Network connections - far more crucial than I could ever believe!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Minh Nguyen posted:

nbpf posted:

If the sound quality of a system happens to depend crucially on the quality of network connections than I would argue that there is something fundamentally wrong with that system or with its environment. Perhaps you can try another streamer or network player and see whether you observe the same kind of sensitivity. If this is the case, you should probably have a closer look at your LAN. I wouldn't invest any money or time in fancy cables, switches, etc. at this point as you still have to understand where the problem comes from.

I completely agree.

I also agree, but to be fair using the right diagnostic equipment locating the sources of issues is probably beyond most on this forum... if you read the majority of posts one gets the impression what some are calling an ‘upgrade’ is probably a case of moving noise profiles around and finding a noise profile that matches their system, preference and room. This is not as strange as it sounds, as Naim do something a little similar with their firmware assembly code execution timing and resultant electrical noise.. this is why firmwares sound different, even though the actual DSP filter has not changed at all. Therefore tweaking with noise profile  shifters such as consumer FMC devices and specific consumer boutique Ethernet patch leads probably yields good results on some Naim boxes... but possibly  less so with the newer high end streamers with their increased decoupling. So my only real caution is that one may find a noise profile agreeable  with one streamer that might sound somewhat different with another..

But I do agree, if you can and have the engineering skills, it’s probably better to locate and isolate or resolve the issues... rather than relying on metaphorical sticking plasters.

a lot of persons find a clear improvement in sound quality with high quality lans. Some in their personal systems, other in systems in shops.  So how explain that, the issues can’t be the same and the problem pointed by nhbf can’t be the same too.   The only logical answer would be that the issues or problems come from the streamers themselves.  But how explain that people using non naim streamers like linn ds 3 or devialet are also observing improvement in sound quality with high quality lans?

French Rooster posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Minh Nguyen posted:

nbpf posted:

If the sound quality of a system happens to depend crucially on the quality of network connections than I would argue that there is something fundamentally wrong with that system or with its environment. Perhaps you can try another streamer or network player and see whether you observe the same kind of sensitivity. If this is the case, you should probably have a closer look at your LAN. I wouldn't invest any money or time in fancy cables, switches, etc. at this point as you still have to understand where the problem comes from.

I completely agree.

I also agree, but to be fair using the right diagnostic equipment locating the sources of issues is probably beyond most on this forum... if you read the majority of posts one gets the impression what some are calling an ‘upgrade’ is probably a case of moving noise profiles around and finding a noise profile that matches their system, preference and room. This is not as strange as it sounds, as Naim do something a little similar with their firmware assembly code execution timing and resultant electrical noise.. this is why firmwares sound different, even though the actual DSP filter has not changed at all. Therefore tweaking with noise profile  shifters such as consumer FMC devices and specific consumer boutique Ethernet patch leads probably yields good results on some Naim boxes... but possibly  less so with the newer high end streamers with their increased decoupling. So my only real caution is that one may find a noise profile agreeable  with one streamer that might sound somewhat different with another..

But I do agree, if you can and have the engineering skills, it’s probably better to locate and isolate or resolve the issues... rather than relying on metaphorical sticking plasters.

a lot of persons find a clear improvement in sound quality with high quality lans. Some in their personal systems, other in systems in shops.  So how explain that, the issues can’t be the same and the problem pointed by nhbf can’t be the same too.   The only logical answer would be that the issues or problems come from the streamers themselves.  But how explain that people using non naim streamers like linn ds 3 or devialet are also observing improvement in sound quality with high quality lans?

French Rooster, with much respect, I did an experiment with ethernet cables several years ago and in my humble opinion, I could not discern any noticeable differences. I understand that the technology has moved on from then, which is why I started a new thread about how to design and build a new nas. I would like to find out for myself which parts of the puzzle affect sound quality. I do agree with [@mention:1566878603876589] that these matters may appear trivial to people with the relevant backgrounds, but to the non-tech savvy, it could be a completely different story. ATB Minh

Minh Nguyen posted:

French Rooster posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Minh Nguyen posted:

nbpf posted:

If the sound quality of a system happens to depend crucially on the quality of network connections than I would argue that there is something fundamentally wrong with that system or with its environment. Perhaps you can try another streamer or network player and see whether you observe the same kind of sensitivity. If this is the case, you should probably have a closer look at your LAN. I wouldn't invest any money or time in fancy cables, switches, etc. at this point as you still have to understand where the problem comes from.

I completely agree.

I also agree, but to be fair using the right diagnostic equipment locating the sources of issues is probably beyond most on this forum... if you read the majority of posts one gets the impression what some are calling an ‘upgrade’ is probably a case of moving noise profiles around and finding a noise profile that matches their system, preference and room. This is not as strange as it sounds, as Naim do something a little similar with their firmware assembly code execution timing and resultant electrical noise.. this is why firmwares sound different, even though the actual DSP filter has not changed at all. Therefore tweaking with noise profile  shifters such as consumer FMC devices and specific consumer boutique Ethernet patch leads probably yields good results on some Naim boxes... but possibly  less so with the newer high end streamers with their increased decoupling. So my only real caution is that one may find a noise profile agreeable  with one streamer that might sound somewhat different with another..

But I do agree, if you can and have the engineering skills, it’s probably better to locate and isolate or resolve the issues... rather than relying on metaphorical sticking plasters.

a lot of persons find a clear improvement in sound quality with high quality lans. Some in their personal systems, other in systems in shops.  So how explain that, the issues can’t be the same and the problem pointed by nhbf can’t be the same too.   The only logical answer would be that the issues or problems come from the streamers themselves.  But how explain that people using non naim streamers like linn ds 3 or devialet are also observing improvement in sound quality with high quality lans?

French Rooster, with much respect, I did an experiment with ethernet cables several years ago and in my humble opinion, I could not discern any noticeable differences. I understand that the technology has moved on from then, which is why I started a new thread about how to design and build a new nas. I would like to find out for myself which parts of the puzzle affect sound quality. I do agree with [@mention:1566878603876589] that these matters may appear trivial to people with the relevant backgrounds, but to the non-tech savvy, it could be a completely different story. ATB Minh

may i ask if these ethernet cables you experimented where on the league of chord indigo, audioquest diamond or other in the 1k/ m price ?     

French Rooster posted:

may i ask if these ethernet cables you experimented where on the league of chord indigo, audioquest diamond or other in the 1k/ m price ?     

At the time I listened to C-Stream and Indigo. Taylor Swift was so hot and dreamy in her album Red, so I chose State of Grace as my reference. At first I was convinced that there was more resolution and a more flowing quality to the sound. Then I listened to C-Stream and it sounded very similar to Indigo. Finally I listened to a standard cat 5e and guess what? It sounded very similar to C-Stream. They all sounded very similar. Love is a strange thing. Feels nice though. That Indigo cable looked so sexy. I almost fell in love with her looks, that purple braid loosely covering a delicate body which was exposed by two nice looking connectors at each end. It felt nice to touch her. That tactile sensation arouses feelings. I massaged her until she yielded. Pliant in my hands I ran my fingers up and down her body until I found both holes. She whispered two holes for happiness. She was right. So beautiful but so high maintenance. The same body in an expensive dress and fancy shoes. She had out stayed her welcome. It was a bitter divorce.

Thats a bit too saucy just to describe an ethernet cable, some may take offence at the language you have used.

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

Same rules as ever.
???? a) Post positive, or not at all.
???? b) Never post anything you would not say to someone's face.
???? c) It is really about the music, Enjoy.
Bruce
----------------------------------------------------------
And,...HAFLER30 also wrote...

???? a) dump those pre-conceived notions.
     b)  speak only from experience.
     c)  remove socks before attending to marital duties.         
---------------------------------------------------------
" Dare To Be Openminded "

/Peder???? 

robert_h posted:

Thats a bit too saucy just to describe an ethernet cable, some may take offence at the language you have used.

IDK. Several studies have established that listening to pleasurable music can stimulate release of dopamine, the same neurotransmitter released during sex and use of addictive drugs. Ian Dury may have hit the nail on the head with his song "Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll" and Minh's description could be the result of writing while under the influence of pleasurable music.

I believe that the majority of people that buy expensive hifi equipment want to listen to music, not diagnose technical issues. In fact, I suspect that many of Naim’s prospective customers would be fairly discouraged by these kinds of comments.  I’ve been very careful not to call it an “upgrade”, but if we had an open-minded discussion, we might discover something that could help people improve their hifi systems - even if that’s avoiding my make of switch or certain types of cables. The assumption seems to be that I lack technical skills or that I don’t know what “better” sounds like, yet, no one has heard my system and can really understand the effect this change has had - even if it does indicate an underlying problem.  What would be helpful is a suggestion as to what you might do next, if you think that the MCs are a “wrong turn“ - I’d be happy to try it.

French Rooster posted:

a lot of persons find a clear improvement in sound quality with high quality lans. 

But define a ‘high quality LAN’. It’s a kind of meaningless expression to me without qualification. Are you actually talking about network data, the RF loading from the PHY send clock of host devices (streamers) with the Ethernet patch lead, or possibly common mode noise loops between attached cables such as mains leads and Ethernet patch cables... there are many variants... and most I suspect mentioned here on these threads are not intrinsically data related to the LAN or the network itself.. but simply electrical characteristics of the segment that connects host streamer to a switchport... rather than the network itself.

If one was to look at LAN quality in terms of efficiency and processing overhead (less unnecessary processing should equal less electrical noise on the streamer host) then one would want to assess and control and minimise the amount of broadcast traffic, and ensure multicast address groups are being properly setup and implemented.... now to me that  would be a possible example of high quality LAN... rather than  referring to the electrical properties of attached cables (which could equally apply to USB, Ethernet or HDMI) or even the segment physical layer  synchronising clock jitter.(again applies to async USB, Ethernet and SPDIF and probably HDMI too)

Minh Nguyen posted:

French Rooster posted:

may i ask if these ethernet cables you experimented where on the league of chord indigo, audioquest diamond or other in the 1k/ m price ?     

At the time I listened to C-Stream and Indigo. Taylor Swift was so hot and dreamy in her album Red, so I chose State of Grace as my reference. At first I was convinced that there was more resolution and a more flowing quality to the sound. Then I listened to C-Stream and it sounded very similar to Indigo. Finally I listened to a standard cat 5e and guess what? It sounded very similar to C-Stream. They all sounded very similar. Love is a strange thing. Feels nice though. That Indigo cable looked so sexy. I almost fell in love with her looks, that purple braid loosely covering a delicate body which was exposed by two nice looking connectors at each end. It felt nice to touch her. That tactile sensation arouses feelings. I massaged her until she yielded. Pliant in my hands I ran my fingers up and down her body until I found both holes. She whispered two holes for happiness. She was right. So beautiful but so high maintenance. The same body in an expensive dress and fancy shoes. She had out stayed her welcome. It was a bitter divorce.

perhaps you have very developed eyes but less refined ears?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

French Rooster posted:

a lot of persons find a clear improvement in sound quality with high quality lans. 

But define a ‘high quality LAN’. It’s a kind of meaningless expression to me without qualification. Are you actually talking about network data, the RF loading from the PHY send clock of host devices (streamers) with the Ethernet patch lead, or possibly common mode noise loops between attached cables such as mains leads and Ethernet patch cables... there are many variants... and most I suspect mentioned here on these threads are not intrinsically data related to the LAN or the network itself.. but simply electrical characteristics of the segment that connects host streamer to a switchport... rather than the network itself.

If one was to look at LAN quality in terms of efficiency and processing overhead (less unnecessary processing should equal less electrical noise on the streamer host) then one would want to assess and control and minimise the amount of broadcast traffic, and ensure multicast address groups are being properly setup and implemented.... now to me that  would be a possible example of high quality LAN... rather than  referring to the electrical properties of attached cables (which could equally apply to USB, Ethernet or HDMI) or even the segment physical layer  synchronising clock jitter.(again applies to async USB, Ethernet and SPDIF and probably HDMI too)

i am sure you have understood what i mean by high quality lans.... You call them «  fancy «  ethernet cables.

But what has that got to do with LANs, and how do you know they are of high quality? Are they certified, or is it simply they cost a lot and you notice a sound difference with them...

You see this is my point... you end up potentially confusing yourself and others by referring to terms that really are very superficial and to many misleading. By all means refer to Audiophile Ethernet patch leads, but if you are referring to the LAN to many, and certainly to those who work with this stuff day in and day out, we are almost certainly talking about something else.

By the way I do recommend you look at the quality of your LAN as I indicate above it can make quite a difference especially in ease of use and responsiveness to streaming applications... and yes that has nothing to with cables or fibres.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

But what has that got to do with LANs, and how do you know they are of high quality? Are they certified, or is it simply they cost a lot and you notice a sound difference with them...

You see this is my point... you end up potentially confusing yourself and others by referring to terms that really are very superficial and to many misleading. By all means refer to Audiophile Ethernet patch leads, but if you are referring to the LAN to many, and certainly to those who work with this stuff day in and day out, we are almost certainly talking about something else.

By the way I do recommend you look at the quality of your LAN as I indicate above it can make quite a difference especially in ease of use and responsiveness to streaming applications.

Simon, why such energy to demonstrate that i am wrong ?    This forum is to share our experience.  My english is a bit abrupt, without nuances, so it can be wrongly understood.

I have no technical knowledge in hifi, computers, cables,....and can’t explain why i find that audiophile lans cables as audioquest vodka or diamond give better sound on my system. But it is a fact for me and for a lot of users.  But can’t explain why other don’t hear the same improvement.   It is a mystery.  I don’t know where is the truth here, and if it’s possible to have the same sound quality without expensive audiophile lans cables.   I would prefer not to invest in this cables if there was other solution.

I am sure with the NDS555 there will be a Lumina type ethernet for many £100s if not £1000s.

Be interesting to see told who are so vehemently again anything more than a £5 Amazon cable fall over themselves to buy and make BOLD claims ????

French Rooster posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

But what has that got to do with LANs, and how do you know they are of high quality? Are they certified, or is it simply they cost a lot and you notice a sound difference with them...

You see this is my point... you end up potentially confusing yourself and others by referring to terms that really are very superficial and to many misleading. By all means refer to Audiophile Ethernet patch leads, but if you are referring to the LAN to many, and certainly to those who work with this stuff day in and day out, we are almost certainly talking about something else.

By the way I do recommend you look at the quality of your LAN as I indicate above it can make quite a difference especially in ease of use and responsiveness to streaming applications.

Simon, why such energy to demonstrate that i am wrong ?    This forum is to share our experience.  My english is a bit abrupt, without nuances, so it can be wrongly understood.

I have no technical knowledge in hifi, computers, cables,....and can’t explain why i find that audiophile lans cables as audioquest vodka or diamond give better sound on my system. But it is a fact for me and for a lot of users.  But can’t explain why other don’t hear the same improvement.   It is a mystery.  I don’t know where is the truth here, and if it’s possible to have the same sound quality without expensive audiophile lans cables.   I would prefer not to invest in this cables if there was other solution.

French Rooster, Simon is not saying that you are wrong. What he is saying is that an apple is not a pear. He needs to know that you are both talking the same language and referring to the same thing.

high end ethernet cables, audiophile ethernet cables, audiophile lan cables, expensive lan or ethernet cables, high quality ethernet cables, or even «  take your money ethernet cables » if some prefer to think that.

GHENT Cat6a with Belden cable and Metz Plugs

So I received the cable, but waited as another firmware update I wanted to familiarise with before adding another variable to the mix.

Anyway firstly this cable is damn fine in terms of build, outclassed my Chord Aray with ease, the Metz Plugs are impressive, similar to the AQ Vodka but it's makes them look cheap and flimsy.

So I used 6 familiar tracks and went.

1. Chord Aray current setup (FMB to Streamer);

2. Ghent replaced Chord Aray (FMB to Streamer);

3. GHENT swapped the direction (Ghent say not directional);

4. Chord Aray, back to 1. Current setup.

5. Chord C Stream, replaced with Ghent (Switch to FMB).

Right enough waffle, in short the Ghent is VERY good, finding the right direction music flows better, but putting back the Chord music just flows with ease and all the subtleties make it so organic. 

I did think for a moment I was about to hang up my Chord Aray pom poms, but no, but the Ghent at a 10th of the price is VERY impressive.

So moving on, my forum friend MR FRENCH ROOSTER postulated that the switch to FMB cable is also important, so I thought I would swap the Chord C Stream with the Ghent.

Wow oh wow, that change was very subtle, but the sound stage has grown in height and the sense of air around the soundstage is VERY, very involving, back to what I liked about the original Nova firmware.

My only issue is now, I feel I want to either Ghent my router to switch also, or the worrying scenario is Chord Aray the full router to switch to FMB to Streamer.

One question the Ghent is 1.5m, my Chord C Stream was 0.5m, as it was a short Switch to FMB, is there an issue cooking ethernet cables, I would think not, but then I also said I would never spend more than the £5 Amazon ethernet cable ????

Obsydian posted:

One question the Ghent is 1.5m, my Chord C Stream was 0.5m, as it was a short Switch to FMB, is there an issue cooking ethernet cables, I would think not, but then I also said I would never spend more than the £5 Amazon ethernet cable ????

Hey my friend,  nice discovery this ghent cable.   Is this a chinese cable ?    because China can make nowadays very good stuff for much less money.  And i remember it was flying from China (?).

Glad you experimented too the impact of a good lan between router and switch.  If you can borrow another indigo to try between router and switch, it would be interesting.

Yes Ghent Audio, over on CA it is highly regarded, sound and in terms of technical specifications...

I would need 3 Chord Aray, so another 2, at circa £1000 each, I will pass, but plan to get another Ghent as it does seem a very neutral cable.

I also ordered a USB Ghent cable so my car, very minor improvement in terms of clearer vocals and tightening of bass lines.

I do think in a week I will try another A B A C, as most cables I have found take a good few hours to settle, the Ghent cold is VERY good, maybe run in it maybe better than the Aray.

Keep us posted!

I found both the Meicord and Supra CAT8 neutral sounding with the Meicord sounding slightly more open and tighter. 

Has anyone tried SOtM cables? 

Obsydian posted:

Yes Ghent Audio, over on CA it is highly regarded, sound and in terms of technical specifications...

I would need 3 Chord Aray, so another 2, at circa £1000 each, I will pass, but plan to get another Ghent as it does seem a very neutral cable.

I also ordered a USB Ghent cable so my car, very minor improvement in terms of clearer vocals and tightening of bass lines.

I do think in a week I will try another A B A C, as most cables I have found take a good few hours to settle, the Ghent cold is VERY good, maybe run in it maybe better than the Aray.

why do you need 3 ethernet cables Obsydian ?    you have a uniticore or a server ?

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Yes Ghent Audio, over on CA it is highly regarded, sound and in terms of technical specifications...

I would need 3 Chord Aray, so another 2, at circa £1000 each, I will pass, but plan to get another Ghent as it does seem a very neutral cable.

I also ordered a USB Ghent cable so my car, very minor improvement in terms of clearer vocals and tightening of bass lines.

I do think in a week I will try another A B A C, as most cables I have found take a good few hours to settle, the Ghent cold is VERY good, maybe run in it maybe better than the Aray.

why do you need 3 ethernet cables Obsydian ?    you have a uniticore or a server ?

1 Cable (Chord C Stream) Router to Switch

1 Cable (Ghent Cat6a) Switch to FMB

1 Cable (Chord Indigo Aray) - FMB to Streamer

Replacing the first two with Chord Aray is not wise, so thinking replace the C Stream with another Ghent.

But before I do I want baseline the current setup and then move the Ghent (Router to Switch).

Bit more listening today and for sure the Ghent is starting to open up, of things continue I maybe have to switch the Chord and just got all out Ghent.

Finkfan posted:

Keep us posted!

I found both the Meicord and Supra CAT8 neutral sounding with the Meicord sounding slightly more open and tighter. 

Has anyone tried SOtM cables? 

I initially went from an Amazon £5 to the Supra, I found it subtle but worthwhile, later I added a Supra power cable just to my setup, it really killed the top end dynamics, in the end I removed the Supra ethernet and power cables.

It would be a good idea to have a cable thread, where we try and capture what each cable brings, subtracts and stays neutral, as everyone has a preference in terms of dare I say tone controls ????

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Yes Ghent Audio, over on CA it is highly regarded, sound and in terms of technical specifications...

I would need 3 Chord Aray, so another 2, at circa £1000 each, I will pass, but plan to get another Ghent as it does seem a very neutral cable.

I also ordered a USB Ghent cable so my car, very minor improvement in terms of clearer vocals and tightening of bass lines.

I do think in a week I will try another A B A C, as most cables I have found take a good few hours to settle, the Ghent cold is VERY good, maybe run in it maybe better than the Aray.

why do you need 3 ethernet cables Obsydian ?    you have a uniticore or a server ?

1 Cable (Chord C Stream) Router to Switch

1 Cable (Ghent Cat6a) Switch to FMB

1 Cable (Chord Indigo Aray) - FMB to Streamer

Replacing the first two with Chord Aray is not wise, so thinking replace the C Stream with another Ghent.

But before I do I want baseline the current setup and then move the Ghent (Router to Switch).

Bit more listening today and for sure the Ghent is starting to open up, of things continue I maybe have to switch the Chord and just got all out Ghent.

yes, all clear, i just forgot the fmc.