CD-r from Amazon? Is this the future? (Bentley Caldwell)

I was ready to track this down and buy the CD when I read all the great reviews by forumites on the "What are you listening to......"  thread.

When I realised that Amazon (and all sellers it appears) only sell CD-r's, I said forget it. CD-r's have only a limited lifespan in my experience, so I want 'real' Cd's that will last a long time.

The artist and the label have lost a sale, and a lot more than just mine, I guess.

I am a bit confused that artist and label do not offer real CD's considering that the CD market, though getting smaller, is still enormous. Don't they want to make money ?

It seems that Amazon have been doing this for years, mainly in respect of out of print and hard to find albums.

I ordered the album via Amazon UK, fully aware of the notification that, when ordered from Amazon.com, an "on demand" CD-r would be arriving, though one has to search the small print to find the information, and the main item description refers to "Music CD"

In the case of this particular one, the package arriving here had been posted in UK, rather than The States, so why Amazon are unable to supply a genuine CD is something of a mystery, unless the album is not on general release.

Anyway, it has now been ripped and sounds fine, comparable with Tidal, so I won't be returning it, though I do remain slightly miffed at being charged full price for a CD-r.

dave marshall posted:

 

Anyway, it has now been ripped and sounds fine, comparable with Tidal, so I won't be returning it, though I do remain slightly miffed at being charged full price for a CD-r.

I guess if it's produced on demand then production costs will be higher per disc than a run of conventional CD copies.

Can't see it on Qobuz, but also seems to be available for MP3 or FLAC purchase via TIDAL though at £17.99 for I assume CD quality FLAC:

http://tidal.com/gb/store/album/83624227

I am guessing this is a newish artist with his first release and possibility not signed to a label yet, so production (of the physical CD) and distribution is a bit makeshift. But I could be wrong here.

Although the CD-R of The Place That I Call Home sounds a little better than full fat Tidal to me, the overall SQ is OK, not the best. I wonder if this is because the recording and mastering were done on a budget or if the transfer to CD-R is not optimal.

Such a shame that a superb album like this has not been given the care and attention to SQ it so richly deserves. It is still a wonderful album though and it will be getting many listens in this household.

Whether or not CD-R transfers on demand is a future trend, I have no idea. If it is, I think it is a retrograde step unless SQ from CD-R issues can be improved and carefully controlled.

It would be interesting for someone to compare the purchasable FLAC from Tidal or elsewhere if available?

Not listened yet, but have just found it on Apple Music.

Fot those who like it he is touring the UK as we speak:

http://www.bentleycaldwell.com

UK TOUR

JUNE 1ST 

NORDEN ARTS CENTER: MAIDENHEAD

8:00PM | TICKETS HERE

JUNE 2ND

THE ROYAL OAK: ECCLESHALL STAFFORDSHIRE

7:30PM | TICKETS HERE

JUNE 3RD

THE WIGHTMAN THEATER: SHEWSBURY

7:30PM | TICKETS HERE

JUNE 5TH

KITCHEN GARDEN CAFE: BIRMINGHAM

7:30PM | TICKETS HERE

JUNE 6TH

THE GREEN NOTE: LONDON

8:00PM | TICKETS HERE

Sounded great until America, The Beautiful........so many protest songs on recent albums, but this was too much on the AirPods.

Alley Cat posted:

Sounded great until America, The Beautiful........so many protest songs on recent albums, but this was too much on the AirPods.

Yes, I just skip that track. Bentley still has a bit to learn.

nigelb posted:

I am guessing this is a newish artist with his first release and possibility not signed to a label yet, so production (of the physical CD) and distribution is a bit makeshift. But I could be wrong here.

Although the CD-R of The Place That I Call Home sounds a little better than full fat Tidal to me, the overall SQ is OK, not the best. I wonder if this is because the recording and mastering were done on a budget or if the transfer to CD-R is not optimal.

Such a shame that a superb album like this has not been given the care and attention to SQ it so richly deserves. It is still a wonderful album though and it will be getting many listens in this household.

Whether or not CD-R transfers on demand is a future trend, I have no idea. If it is, I think it is a retrograde step unless SQ from CD-R issues can be improved and carefully controlled.

Hi sfirst release Nigel was an EP which was a cd-r as well but the idfference was it was a Taiyo Yuden disc so of much higher quality (not so prone to being unplayabel if scratched).

My concern with the CD-R format would be the longevity of the disk. A critical issue for physical media users like me that still faithfully enjoy CDs bought in the 1980s (that's 30+ years ago). Could a commercially produced CD-R disc degrade to a degree that it fails to play in my CDP after only 5-10 years on the shelf?

I’ve bought a few CD-Rs at gigs and a couple from The Burning Shed, most stopped playing after a few years. One to rip to a hard drive and back up, you can always burn another copy. I didn’t of course and the bands in question are no more alas.

nigelb posted:

I am guessing this is a newish artist with his first release and possibility not signed to a label yet, so production (of the physical CD) and distribution is a bit makeshift. But I could be wrong here.

Although the CD-R of The Place That I Call Home sounds a little better than full fat Tidal to me, the overall SQ is OK, not the best. I wonder if this is because the recording and mastering were done on a budget or if the transfer to CD-R is not optimal.

Such a shame that a superb album like this has not been given the care and attention to SQ it so richly deserves. It is still a wonderful album though and it will be getting many listens in this household.

Whether or not CD-R transfers on demand is a future trend, I have no idea. If it is, I think it is a retrograde step unless SQ from CD-R issues can be improved and carefully controlled.

I’ve had my copy for a week now, and find the SQ absolutely fine. I’d be interested to hear a detailed explanation of where you feel it falls down, Nigel. I totally agree with your ‘superb album’ comment!

Tim

Timmo1341 posted:

nigelb posted:

I am guessing this is a newish artist with his first release and possibility not signed to a label yet, so production (of the physical CD) and distribution is a bit makeshift. But I could be wrong here.

Although the CD-R of The Place That I Call Home sounds a little better than full fat Tidal to me, the overall SQ is OK, not the best. I wonder if this is because the recording and mastering were done on a budget or if the transfer to CD-R is not optimal.

Such a shame that a superb album like this has not been given the care and attention to SQ it so richly deserves. It is still a wonderful album though and it will be getting many listens in this household.

Whether or not CD-R transfers on demand is a future trend, I have no idea. If it is, I think it is a retrograde step unless SQ from CD-R issues can be improved and carefully controlled.

I’ve had my copy for a week now, and find the SQ absolutely fine. I’d be interested to hear a detailed explanation of where you feel it falls down, Nigel. I totally agree with your ‘superb album’ comment!

Tim

Dont get me wrong, the SQ is not bad, it is just not as good as it could be. But there are many other albums from very famous bands that I would describe in the same way.

With the Bentley Caldwell album, there is a slight dullness to the SQ, and I emphasise the word slight. Separation of instruments and vocals could be better and Bentley's vocals could be a tad better defined. But I am being really picky here and I only made these observations when I put on a superb recording after listening to The Place That I call Home. As I say my mild criticism of the SQ will not stop me playing this wonderful album.

Regarding the comments about the longevity of CD-Rs, then I think this could be a real problem for those that only have CD players and cannot rip to a hard drive for streaming, particularly those albums that are treasured.

nigelb posted:

Regarding the comments about the longevity of CD-Rs, then I think this could be a real problem for those that only have CD players and cannot rip to a hard drive for streaming, particularly those albums that are treasured.

Indeed, so for CDP'ers like me, is there any particular notation to look for when buying modern CDs? Will a site like Amazon state the disk is CD-R format? When buying in-person, is there any text on the on the exterior of the CD packaging?

Scary to think that purchasing a new music CD is now intended strictly for near-term use, essentially ripping. When contemplating buying an album as vinyl versus CD, CD-R copies would be a relevant consideration for physical media users.

There is nothing wrong with CD-R per se, but there are more variabilities compared to pressed CD, but physically and low level encoding  they can be RedBook compliant if the length does not exceed 70 minutes. (But even some pressed discs exceed this length).

The real variable is the dye used and the protective varnish like layer. The most stable to UV dye is Azo dye, and is natively dark blue, however many manufacturers, I understand, colour the dye to disguise it from the less UV stable dyes such as the Super Cyanine based dyes which are natively mostly green. Therefore colour is not a reliable indicator of dye used any more.

So if you use CD-Rs keep out of direct sunlight.... and they should then last as long as pressed CDs if it’s a CD-R with modern dyes. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There is nothing wrong with CD-R per se, but there are more variabilities compared to pressed CD, but physically and low level encoding  they can be RedBook compliant if the length does not exceed 70 minutes. (But even some pressed discs exceed this length).

The real variable is the dye used and the protective varnish like layer. The most stable to UV dye is Azo dye, and is natively dark blue, however many manufacturers, I understand, colour the dye to disguise it from the less UV stable dyes such as the Super Cyanine based dyes which are natively mostly green. Therefore colour is not a reliable indicator of dye used any more.

So if you use CD-Rs keep out of direct sunlight.... and they should then last as long as pressed CDs if it’s a CD-R with modern dyes. 

That's why I always advocate using Taiyo Yuden discs Simon as they use Azu dye and are possibly the best on the market.

joerand posted:

nigelb posted:

Regarding the comments about the longevity of CD-Rs, then I think this could be a real problem for those that only have CD players and cannot rip to a hard drive for streaming, particularly those albums that are treasured.

Indeed, so for CDP'ers like me, is there any particular notation to look for when buying modern CDs? Will a site like Amazon state the disk is CD-R format? When buying in-person, is there any text on the on the exterior of the CD packaging?

Scary to think that purchasing a new music CD is now intended strictly for near-term use, essentially ripping. When contemplating buying an album as vinyl versus CD, CD-R copies would be a relevant consideration for physical media users.

SIS had answered the technical stuff. Regarding the seller declaring if the disc is a CD-R or not, the river certainly did on the Bentley Caldwell album but I missed it originally because it was stated in small italic font at the very bottom of the web page. As the river source CDs from so many sellers, I guess there is no guarantee that the format will be specified at the time of purchase. Even if it were a legal requirement to declare that the format is CD-R, compliance is no guarantee.

I have looked closely at the Bentley Caldwell CD and booklet (which is crap BTW) and cannot see CD-R stated anywhere.

Best advice is look carefully for the format when buying on-line, keep all CDs away from light as SIS suggests and copy those very special albums to a more stable CD-R disc as Ewemon suggests.

I wonder what does Bentley think of all this or does he even know?

Basically there are people who want to buy his music and are being put off by this Cd-r issue. 

Ah sure, let’s get all modern here, I’ve tweeted this thread link to him, let’s see what / if he replies  

.sjb

Sloop John B posted:

I wonder what does Bentley think of all this or does he even know?

Basically there are people who want to buy his music and are being put off by this Cd-r issue. 

 

I’m sure he does. He probably burns them himself.

I have 4 or 5 CDR albums released by unknown/obscure artist. They don’t have record deals, hence aren’t able to release material on proper CD’s. Producing and selling CDR’s to fans at concerts, on their website or amazon seems quite acceptable to me.

Me thinks Bentley won't be burning his own CD-Rs for long.

Sloop John B posted:

I wonder what does Bentley think of all this or does he even know?

Basically there are people who want to buy his music and are being put off by this Cd-r issue. 

 

He'll probably see it as hi-fi snobbery 

I don't see it as an issue - if it's the best you can get (though there is purchasable FLAC on Tidal), and you enjoy the music then you might as well buy it.

Should his career really take off then I'd imagine in time you may see formal CD issues of his back catalogue anyway.

Who knows, those original CD-Rs might even be more valuable.

They didn't rise to any kind of greatness but I recall buying cassette based albums of several fledgling groups when I was a lad - the music was what mattered if you enjoyed it (tape hiss and all), and there are a few I'm sad I let someone borrow never to be seen again, with no way to get a copy in today's digital world.

It’s worth remembering CD-Rs are proper CDs... it’s all down to production run quantity whether pressed or burned CDs are appropriate. Pressed (or replicated) CDs are produced with a glass master and then replicated by stamping them out from the master ... and is only appropriate for large production runs. Burned CDs (using CD-R) are written each disc at a time... it’s a slower process and prefereable for a short production run where the cost of producing a glass master and replication processing of the  disc is not appropriate... However both are valid CDs as they will (should) conform to the Red Book format standard which is the main consideration.