tweaks as sonore to a high end streamer like nds is for me useless.  I am streaming hirez locally, stored on my unitserve, and i don’t need more.   If someone demonstrated me that roon and sonore can improve the sound quality of streaming with my nds, i will change my mind .   

I don’t criticize roon, but it is not on my taste, i don’t like to have propositions in listening music, and the facebook like interface is not for me too.  

Listening to some MQA right now via Roon and Tidal, sounds pretty good to me.

[@mention:56335183628232089] I am completely lost as to how Roon resembles Facebook in any way. But horses for courses I suppose. 

Pev posted:

French Rooster posted:

Pev posted:

I listen to it on Tidal via Roon into a Nova so I only get the first unfold.

I am a huge fan - it makes the music sound better in comparison to my rips of the same albums. It's hard to nail down what "better" denotes but the words clarity and authority spring to mind. Listening to Live Dead (Grateful Dead) the other evening with a friend we heard an MQA version of St Stephen and then had to resort to a rip of The Eleven because you just can't have one without the other. My friend had no idea they were different codecs but spontaneously said "Who stuffed cotton wool in my ears?".  Until then I thought my Live Dead rip sounded damn fine and it still does, but I had to agree. It's not night and day but back to back MQA really shines.

All at no extra cost to me.  

the nova can decode mqa ?   i thought no naim streamer or dac could decode mqa.   

The Nova doesn't decode MQA though I believe the capability is there in the streaming section of the newer streaming products should Naim choose to implement it.

My Nova is a Roon endpoint and the latest Roon release performs the first MQA unfold and sends 24/192 (or other hi res depending on album) to the Nova which displays and plays it as such.

You cant get 24/192 with software only it will decode to 24/94, you need MQA dac to get the full 24/192 MQA quality. 

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Listening to some MQA right now via Roon and Tidal, sounds pretty good to me.

[@mention:56335183628232089] I am completely lost as to how Roon resembles Facebook in any way. But horses for courses I suppose. 

facebook :  you can listen to this, you can listen to that....you can share what you listen to....

French Rooster posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Listening to some MQA right now via Roon and Tidal, sounds pretty good to me.

[@mention:56335183628232089] I am completely lost as to how Roon resembles Facebook in any way. But horses for courses I suppose. 

facebook :  you can listen to this, you can listen to that....you can share what you listen to....

It reminded me of Facebook as well - not resembling as such, but the whole “social media” aspect of sharing with “friends” and telling others what you’re listening too and vice versa, plus the constant prompts for things I might be interested in (actually 99% not).

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Listening to some MQA right now via Roon and Tidal, sounds pretty good to me.

[@mention:56335183628232089] I am completely lost as to how Roon resembles Facebook in any way. But horses for courses I suppose. 

facebook :  you can listen to this, you can listen to that....you can share what you listen to....

It reminded me of Facebook as well - not resembling as such, but the whole “social media” aspect of sharing with “friends” and telling others what you’re listening too and vice versa, plus the constant prompts for things I might be interested in (actually 99% not).

you have some kind of advertisings and you have to pay for that!   

GregW posted:

I think MQA is a complex subject, made more complex because MQA as a company has struggled to adequately convey a clear and consistent message to the consumer. Right now I think MQA is at risk of losing the audiophile consumer. We will have to see how important that turns out to be.

Here are some unstructured thoughts and questions.

- We are not the customer. The customers are the big labels, streaming companies and DAC manufacturers. Ultimately the labels will decide it's fait. The big labels have always given the music lover what they want, which is not necessarily what we want!

- The big labels are signed up, ESS just announced native MQA Rendering in their new DAC chips. According to rumor Dezer will announce this year. MQA appears to be doing alright at the business end of things.

- We can't assume it's a choice between uncompressed hi-res or MQA. Many labels and artists refuse to release their whole master quality catalog. Red Book or MQA could be the best they ever offer.

- MQA can be delivered via downloads and physical media, but the focus is streaming. If your subscription is not up to date it's irrelevant if your stream has DRM.

- Is a DRM wrapped MQA stream better than a watermarked Red Book track?

- Is MQA DRM?

- Over the last few years there has been some concern of the provenance of some hi-res music i.e. was it upsampled Red Book or worse. MQA potentially solves some of that problem. DRM to the rescue?

- Today, MQA costs no more than Red Book streaming.

- MQA is becoming more flexible. At the beginning room correction wasn't possible. Now it is.

- It's lossy, even though the MQA told us it wasn't.

- If I listen to the same track twice do I hear it exactly the same on the second play. I'm pretty sure my analog ears aren't bit perfect;-) I'm a music lover first, audiophile second.

- When I listen to music, format is the last thing I think about. I don't think, "I'm going to listen to hi-res", but I do say "I feel like listening to Led Zepplin"

- The fact it's lossy doesn't stop me from listening to Radio Paradise. Quality reproduction is important, but it's not the most important part of my enjoyment.

- Using Roon 1.5 on my main system (Speakers) and Tidal Desktop/AudioQuest DragonFly Red on my computer (Speakers and Headphones), I'm hearing what everyone else is hearing. Some great, some ok, and some bad i.e. I prefer the Red Book version.

- So far what I've heard doesn't leave me with the feeling I need to go and buy a new MQA capable DAC for my main system.

- The fragmented nature of modern recording leads to tracks being assembled from parts recorded in a variety of formats. Very few bands can afford to spend a month in an expensive studio anymore. A producer friend recently told me that many modern bands are recorded at lower quality than 20 years ago.

- If MQA is successful, will less music be released in hi-res. Probably. It's also possible, probable even that a lot of that music would never been released in hi-res, irrespective of MQA's existence.

- MQA has to deal with the industry as it is, for all the good and bad that implies.

- Open is good proprietary is bad. I have some sympathy with that view, but being a proprietary licence encumbered format didn't stop mp3 becoming ubiquitous. Everyone wants to get paid. I would have a much bigger issue with this if MQA was primarily a download format.

I was initially quite optimistic about MQA. For the first time in years the industry was thinking about the quality of it's product. Some of what I've heard is great. Some of it not so much. A bit like most recordings! I still think it's too early to tell if MQA will be succesful, mostly because it's all about the labels and very little to do with whether or not we like it. With the resurgence of vinyl, and the increasing popularity of cassettes, the only thing I'm going to confidently predicts is that the CD will make a comeback;-)

Some interesting points here [@mention:39439408762366587]

- We are not the customer. The customers are the big labels, streaming companies and DAC manufacturers. Ultimately the labels will decide it's fait. The big labels have always given the music lover what they want, which is not necessarily what we want!

It is very clear that the success of a format is completely controlled by the labels, be it CD, Vinyl, DVD-A, SACD or even HiRes downloads, which are still a niche market offering. Can you still buy tracks through iTunes?

Streaming, intitially via the ‘leaked’ MP3 format & encoder is the only time the Labels have not been in control, so they are not going to allow that type of situation to reoccur, if they can help it. Please they are desparately seeking a way of selling your music to you, just as they did, for the mass market, from vinyl to CD.

- The big labels are signed up, ESS just announced native MQA Rendering in their new DAC chips. According to rumor Dezer will announce this year. MQA appears to be doing alright at the business end of things.

That’s interesting, I wonder if Naim considered using the Sabre ESS Chipset in the newer products instead of sticking with the Brown Burr DAC chips we have in the NDS, NDX etc. However in the future MQA hardware level decoding may be a default provision in the DAC.

- We can't assume it's a choice between uncompressed hi-res or MQA. Many labels and artists refuse to release their whole master quality catalog. Red Book or MQA could be the best they ever offer.

You have to remember for the mass market, streaming of lossy formats at 256 or 320 kbps is the way they access music now, never mind Red book quality, so they really been dumbed down, and this may be all they get or want.

- MQA can be delivered via downloads and physical media, but the focus is streaming. If your subscription is not up to date it's irrelevant if your stream has DRM.

The MQA physical format is just in Japan isn’t it - could be an interesting  revival of disc spinning?

- Is a DRM wrapped MQA stream better than a watermarked Red Book track?

- Is MQA DRM?

- Over the last few years there has been some concern of the provenance of some hi-res music i.e. was it upsampled Red Book or worse. MQA potentially solves some of that problem. DRM to the rescue?

- Today, MQA costs no more than Red Book streaming.

- MQA is becoming more flexible. At the beginning room correction wasn't possible. Now it is.

- It's lossy, even though the MQA told us it wasn't.

- If I listen to the same track twice do I hear it exactly the same on the second play. I'm pretty sure my analog ears aren't bit perfect;-) I'm a music lover first, audiophile second.

- When I listen to music, format is the last thing I think about. I don't think, "I'm going to listen to hi-res", but I do say "I feel like listening to Led Zepplin"

- The fact it's lossy doesn't stop me from listening to Radio Paradise. Quality reproduction is important, but it's not the most important part of my enjoyment.

- Using Roon 1.5 on my main system (Speakers) and Tidal Desktop/AudioQuest DragonFly Red on my computer (Speakers and Headphones), I'm hearing what everyone else is hearing. Some great, some ok, and some bad i.e. I prefer the Red Book version.

- So far what I've heard doesn't leave me with the feeling I need to go and buy a new MQA capable DAC for my main system.

- The fragmented nature of modern recording leads to tracks being assembled from parts recorded in a variety of formats. Very few bands can afford to spend a month in an expensive studio anymore. A producer friend recently told me that many modern bands are recorded at lower quality than 20 years ago.

- If MQA is successful, will less music be released in hi-res. Probably. It's also possible, probable even that a lot of that music would never been released in hi-res, irrespective of MQA's existence.

- MQA has to deal with the industry as it is, for all the good and bad that implies.

- Open is good proprietary is bad. I have some sympathy with that view, but being a proprietary licence encumbered format didn't stop mp3 becoming ubiquitous. Everyone wants to get paid. I would have a much bigger issue with this if MQA was primarily a download format.

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Listening to some MQA right now via Roon and Tidal, sounds pretty good to me.

[@mention:56335183628232089] I am completely lost as to how Roon resembles Facebook in any way. But horses for courses I suppose. 

facebook :  you can listen to this, you can listen to that....you can share what you listen to....

It reminded me of Facebook as well - not resembling as such, but the whole “social media” aspect of sharing with “friends” and telling others what you’re listening too and vice versa, plus the constant prompts for things I might be interested in (actually 99% not).

you have some kind of advertisings and you have to pay for that!   

There is no advertising at all, as for sharing features they are limited and very much hidden away so no idea what your on about  there, whats so different about posting on this forum about what your listening to. There is no need to use them if you don't want to. I haven't touched them in 2 years of having Roon and tbh wouldn't even know they existed as it has zero impact on how it all works or interacts with my collection. What you see in Roon is all about your music collection nothing more and allows you to delve in to all the artists and recordings in detail if you wish. Its helped me discover other artists and albums i did not know existed from collaborators on tracks. no other software has managed to do this for me that is made up of my own music. As I said horses for courses but music to me is about discovery and enjoying it an inspiring others to try some thing new.

Anyway back to MQA there a plenty of other threads about Roon.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Listening to some MQA right now via Roon and Tidal, sounds pretty good to me.

[@mention:56335183628232089] I am completely lost as to how Roon resembles Facebook in any way. But horses for courses I suppose. 

facebook :  you can listen to this, you can listen to that....you can share what you listen to....

It reminded me of Facebook as well - not resembling as such, but the whole “social media” aspect of sharing with “friends” and telling others what you’re listening too and vice versa, plus the constant prompts for things I might be interested in (actually 99% not).

you have some kind of advertisings and you have to pay for that!   

There is no advertising at all, as for sharing features they are limited and very much hidden away so no idea what your on about  there, whats so different about posting on this forum about what your listening to. There is no need to use them if you don't want to. I haven't touched them in 2 years of having Roon and tbh wouldn't even know they existed as it has zero impact on how it all works or interacts with my collection. What you see in Roon is all about your music collection nothing more and allows you to delve in to all the artists and recordings in detail if you wish. Its helped me discover other artists and albums i did not know existed from collaborators on tracks. no other software has managed to do this for me that is made up of my own music. As I said horses for courses but music to me is about discovery and enjoying it an inspiring others to try some thing new.

Anyway back to MQA there a plenty of other threads about Roon.

Well, when I tokk actrial, I felt atat all the suggestions etc were being thrust at me. If that could becswirched off, or if someone is happy with it, I could see Roon being good for people who use Tidal, especially if they have their own collection, as it seems to blend seemlessly, but otherwise I could see no benefit, so asI have no interest in Tidal and dislike the social media -like feel it wasn’t for me.

mqa are more on my interests, but unfortunately the nds can’t decode them.  Perhaps one day naim streamers will incorporate mqa decoding and i will probably using more tidal than today.

As to discover new artists or collabolators on tracks, or new albums in the same kind of music, i am using regularly the excellent site » all music « .

Thanks all. Do those that have heard a full MQA capable DAC think Naim should consider the technology? Or are we happy streaming HiDef files (our own files or from online sources) without having to fold/unfold MQA? Is there a benefit or otherwise to Naim to consider MQA?

I like MQA, when I hear MQA through Audirvana, I definitely feel that MQA adds an extra dimension to the music, the bass is tighter, tauter, more instrument separations, and most important for me, it seems more musical.I sometimes I pay more attention to, feel more foot tap induced to what I am listening to, and incidentally I find out later that these albums  are MQA encoded.

I would certainly like to be able to listen to unfolded MQA files from Tidal, but unfortunately I can't. The streamer I use in my main system is a Linn Klimax DS/1, and not only does Linn not currently support MQA, it has stated that it will not support MQA in the future. Further, Tidal's 'MQA Masters' library cannot even be viewed or accessed in the integrated Tidal section of the Linn Kazoo app.   

I thought the latest version of the Linn firmware added Roon Ready support, so that your Linn streamer can act as a Roon Endpoint.

My ability to play MQA Master with 1st unfold, is a function of Roon Core release 1.5 and not anything supported on the Naim player.

cdboy posted:

Thanks all. Do those that have heard a full MQA capable DAC think Naim should consider the technology? Or are we happy streaming HiDef files (our own files or from online sources) without having to fold/unfold MQA? Is there a benefit or otherwise to Naim to consider MQA?

 

Well Naim are very fond of the Texas Instruments PCM 1704K DAC, and I believe they use it the ND555 as well  which is PCM fed. Therefore if MQA floats your boat then use a software DSP decoder - they can do the first level of processing (what MQA calls 'unfolding') and you can then feed your processed PCM into your DAC such as your NDS/NDX/ND555 etc.. simple really. All a so called MQA DAC is is a device with this DSP preprocessing built into the packaged product and through - I suspect a commercial licensing model rather than anything technical - enable such devices to expand the DSP processing further (ie unfold further to 4x etc)

S 

But there is more to MQA than just upsampling.

Tale a look at https://www.stereophile.com/co...a-tested-part-2-fold

https://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-reviewed

The DAC certificate also introduces DAC profiles which enable further DSP for that hardware.

“At the other end of the chain, MQA meets the end user and his/her DAC, inside which the MQA code (software) sits on an XMOS chip. Its job is not only to unfold (decode) the hi-res according to the sample rate limits of the DAC chip but also to optimise the DAC chip’s sound quality by applying a pre-emptive corrective filter to the digital signal prior to conversion to analogue (rendering). This the main reason why the MQA code must sit within I2S reach of the DAC chip – i.e inside the DAC box – and why its effectiveness would be diluted/nullified if placed in an upstream streamer.”

From https://darko.audio/2016/06/an...h-mqa-sounds-better/

Also listen to Bob Stewart https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=...amp;feature=youtu.be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BrgjycGhoSM

Simes-pep - i know in theory MQA has more to it than compressed high definition, but the effect of DSP profiling (or more accurately in my opinion DAC reconstruction filtering) will only actually truly benefit if the original ADC filter at the recording studio matches that profile. Remastering MQA that has already gone through an ADC filter profile - ie its its already in a digital domain - won't really cut it - all it will do is got some extent lock you into to an MQA interpretation of the sound.

I was discussing with Rob Watts recently - and he suggested to which I agreed - it is a big limiting factor in the industry right now - as there are only a relatively small number of studio ADC devices used world wide - although he said he had a few projects in that regard but kept it close.  We did discuss MQA in passing and concluded its kind of missing the point in this regard because of the lack of encapsulating the end to end chain.

But as I say I believe MQA remastering is missing the point as its a bit like capturing some dead piece of nature in amber, for the real benefit one would need to get  the filter reconstruction mapping matched right across the audio chain, not just repurposing to produce a specific master.

Also remember, not unlike the RIAA preamp compensation for phono, MQA requires a filter to compensate for frequency errors in the 'unfolding' reconstruction process and this can be used to slightly boost and enhance the sound to make more aesthetically pleasing - a bit like a hitec tone control .. nothing wrong with this - but if this is your preference there are probably more effective ways of achieving this.

Thanks to those who shared their thoughts on MQA. I also think the amount of replies (relatively small) tells me that Naim folk are not watching this MQA debate all that much, if at all. Interesting times, given the push from the inventors and the record companies. 

Personally I prefer ownership to streaming and tend to own the files in the resolution I want. Or I play vinyl ... Thanks again.

Well, I am a watcher, as well as Naim owner that is added the Roon capability for MQA 1st unfold for either locally stored files or those streamed from Tidal.
I have a number of MQA files stored in my library, as noted in this thread or my other, re the ability to unfold and stream as a UPnP stream to my NDS, preserving the Network player functionality and not just as a S/PDIF feed DAC.
Ultimately I prefer to own too, and Tidal is for exploration as well as when away from home via the iOS App and Win Desktop App.

Simon.

I have been watching the MQA debate for some time and am generally just struck by the ill nature of the participants.

I did find the Archimgo article on CA illuminating:
https://www.computeraudiophile...s-and-cautions-r701/

My thought had been to listen to it and judge for myself in due course. This position was changed for me by a couple of thoughts. I was explaining to one of my daughters how organisations have longer horizons and memories than individuals, as an example I used Sunday Trading. Many workers were pleased to supplement their income by working Sundays, this quickly evaporated as new workers had this written into the employment contracts. This made me consider MQA, and the current 'free' 9624 on Tidal. Is it so far fetched to see this throttled over time? Additionally I HATE moving from open to closed formats.

For me the simple fact is that I am getting great sound quality for 16/44.1 and so have no wish to move.

M