Cryo-treatment and the test of time

yeti42 posted:

joerand posted:

yeti42 posted:

Does the insulation around a wire being in a crysaline form rather than amorphous give better sound? F***ed if I know but Naim claim the directionality of A5 comes when the insulation is applied.

Not disputing anything you've said, but I'd relish a citation on Naim's directionality with insulation claim. Anything I've read says a wire's directionality comes from when it is drawn through the die. On the other hand, when you consider the process of cable rolling onto a reel, the application of insulation from the reverse direction makes sense. Then again, it's just a matter of which direction you apply the labelling on the cable insulation.

Only an indirect one I'm afraid but from this very forum.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...194#1566878607773194

 

 

Copying the URL doesn't seem to work so try this.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?s...Hbp9zG--U8b8cTSDZcjP

yeti42 posted:

yeti42 posted:

joerand posted:

yeti42 posted:

Does the insulation around a wire being in a crysaline form rather than amorphous give better sound? F***ed if I know but Naim claim the directionality of A5 comes when the insulation is applied.

Not disputing anything you've said, but I'd relish a citation on Naim's directionality with insulation claim. Anything I've read says a wire's directionality comes from when it is drawn through the die. On the other hand, when you consider the process of cable rolling onto a reel, the application of insulation from the reverse direction makes sense. Then again, it's just a matter of which direction you apply the labelling on the cable insulation.

Only an indirect one I'm afraid but from this very forum.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...194#1566878607773194

 

 

Copying the URL doesn't seem to work so try this.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?s...Hbp9zG--U8b8cTSDZcjP

 

 

 

Richard if you don't like the ggogle link can you come up with one to the original quote?

When a few of us recently were at the Naim Factory recently t was explained that Roy George was not interested in the directionality based on crystals etc....only based on listening tests to the cable and then assigning the directionality to give the end user the best sound. Apparently, some of the science of crystalline theory etc and listening tests do not always agree.

You are all correct.  Naim (Roy) do indeed listen to each batch of cable before directionality is determined.

And, Julian posted this on the original Naim forum, regarding cable directionality;

Date: April 17, 1999 05:33 AM
Author: julian vereker
Subject: direction

Here follows a cut & paste from an earlier post of mine. "I can't tell
you why cables sound different one way round to the other, but I do
know when the 'directionality' happens in manufacture.

It doesn't seem to matter how the bundle (of copper) is drawn, single
direction or mixed direction, but as soon as the insulation is
extruded onto the bundle, the directionality is established. This
means that one can mark the insulation and it will always be the right
way round.

I suspect that the hot plastic insulation anneals the copper in some
way, and this affects the crystaline structure.

But all our attempts, over many years, have failed to find any
measurement to show the directionality or indeed whether one cable
will sound better than another (other than the obvious - resistance,
capacitance and inductance)

Maybe someone out there knows?"

I am not sure about being an ex Physicist, I would have thought 'Once
a Physicist always a Physicist'. However one thing that is often
missed by the 'profesionals' is that audio electronics design is the
most difficult discipline of all - one has to design for 10 octaves
and 130dB at the same time - a huge envelope, and much larger than any
other area of electronics endeavor.

julian

Thanks Richard, a nice summary from the great man himself.

Just to qualify, I think JV was specifically referring to directionality of the speaker cable - IIRC NACA5 - when he wrote what he did.  

Richard, I appreciate you digging up that quote; however, there is a juxtaposition in your response. Julian claims directionality is established as soon as the insulation is extruded onto the bundle, yet you say Naim (Roy) do indeed listen to each batch of cable before directionality is determined. Why the effort to listen if JV was correct?

Presumably once they decide, the Naim text is stamped on the cable. I don't see any contradiction. They feel something about the insulating process causes directionality but not necessarily the same directionality each time and have acknowledged this goes against the "known" physics of the process.

Other things can affect directionality too that are more simple. Many RCA interconnects have the shield common to the return at only one end (amp end). 

Atlas Cables make a fairly big deal on their interconnect packaging that they think directionality is nonsense and that none of their cables are directional. Not sure I agree but on the other hand, I think they make very decent cables.

Going back to cryo, I suppose if one is inclined they can take a newly run in cable and treat it and compare to one treated years ago. The topic is clearly not cut and dried. If it was, all manufacturers would be doing it to their gear in the factory and they aren't. That doesn't necessarily mean it is nonsense either but clearly the jury is out.

I've read (here and elsewhere) that regardless of labelled directionality a cable will establish its own directionality with time and use. If you install cable 'backwards' and notice it later, best just to leave it as is. In fact, with a newly cryo'd cable it shouldn't matter which direction you install it, right?

That is actually my understanding too @joerand . In fact I believe cables are laid at hifi shows as early as possible before the opening day because their properties change depending on position and sitting there with a current on them. Moving a cable largely undoes all of this. It is also why an A/B cable comparison where you swap in new speaker cables can be fraught. I won't embarrass myself trying to explain the properties that change - there are far more qualified people on the forum for that.

The one you put in has not "settled" and when you put the old one back in, it has been "disturbed" and won't sound like it did before you took it out.

This is why, when it comes to cables, I prefer to take a dealer's word for it assuming they are familiar with both the electronics and the speakers. Certainly, when worked in the trade, we'd spend a large amount of time finding the right cable for various combinations so customer's did not have to.

joerand posted:

Richard, I appreciate you digging up that quote; however, there is a juxtaposition in your response. Julian claims directionality is established as soon as the insulation is extruded onto the bundle, yet you say Naim (Roy) do indeed listen to each batch of cable before directionality is determined. Why the effort to listen if JV was correct?

With regard to the speaker cable, because you can never take everything for granted. Sometimes suppliers make mistakes.  Someone new, a bad day, etc..  There was the time that the direction printing was applied the other way round.  Roy did his usual thing of cutting some lengths from some of the reels of the new batch, making them up into  cable assemblies and listening.  He quickly realised something was different and the new batch was quarantined.  An investigation eventually discovered that he was absolutely right.  The entire new batch had to be scrapped and a new batch made up.  I remember it was a big problem as for at least a month Naim couldn't supply distributors and dealers with NACA5.

As for other cabling that is used for other cable assemblies at Naim, the same process applies; cut off some representative samples, make up the assemblies, then listen. Better to trust your ears than anything or anyone else...

joerand posted:

A few years back, cryo-treatment for cables (and perhaps other components) was a hot topic here. The heat has waned. Naim never bought into the cryo hype, even with their Super Lumina. AV Options, Naim's only 3rd party authorized restoration center in the US, remains a proponent of cryo's benefits.

So for those that bought cryo'd cables or parts, was it money well-spent? Any one still considering cryo as a worthy upgrade?

Oh serendipity! I have literally just installed a Russ Andrews Deep Cryo Treadted (DCT) power cable to supply my 250.2. I did a direct comparison, after swiping contacts etc and I can tell you there is a definite improvement. A few years ago I installed a DCT cable of lesser quality than the non DCT cable it replaced on the HICap supplying the Prefix. Both power cables from the same manufacturer's range. The DCT was an enormous improvement: really easy to hear and the non DCT cable was sidelined to service the Armageddon where I could hear no discernible improvement or reduction in sound quality whichever power cable I used.

So, yes I think it makes a difference, but not on every piece of equipment. Maybe it's different on Earth? (don't get me started on earthing: a star too far).

Finding the perfect cable solution seems to be as elusive as the entrance to Vanaheimr!  (and something of which us mere Miðgarðers stand no chance).

Hi Joerand,

I installed an AVOptions UltraHD deep cryoed power strip, replacing a NANA “Noisetrapper” srtip, and the improvement was surprising, with a sound quality per dollar improvement well above “average” (compared to other changes I have made, including upgraded black boxes).  I also find their Tibea12 Plus power chords to sound quite good for the price.  I can not comment on the long term behavior of the cryo treatment, but you will likely get a good answer from Chris West.

You are welcomw to stop by for a listen, but then comparisons would not be practical.

Charlie

I had purchased three TibiaPlus12 Deep-Cryo AC Cable (power cords) for my NDX/SN2/TCPS.  

Top quality build power cords .......

When I first listened I immediately thought there was an improvement, and after a couple of weeks I was thinking the music was sounding sweet. Now after months have passed, and looking back I thought the music was sounding sweet before the change. 

So for the money spend on the power cords I am happy although I cannot truly describe the difference in the sound, just believe it was an improvement.

[@mention:1566878603891165] nice to hear from you! I replaced my NANA "Noisetrapper" with a basic Wiremold L10320 power strip. No regrets moving on from the Noisetrapper. Much appreciate your invitation for a listen. Are you currently demoing/testing any of your custom-built speakers? Your originals were outstanding for their rock-solid clarity and resolution. The coffee was darned good as well.

Joerand,

Same speakers, but significantly improved, and new subwoofers.  System is now Core, NDS/555PSDR, 282/Supercap, 300.  Sounds pretty good.

Would be great to see you again.

Charlie

Sounds like a date. I'll bring wine, won't drink any. You can ply me with your French-pressed coffee .

I've got your number.

Off topic, I know, but a good outcome is assured.  You can decide if the cryo stuff still works?

I used cryo'd power cables (Tibias) for a year.  They provided an immediate and obvious change - because of additional detail retrieval I declared it a success.  One year later, annoyed with constant listener fatigue from my system I switched back to (the original) non cryo'd power cables in a bid to isolate why it was no longer enjoyable.  The sound was no longer as clean but tonal warmth returned and listener fatigue banished.  I'm done with cryo.

I would have thought cryo treatment would ruin insulation....ie micro cracks etc . .

feeling_zen posted:

joerand posted:

Japtimscarlet posted:

Isn't there also some story that CDs also sound better

Indeed, the cryoing service I looked at claims CDs will benefit. Should I choose to do the treatment, I would throw in a few familiar CDs as they'd add little weight. I have a few duplicates so I could actually do a direct A/B comparison. My gut tells me that with my mid-level gear there might be little to discern. Maybe cryo money is best spent on upper-level gear?

Surely if they rip and match accurate rip database already, freezing them is a pile of crap.

Feezing has been theorised to contract any occlusions in the transparent layer causing less laser defraction. This is more empiracly suggested. Data discs that develop unreadable blocks can be frozen and the next day you 'might' get a clean read off the disc before it warms up again if played in a low humidity environment. Of course back when that was a common practice, optical drives were more flakey than they are today. But even back then, sticking discs in the freezer was a desperation measure. The good results after this are as likely to be caused by the thorough cleaning of the disc that went along with it.

I think a larger issue with cryo treatment of components and cables is:

1. Invalidates warranty

2. In a highly matched system like those pushed by Naim and Linn, it changes a parameter that the system wasn't designed with. Maybe that is better, only you can decide. But a cryo treated HiLine is no longer a HiLine.

Very true it is no longer a Hiline ,it is a COOL HiLine .

hastings posted:

I used cryo'd power cables (Tibias) for a year.  They provided an immediate and obvious change - because of additional detail retrieval I declared it a success.  One year later, annoyed with constant listener fatigue from my system I switched back to (the original) non cryo'd power cables in a bid to isolate why it was no longer enjoyable.  The sound was no longer as clean but tonal warmth returned and listener fatigue banished.  I'm done with cryo.

Cryo or not, I think power cables should be unplugged and plugged back every two or three months to clean up contacts.