Fancy Ethernet Cable-Experiment with the last 1 metre

Hi Kiwi Cat,

It is indeed an unexpected result given that the bigger part of the "data-transfer" is over a 35m standard UTP cable. Have you tried the SSA over both connectors of the wall-socket nearby your system? 

I have to cover a similar distance to get Internet to my system, but have chosen to do that via WiFi. It allows me to get the NAS and Switch really close to the system and therefor do not need to buy very long Ethernet cables. I also choose to invest in slightly better quality than average and use AudioQuest Cinnamon. The results were also very positive

Iver

Hi Kiwi Cat, yes this is really what I would expect. This is nothing to do with network data and the like, this is largely down to RF stub loading from the physical send pair synchronisation physical layer clock in your streamers network adapter... this will load and couple to the rest of your system in very small ways and Everson slightly affect the modulation of the ground plane and the like, I have shared on this forum an engineering design patter paper from Texas a Instruments on some of their components  that can help mitigate this at design time ... it helps explain why you observe these affects.

I have ‘tuned’ the Ethernet loading of my streamer in a similar approach to yours. You may find changes occur across the Ethernet segment (streamer host to switch port)

BTW you can get similar results with various cable constructions, they don’t need to be boutique or fancy...  but less trial and error using them..

Simon

Hey KC, 

In you place I may be tempted to try something with the router and some wi-fi, rather than just plugging an expensive internet cable into the end of a long run of cable from the modem. 

I would look at a wireless router with high quality clock and power supply then go wireless to my hi-fi room where I would have a device to receive the wi-fi signal and drop it onto a short cable.  

My logic is that you’ve got fibre incoming, so I would avoid any sources or potential ingress of RMI and EMI. Its this HF noise that ruines digital hi-fi’s presentation. 

+1 for Vodka. I have a very similar set up to yours Kiwi and have tried SSA in the last metre as well as C-stream, Meicord and AQ Cinnamon. Vodka a clear winner for me.

There’s something about C-stream that just doesn’t work for me regardless of where in the chain I’ve used it. Flat and dull somehow. I have 2 but they’re currently firmly on the subs bench..

SSA is impressive in the last metre role but still something missing. Rich, well ordered, cosmetically lovely, but involvement is lacking to my ears in my system. 

I use Meicord in my system from router to switch. Again from Nas to switch with my final meter being Supra from switch to 272. All sounds very good, but could be better I’m sure. Later in the year I’ll try an AQ Vodka and maybe a SOtM cat6

Blackmorec posted:

Hey KC, 

In you place I may be tempted to try something with the router and some wi-fi, rather than just plugging an expensive internet cable into the end of a long run of cable from the modem. 

I would look at a wireless router with high quality clock and power supply then go wireless to my hi-fi room where I would have a device to receive the wi-fi signal and drop it onto a short cable.  

My logic is that you’ve got fibre incoming, so I would avoid any sources or potential ingress of RMI and EMI. Its this HF noise that ruines digital hi-fi’s presentation. 

Yes, but the OP is talking about attached Ethernet cables which effectively act  RF stubs... nothing about noise sources of EMI (SMPS etc) ..... Naim only support twisted pair connections, so connected fibre is not an option... if there was an onboard SFP then things would be different..

I'm having to use Wi-fi for my 272 as the sheer Hassel of routing cable from my dining room..where the router is ..to the living room ..where the hifi gear is..makes me take the easy path and go wifi

My core is connected on internet over mains..as all it is doing is looking up album art ( it's connected to the 272 by chord coaxial) 

I would love to go totally wired .. should I just get a network engineer in and make it his problem?? Or is there an easy way someone has found.

My router and Nas are in the dining room, with the Naim in the sitting room. We solved the wiring challenge with a large drill. The plugs on a Vodka are pretty back, which is why we used a large drill. 

There is nothing wrong with WLAN, it has a bad reputation around these parts because of low grade consumer home network equipment and poor implementation. Get it done right with load balanced overlapping access points with the overlap where your streamer is located then you should be absolutely fine upto 192/24/2 ... and you might get a SQ benefit too. Wifi is about overlapping coverages of modest power, not a single spot with high power... but to do it  right you will need ideally wired connections from a switch to the access points... but you can use power over Ethernet for many of the higher grade access points to cut clutter, PSU boxes and wiring. It’s what I do.

Hi Kiwi Cat,  further to Simons post on RF stub loading:   Chord's Signature Super Aray is not a true ethernet as its universally accepted, hence why they call all their cables "streaming cable",  although it looks like C-Stream Shawline are screened twisted pair & overall screen (Cat-7) & are true ethernet.      I believe some if not all of the other cables are miniature coax bundles, but Chord keep all details of this stuff pretty close to their chest.    I'm sure Simon can better explain this potential impact from an RF stub load perspective,  but the bottom line has to be how it changes the sound on your system & with your Mk-II ears.

To reinforce Simon's point about not needing boutique cables here's my results of a short test of Ethernet cables...

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...83#75342530237227983

In other words, in my system and in my environment, it just so happened that the cheapest cable won the test (even against two well regarded 'boutique' cables)!

kevin J Carden posted:

+1 for Vodka. I have a very similar set up to yours Kiwi and have tried SSA in the last metre as well as C-stream, Meicord and AQ Cinnamon. Vodka a clear winner for me.

◼  There’s something about C-stream that just doesn’t work for me regardless of where in the chain I’ve used it. Flat and dull somehow. I have 2 but they’re currently firmly on the subs bench..◼ 

SSA is impressive in the last metre role but still something missing. Rich, well ordered, cosmetically lovely, but involvement is lacking to my ears in my system. 

???? Kevin J Carden,....I agree with you, in my system sounds the Chord C-Stream as you say....flat and dull.
And, that I feel that the Chord C-Stream also hijacks transients at the top.

We have run Chord C-Stream in 3 systems, and everyone has experienced it the same way I describe here... a Naim system with NDS, and 2 systems with Linn KlimaxDS.....all this system with a Cisco 2960 switch.

But everything is as you know about synergy, if you change something in the system, you have to maybe try eht-cables..... again.
We have been testing ehternet cables for about 5-6 months, it probably takes a few months before we are finished.
It is a guy in Gothenburg who is responsible for this EHT test.

Personally, I use Audioquest Vodka, Audioquest Diamond is a bit clearer,not so much.....a little.... but gets too light in my system.
So AQ Vodka fits better in my system, everything is about finding the synergy, that you all know.

/Peder???? 

I tried AQ Vodka did not like it and then Chord Indigo, wow oh wow, I wish I had just went Sarum T, truly amazing and as the OP says equal to big box upgrades.

Perhaps perversely, my Damascene network cable conversion was from NAS to Router. Indigo TA handily beating C-Stream, Meicord, Cinnamon, generic Cat6. The differences ranged from subtle and sometimes just different to the Indigo wow moment (and something I blind tested my wife on). 

It was because the distance was short (1.5m) and thus affordable as opposed to Router to NDX which would have been about 6 metres. 

It is interesting, it’s not in any current Ethernet standards that I am aware of, but in the early Ethernet BaseTX early it was always good practice to have a minimum of 2.5 metres for the Ethernet patch lead... I guess these days equipment is  more tolerant, but if there are funnies experienced with a short 1m or less patch lead, then it might be worth swapping for a longer to see if things improve... from the SQ noise coupling side effects of Ethernet being discussed in this thread   I would imagine different length Ethernet cables would make subtle differences to the resultant analogue audio from the streamer...

I really want to try the Wireworld Ethernet range, they are supposedly true CAT8 and I do find their product range very neutral.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted

..... Naim only support twisted pair connections, so connected fibre is not an option... if there was an onboard SFP then things would be different..

Simon, do you think this is a possibility for Naim? It would be convenient for me, but I can’t help thinking that the lack of use of SFPs in consumer networking hardware would prevent such an idea from ever catching on. 

Simon,  re minimum ethernet lengths:   A quote from Fluke (in a discussion re. their ethernet test equipment)  For Category 5e and 6, there is no minimum length requirement. ANSI/TIA/EIA-568-B.2-1 in Annex K does give a warning about reflected FEXT on shorter links with minimally compliant components. The obvious solution is not to purchase minimally compliant components. In the early days of Cat 6 when vendors were struggling to do better than marginally compliant, short links were an issue. Today, this is not an issue if you stay with a main stream vendor.    

The question is how does the average audio user know if a purchased cable is compliant to whatever category the cable supposed to be;  in short he/she doesn't & can just believe the marketing hype & hope the cable manufacturer is honest.   

 The only cable suppliers in the audio world who do provide proof of compliance is Blue Jeans & Meicord.  This is the conformance test report included with my 0.5m Meicord,  its shows NEXT has 2.7dB headroom (reserve) for Cat6 (Class-E) spec.  The 4m cable is better with 3.4dB headroom,  but I'm not assuming in anyway that this means longer is better.  Also Fluke's discussion is concerned with FEXT causing the short length problem,  Meicord & Blue Jeans only test (show) NEXT

Interestingly, eht-cables seem to be system dependent.
Our guy in Gothenburg, who is testing eht-cables, in his system sounds AQ Vodka not so good.
He is still testing, but the best eht cable so far is from Transparent cables, in his system.

He has Linn KlimaxDS with Lejonklou Hifi's best pre and power mono-blocks.
He has previously had Linn's top-spec KOMRI system and also Naim's top-spec system.
He is extremely knowledgeable and accurate,... his entire installation is more than 100% optimal.

For information: He "burn-in" each eht-cable several hundred hours before he compares....... therefore takes this time.
When he has come up with the 3 to 5 best eht-cables in he's system,...  they should be sent around to us all, so we can test these in our systems.

But in 3 other top-spec systems here, AQ Vodka works best under price €900-1000:-.
◾ Active Komri with 8 Solo monoblocks, Exact with Space Optimisation. Climax LP12 and KlimaxDS Catalyst.

◾ Linn Exact 350 with Space Optimisation, Climax LP12, KlimaxDS Catalyst.

◾ Naim Active DBL 6 * 135, NDS, LP12.... all top-spec, and all Recapp't last year.

Everyone has the Cisco 2960 switch,... here,in these systems, AQ Vodka works best so far up to the price €900-1000:-....But,that is in this guy's room/house.

Our guy in Gothenburg also tested eht-cables for about 7-8 years ago, then he came up to that 3 meter eht-cables sounded best. If it is so even this days, we maybe can have an answer to later.

And even on standard eht-cables, the direction is important,.... but I think you already knows that.

/Peder ????

Peder,  you need to explain a bit more what you mean by eht-cables,  its not something I am familiar with wrt ethernet.    I did a a period of student level study of EHT in electrical applications,  but I'm pretty sure its not that as our ethernet based system might object to >132k volts.    

ChrisSU posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted

..... Naim only support twisted pair connections, so connected fibre is not an option... if there was an onboard SFP then things would be different..

Simon, do you think this is a possibility for Naim? It would be convenient for me, but I can’t help thinking that the lack of use of SFPs in consumer networking hardware would prevent such an idea from ever catching on. 

Welll  recently I asked one of the developers, the answer was, ‘it would be good wouldn’t it’ with a coy/emberassed smile, so I assume the reason it hasn’t is because of base level consumer acceptance... fibre is more standard in commercial/ industrial setups, rather the typical home network user.... of course SFPs are for fibre as well as twisted pair... so if this is the logic it’s flawed, perhaps it’s done for product cost reasons....

Yup. SFP in the ND555 would have removed a media converter, switch and power supply from the bottom of my racks. Shame...

Mike-B posted:

Simon,  re minimum ethernet lengths:   A quote from Fluke (in a discussion re. their ethernet test equipment)  For Category 5e and 6, there is no minimum length requirement. ANSI/TIA/EIA-568-B.2-1 in Annex K does give a warning about reflected FEXT on shorter links with minimally compliant components. The obvious solution is not to purchase minimally compliant components. In the early days of Cat 6 when vendors were struggling to do better than marginally compliant, short links were an issue. Today, this is not an issue if you stay with a main stream vendor.    

The question is how does the average audio user know if a purchased cable is compliant to whatever category the cable supposed to be;  in short he/she doesn't & can just believe the marketing hype & hope the cable manufacturer is honest.   

 The only cable suppliers in the audio world who do provide proof of compliance is Blue Jeans & Meicord.  This is the conformance test report included with my 0.5m Meicord,  its shows NEXT has 2.7dB headroom (reserve) for Cat6 (Class-E) spec.  The 4m cable is better with 3.4dB headroom,  but I'm not assuming in anyway that this means longer is better.  Also Fluke's discussion is concerned with FEXT causing the short length problem,  Meicord & Blue Jeans only test (show) NEXT

Hi Mike, longer is better, unless your source network adapter can detect length of cable with the initial synchronisation observed voltages  and drop the voltages as appropriate ... I do believe there is a specification for this, and ostensibly   it’s about power conservation rather than SQ of course... however excess power leads to unintended side effects, which aren’t good in our audio streamer world....

DaveBk posted:

Yup. SFP in the ND555 would have removed a media converter, switch and power supply from the bottom of my racks. Shame...

Yup, which all add noise and detract from the overall  signal.... I really wouldn’t bother with a ‘media converter’ on the new streamers unless you like the effects of the clock colouring and intermodulation elements from the converter’s  physical synch clock... which is entirely possible.. I suspect a few people like the effects of digital  noise on their audio.

Mike-B posted:

Peder,  you need to explain a bit more what you mean by eht-cables,  its not something I am familiar with wrt ethernet.    I did a a period of student level study of EHT in electrical applications,  but I'm pretty sure its not that as our ethernet based system might object to >132k volts.    

 Around 2 kV for DC... AC is a tad higher....

132kV is the voltage used in the UK for the National distribution grid suspended with around >6 foot long chained insulators.....