Colloms on Network Switches...

???? JAMES N,...This sounds interesting, especially since I,we have worked a lot with the system optimization of Cisco WS C2960.
Thanks for the tip.. ????????

◾ Simon In Suffolk,...You see what you have started,when you recommended this Cisco 2960 ????.

/Peder ????

Naim don't use switches or boutique cables, yet ????

Naim don't use switches or boutique ethernet cables, yet ????

james n posted:

The latest issue of Critic dropped onto my door mat this morning. I've only had time for a quick scan through but noticed it has an article on Audio Networking - Martin Colloms assess the sound quality of different network switches.

It might be of interest to a few on here given it discusses the venerable Cisco 2960 and optimisation of said switch 

i hope you will tell us a bit more after. The aqvox 8se is reviewed.  Is it compared to the 2960?  thanks 

Highlights from the article would be great [@mention:45633859548536396]. 

Optimization of the 2960 sounds interesting! 

Rough summary - likes what the 2960 does after optimising supports and cables and goes so far to say network replay on his NDS now betters USB stick playback (which is praise indeed from MC). I'll have a proper read tomorrow 

Cables, oh no the non boutique brigade will be foaming at the mouth ????

The Cisco is VERY sensitive, to me as much as most audio boxes.

Now if MC could see the light go fibre bridge, galvanic isolation, etc... that would be interesting.

Suddenly the 2960 prices will rocket.

Is the Cisco fussy about location? Mine is on the carpeted floor under my rack at the moment. I could wall mount it behind the rack if that’s better? Or is on the rack better still? 

I don't think he was using pricey streaming cables. The main concern seems to be the 2960 is quite microphonic so playing about with supports and feet seems beneficial. Puts me in mind of that expensive Japanese switch mentioned on here a while back which due to its construction should be less susceptible to external mechanical influences. That was a daft price though....

I'd recommend ordering the mag (you can get an issue online). It'll give you Cisco boys some ideas to keep you busy. I'm off to the music room 

Interesting I haven’t found the Catalyst switches microphonic at all.. in fact in my experience they are rather inert... you are best keeping them out of the way, and ideally in my opinion have at least 3 to 5 metres Ethernet patch lead between it and the streamer... I have only used the fan free catalysts with my audio, the larger fanned devices may be different... but you’d want to keep them well away from your audio equipment as they are quite sonically noisy devices.

i have been experimenting inspired by another thread on this forum with layer 3 Catalyst devices (ie 3560) , and creating a dedicated routed subnet for the streamer... still early days... but isolating network broadcast traffic is sounding like it’s bringing benefits sound wise... ie by increasing the quality of the traffic on the lan segment to the streamer... this and inter frame timing  is where in my opinion the real benefits in connected network audio optimisations lie, rather than fiddling about with fancy patch leads... and regarding isolation, all compliant Ethernet devices are glavanically isolated.... so you get that for free with Ethernet.

[@mention:1566878603926433] So, Martin's optimisations were only looking at location and isolation rather than the technical configuration of the switch?

[@mention:1566878603876589] Interested to hear how you get on with this. I assume the thread that caught your interest was the one on Room Discover Protocols across Subnets?

Yes, I got the discovery and the Naim app discovery working across subnets using PIM stub routing ... but there is a funny where media starts and then stops for no apparent reason.... I need to look at wireshark to see what is happening... but out for most of the weekend so will have to wait.

Obsydian posted:

Cables, oh no the non boutique brigade will be foaming at the mouth ????

Martin Colloms "Rating" list for IC & digi cables has Meicord Cat6 rated as highest ethernet at '150' (his rating system number) Belden Cat 5 & 6 are 120 & 130 as a comparison.   He does not have any of the usual forum favourite 'boutique' cables listed so I suspect his ratings list as shown on www is not up to date.

Meanwhile I will rest easy with my Meicord Cat6 until I get a look at this MC report,  & then probably carry on just as before.

Mike-B posted:

Obsydian posted:

Cables, oh no the non boutique brigade will be foaming at the mouth ????

Martin Colloms "Rating" list for IC & digi cables has Meicord Cat6 rated as highest ethernet at '150' (his rating system number) Belden Cat 5 & 6 are 120 & 130 as a comparison.   He does not have any of the usual forum favourite 'boutique' cables listed so I suspect his ratings list as shown on www is not up to date.

Meanwhile I will rest easy with my Meicord Cat6 until I get a look at this MC report,  & then probably carry on just as before.

Thanks MiKe-B, I may look at the Miecord, but ideally want one brand (signature), they Ghent is really starting to open up (but still only 10hrs using it) and really closing the Chord Aray gap.

I'm thinking Ghent all the way and then leave it alone, but the Miecord is quicker to buy as no slow boat from China.

The only cable I really want to test is the Wireworld, but the top end ones are pushing a few £100s and no dealer or seller is willing to allow home demos, shame if they are so confident why not.

The Wireworld is supposedly true Cat8, plus a different approach the cable insulation and separation.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Interesting I haven’t found the Catalyst switches microphonic at all.. in fact in my experience they are rather inert... you are best keeping them out of the way, and ideally in my opinion have at least 3 to 5 metres Ethernet patch lead between it and the streamer... I have only used the fan free catalysts with my audio, the larger fanned devices may be different... but you’d want to keep them well away from your audio equipment as they are quite sonically noisy devices.

i have been experimenting inspired by another thread on this forum with layer 3 Catalyst devices (ie 3560) , and creating a dedicated routed subnet for the streamer... still early days... but isolating network broadcast traffic is sounding like it’s bringing benefits sound wise... ie by increasing the quality of the traffic on the lan segment to the streamer... this and inter frame timing  is where in my opinion the real benefits in connected network audio optimisations lie, rather than fiddling about with fancy patch leads... and regarding isolation, all compliant Ethernet devices are glavanically isolated.... so you get that for free with Ethernet.

i found that the cisco sound best on a dedicated shelf. It stands now on his own shelf on the tv rack( glass shelf).  With ceramic cerapucks from finite elemente, the sound is a bit more transparent and some instruments have more edge.  Microphony ?   i don’t know but it sounds better under my cerapucks.

Obsydian posted:

Thanks MiKe-B, I may look at the Miecord, but ideally want one brand (signature), they Ghent is really starting to open up (but still only 10hrs using it) and really closing the Chord Aray gap.    I'm thinking Ghent all the way and then leave it alone, but the Miecord is quicker to buy as no slow boat from China.

I would stick with whatever you choose & then forget about it; upgraditis is not good for a person's sanity.   I've tried (borrowed) a few different brands & found most all I tried sounded different to some extent, but different does not mean better.  I like the Meicord because it was the best in its class - on my system - plus as an engineer I was impressed with the attention to detail w.r.t. the Meicord designed RJ45's cable mngt that maintain the pair twist right up to the connector pins.   

The Ghent looks pretty good;  Belden cable is among the best for quality, the Metz RJ45's looks the business & the whole cable as a patch assy has favourable reviews over on CA.    If it gets close to the Chord aray types on your system & in your mind,  that'll be OK for me.

Mine lives on the floor under the sideboard, and sits on four little rubber feet that cost me 20p from the hardware shop. Maybe it makes a difference but the idea of spending £499 on three Cerapucs to support an old switch that cost £50 does seem a bit odd. But then it’s perhaps no more odd than my Vodka ethernet cable that I happily paid £300 for. Aren’t things complicated! It might be worth trying some sorbothane feet I suppose. It’s a shame I put a set I used to have in the bin, after they left black rings on the furniture. 

Obsydian posted:

The only cable I really want to test is the Wireworld, but the top end ones are pushing a few £100s and no dealer or seller is willing to allow home demos, shame if they are so confident why not.

The Wireworld is supposedly true Cat8, plus a different approach the cable insulation and separation.

But what's so special about Cat8 ????  Whilst I would be interested in hearing for myself if this new standard & cable construction  makes any difference,  my skepticism revolves around audio streaming support 100Base-T (100Mb/s) & the data stream is transmitted with a maximum fundamental frequency of 31.25MHz.    Cat5e at 100MHz & 100Mb/s is all you need,  Cat8 is 2000 MHz & I'm not at all sure that RJ45 configuration can handle 2GHz anyhow,  but thats another subject;  my point is Cat8 is just not needed with audio streaming - but I'm open minded until I hear for myself

Mike-B posted:

Obsydian posted:

The only cable I really want to test is the Wireworld, but the top end ones are pushing a few £100s and no dealer or seller is willing to allow home demos, shame if they are so confident why not.

The Wireworld is supposedly true Cat8, plus a different approach the cable insulation and separation.

But what's so special about Cat8 ????  Whilst I would be interested in hearing for myself if this new standard & cable construction  makes any difference,  my skepticism revolves around audio streaming support 100Base-T (100Mb/s) & the data stream is transmitted with a maximum fundamental frequency of 31.25MHz.    Cat5e at 100MHz & 100Mb/s is all you need,  Cat8 is 2000 MHz & I'm not at all sure that RJ45 configuration can handle 2GHz anyhow,  but thats another subject;  my point is Cat8 is just not needed with audio streaming - but I'm open minded until I hear for myself

Like you Mike the cable construction interests me, I did purchase a Wireworld Starlight USB to test, but sadly I made a school boy error and missed it was not the USB A but the female type used in most printers ????

But I use the Wirewold power clock for all network powered devices and to me it was very neutral.

hungryhalibut posted:

Mine lives on the floor under the sideboard, and sits on four little rubber feet that cost me 20p from the hardware shop. Maybe it makes a difference but the idea of spending £499 on three Cerapucs to support an old switch that cost £50 does seem a bit odd. But then it’s perhaps no more odd than my Vodka ethernet cable that I happily paid £300 for. Aren’t things complicated! It might be worth trying some sorbothane feet I suppose. It’s a shame I put a set I used to have in the bin, after they left black rings on the furniture. 

i would never buy costly cerapucks or even ceraballs to put under the cisco.  I had 3 unused in my home, so they found this new location.    For the cisco, it is a brand new white one i paid around 100GBP....( some weeks ago).

i would be interested to read this Martin Colloms article on the switches.  Unfortunately it can’t be downloaded online.  I will not pay 20GBP to have the magazine at home.  Sometimes, when there’s more interesting articles, i buy the hificritic mag.

Ok - jist of the article is that MC was recently recommended to try the 2960 between his Unitiserve and NDS. Initially found it disappointing but experiments with feet and placing it on a spare Fraim shelf moved things up quite appreciably (mentioned it was extremely microphonic - comparable to a turntable). Nothing mentioned about the tech configuration of the switch. As well as a general uplift in system performance with the optimised 2960, streaming Qobuz tracks via the 2960 brought them nearly up to the level of the same tracks played via the US. Seems that the new switch now shows up greater differences in cables between US > Switch > NDS. Anyway seems he's pleased and will be experimenting more. Make of it what you will... 

On another note, Mike B, i agree about the Meicord Opal cables. I'd tried them before in a different setup and found no difference but the construction and general engineering of these cables were a step above most others. Having recently been able to use UPnP with the new Core Infinity streaming board, i revisited the Ethernet link between my Melco server and Devialet amp and found the Meicord to be an improvement over a generic CAT5e patch cable i'd been using. The only downside is the short length required and the stiffness of the cable meant some gentle forming of the cable was needed to avoid putting torsional stress on the connectors. Warmed with a hair dryer, the cable could be shaped nicely and stayed put when cool. Good value cables and sensibly engineered too. 

James

thanks james.  Just a question :  the magazine has also a review of the aqvox 8se switch :  is it reviewed by Martin too, and compared to the cisco?

I just had a dig through my Critic collection. Yes, it was MC who reviewed the Aqvox switch in an earlier issue. It was this that piqued his interest in switches and possible effects. No comparisons were mentioned in the latest article