Fell in love with ATC SCM19s but fear The Mullet

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Chris, I found with the new ATCs, you don’t need particularly muscly  amps to drive them... I think that view came from the older designs which had quite a challenging impedance curve coupled with quite low sensitivity. Although the new designs are no more sensitive because of being an infinite baffle design speaker, they are better behaved impedance curve wise, assuming you don’t want sofa shaking volumes or a large room to fill, I found the  NaitXS 2 worked rather well with the 19s and 11s.. so most if not all current Naim amps are going to work well with the ATCs... Naim amps and the current ATC passives make a wonderfully enjoyable combination... in my opinion... in my room I haven’t yet bettered that combo.. and out of curiosity I quite enjoy sampling other speakers from my obliging dealer...

Hi Simon... thank you for taking the time to reply, 

I tend to agree with you,  I found the Nait XS to work rather well with the SCM11, I spent about 4-5 hours listening to track after track... never skipping, just letting music flow... loved it. The same happened when I listened to the SCM19 with a 250.

You know what throws me? I did a quick search on the forum (yeah, I know, there are hundreds of people who own Naim but don't bother registering or even putting their system details) but only based on the ones that do post their system on their profile, this is what came out: I searched for "SCM19" on members profiles/system details... (I tidied up the formats a bit and deleted power supplies to keep things simple)

• XTR CD transport Benchmark DAC1 NAP72 Hicap NAP140 x 2 (BiAmp) SCM19
• Mac Chord 2qute  Supernait2  SCM19
• NDX XPS  NAC252/NAP250  SCM19
• Rega P9 Superline NAC-N272/NAP 250  SCM19
• CDX2 NDX  Chord Hugo  NAC552/NAP250 SCM19
• Simple Audio Roomplayer Naim nDAC NAC252/NAP250  SCM19
• Mac Mini  NAC-N 272/NAP250  SCM19

 Besides a Supernait and someone using two NAP140, most owners of SCM19 partner then with NAP250 upwards. This is what made me think, am I making the wrong choice? - I wish I could bring every possible combination home but that's not always possible (hence why reviews and forums exist I guess)

Alonso,
i had previously passive 19 ( i have now 19a). They were at first partnered with my  SN2. this combination worked OK, but i end up using them with my 32.5-160, because it worked
so much better.  As you know , power is not the strongest attribute of the old nap 160 , but it can teach a few tricks to younger amps in terms of agility and musicality , something very important with the 19s. The 19s will expose the SN2 , as was it is : a little forward sounding amp, that is great at imposing its will to shy speakers. The 19s are not shy at all. You instead need finesse and quality upfront. 202/hcdr is a good starting point, and you will need to upgrade your nd5xs, as quickly as possible. I had it for a while, it is good but the 19s requires a better quality source

Simon,

That is- frankly.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Alonso, have you listened to SCM19s in your own room? How are you so sure that they would be the right speakers for you? They will probably need a NAP250 to drive them properly, which arguably makes your ND5XS source a mullet. Whatever upgrade plans you have, it pays to have an endgame to aim for in the form of a well balanced system

Chris, I found with the new ATCs, you don’t need particularly muscly  amps to drive them... I think that view came from the older designs which had quite a challenging impedance curve coupled with quite low sensitivity. Although the new designs are no more sensitive because of being an infinite baffle design speaker, they are better behaved impedance curve wise, assuming you don’t want sofa shaking volumes or a large room to fill, I found the  NaitXS 2 worked rather well with the 19s and 11s.. so most if not all current Naim amps are going to work well with the ATCs... Naim amps and the current ATC passives make a wonderfully enjoyable combination... in my opinion... in my room I haven’t yet bettered that combo.. and out of curiosity I quite enjoy sampling other speakers from my obliging dealer...

Thanks for the info, Simon. Sounds like things have moved on a bit with ATCs, as it's been quite a while since I heard any, and my impression back then was that they were power hungry. Maybe time to revisit this, as my dealer now sells ATC, and I might just be tempted to look at something to replace my little Kudos X2s.

Hi Alonso , I used SCM19 with  a Supernait 2 as Pre and 250DR for a couple of years with great results . I already had both amps when I bought the ATCs but I did try them with the Supernait 2 on its own , it was really good so I'd definitely recommend that option . I previously owned a Nait XS which whilst very good it isn't in the same league as a Supernait 2 .

I have very recently purchased ATC SCM40 Actives and I'm using a Benchmark DAC3 HGC DAC/PRE to feed them which is a fantastic little box of tricks and very well priced . I came across it at a North London dealer demo of Active SCM50s and it was his reference system , I'm very happy with it but I also look forward to seeing what Naim  (372?) may release in the next year or so .

Stringerbell posted:

 You instead need finesse and quality upfront. 202/hcdr is a good starting point, and you will need to upgrade your nd5xs, as quickly as possible. I had it for a while, it is good but the 19s requires a better quality source

Hi Simon.... this is also a possible alternative... 202/200 (instead of a SU) although it is not clear to me which on has the edge.

Although on a practical/everyday convenience level, the SN2 has a 'Remote in' (just like the Nait XS) I dont think you can do that with the NAC202, so one were to go go for the 202/200 path, one would need 2 remotes; one for the the source and another for the pre-amp. A ND5XS/172/272 you just use one remote... Sure, this is not related to SQ but it's part of the picture.

Back to SQ, yes, the source would be upgraded at certain points if/when circumstances allow, but at least with either a SN2 or 202/200, I would not have a system in storage.

It's interesting nobody has suggested to get a 250 and use the Nait XS as a pre until funds allow for a proper pre-amp?

pete T15 posted:

Hi Alonso , I used SCM19 with  a Supernait 2 as Pre and 250DR for a couple of years with great results . I already had both amps when I bought the ATCs but I did try them with the Supernait 2 on its own , it was really good so I'd definitely recommend that option . I previously owned a Nait XS which whilst very good it isn't in the same league as a Supernait 2 .

I have very recently purchased ATC SCM40 Actives and I'm using a Benchmark DAC3 HGC DAC/PRE to feed them which is a fantastic little box of tricks and very well priced . I came across it at a North London dealer demo of Active SCM50s and it was his reference system , I'm very happy with it but I also look forward to seeing what Naim  (372?) may release in the next year or so .

Hi Pete. Thank you for replying... yes... I have thought of using your 'path' too.

Stage 1: ND5XS>SN2>Motives2

Stage 2: ND5XS>SN2>SCM19

Stage 3: ND5XS>SN2>NA250>SCM19

I know that the source would have to be improved at some point but I can't really project myself that far (beyond stage 3)

What I said on my post at the beginning still stands; I would like to:

a) maximise enjoyment in each of the stages, b) minimising the time I am stuck with a 'stop-gap' solution, and c) ideally not have to sell new purchases to go to the next step?

Obviously (b) depends on funds but, (a) is more or less my guiding principle. 

Doesn't the Nait XS have a pre-out?  Can this be used to feed active 19s?

Later swap the electronics to 272.

Later again go to active 50s.

The 202/200 is rather nice. Some think the 202/200 is overrated while I feel it's underrated as the 282/200 or 250 gets recommended a lot more often than the 202/200. A note is the Hicap DR is capable of elevating the 202 to a higher level of performance. I briefly tried the Hicap DR with the 202/200 and it sounded quite wonderful, more poise and better clarity and detail than the bare 202/200.

Re. Supernait 2 vs 202/200. Sound quality is a matter of preference, and I believe these 2 amps will sound quite different. For simplicity the Supernait 2 as a one-box solution will have the edge. An optimised 202/200 will come with 2 additional boxes (NAPSC and Hicap DR) so it will add to the clutter. There may be folks who have listened to a bare 202/200 and didn't quite like the sound but impressions may change when the Hicap DR is added to the mix.

Stringerbell posted:

Alonso,
i had previously passive 19 ( i have now 19a). They were at first partnered with my  SN2. this combination worked OK, but i end up using them with my 32.5-160, because it worked
so much better.  As you know , power is not the strongest attribute of the old nap 160 , but it can teach a few tricks to younger amps in terms of agility and musicality , something very important with the 19s. The 19s will expose the SN2 , as was it is : a little forward sounding amp, that is great at imposing its will to shy speakers. The 19s are not shy at all. You instead need finesse and quality upfront. 202/hcdr is a good starting point, and you will need to upgrade your nd5xs, as quickly as possible. I had it for a while, it is good but the 19s requires a better quality source

 

Simon,

32.5/160 sounded better than Supernait 2 on the ATC SCM19. Interesting. NAP 160 may be the factor when pitted against the power amp section of the Supernait 2. Nevertheless, I think it's the 32.5/160 combination as a whole which gave it the edge over the SN2.

sunbeamgls posted:

Doesn't the Nait XS have a pre-out?  Can this be used to feed active 19s?

Later swap the electronics to 272.

Later again go to active 50s.

That is a very tempting proposition ... one that I have considered but the SCM19A are very new and as a consequence very thin on the ground in the second hand market... but yes... that is a possibility . It would take me about 2 years to save for them (is it obvious that I despise credit?) ha... but yes...  that could work. 

ryder. posted:

Re. Supernait 2 vs 202/200. Sound quality is a matter of preference, and I believe these 2 amps will sound quite different. For simplicity the Supernait 2 as a one-box solution will have the edge. An optimised 202/200 will come with 2 additional boxes (NAPSC and Hicap DR) so it will add to the clutter. There may be folks who have listened to a bare 202/200 and didn't quite like the sound but impressions may change when the Hicap DR is added to the mix.

Hi Ryder... yes... box clutter (adding power supplies) and multiple remotes is something that I do consider and it does have an effect on my buying behaviour. And yes, re. SQ, the 202/200 vs SN2 is a matter taste...  

If I had the money now I'd go for a NAC N272 > SCM50ASL or even a NAC N272 > SCM19ASL but I don't,  so the SCM19 seem to be the 'next best thing' The SCM19 are a pair of speakers with huge potential, with which you can build a system around, so I am happy with them as an option in that sense

Sure, the more power the better, so a NAP250 to feed them the 19 would be amazing.... Should I sell my Nait XS and ND5XS and put the £1700 both would fetch on the popular auction site and buy a pair of SCM19? and let them sit until I can afford not only a NAP250 but also a NACN272? - It would take me years, is it a sacrifice worth making?

That is why I have to disregard suggestions such as 'You need to get rid of the ND5XS ASAP' I need to maximise the use of what I already have and make the most of every purchase in terms of enjoyment but also consider them as building blocks for the next stage, IF that stage comes. It's always a real possibility that because of life contingencies, that 'next stage' never comes, - So I need to make sure that whatever I do in terms of purchases, I am fundamentally happy with

Isn't there always a danger, as we uprgrade components little by little over time, that a possible mullet will occur but balance be re-established upon the next upgrade?

I drove a pair of SCM11 quite happily with a Unitiqute2 for a while, another possible mullet, but i think your existing electronics are better than I had and although the 19 are a different animal to the 11s I used i would have thought it a reasonable step up.

Admittedly the upper volume with the UQ2 was a little limited but i always had the long term in mind and now that I have been able to make further upgrades I couldn't be happier.....

....well, that would have been the case if i hadn't heard the SCM50A at a recent event )

I think you are setting yourself up for some pain here.

I would stay put with whatever you have. The point is the enjoy music.

analogmusic posted:

I think you are setting yourself up for some pain here.

I would stay put with whatever you have. The point is the enjoy music.

Wise words....to anyone thinking of upgrading when they have a system that sounds nice to their ears. But I think that to most people on this forum upgraditis is ingrained, so the question is always how to make changes successfully, which varies from person to person - some people are happy to do lots of incremental steps, trying to ensure a balanced system at every step, others want the fewest relatively big steps to get to whatever to them is the pinnacle, accepting any skewing of balance that might happen at times. A few start out with little or noninterest in upgrading - and few reach a stage where they downgrade and seem happier.

If you have the room and budget, even if it means saving for a little longer, I would recommend audition ATC SCM40 as the speakers to build your system around for the long term. IMHO they are a considerable step up from both SCM19 and SCM19A actives in sound quality. SCM19 take some beating as two way stand mount speakers but the 40s have so much more depth to the sound. The 19s for me in my room don't quite have enough bottom end to satisfy.

FWIW.......

I listened to a pair of ATC SCM19 about 6 months ago with a 272/250 & streamer/SN2 configuration.  The 272/250 was the better sounding of the two configurations but felt that the SN2 worked quite well and believe I could live with a pair with my NDX/SN2. 

You never know, even a mullet looks good on some people......    and some folks on here have reported that their mullet sounds good in their system.

ct posted:

Isn't there always a danger, as we uprgrade components little by little over time, that a possible mullet will occur but balance be re-established upon the next upgrade?

I drove a pair of SCM11 quite happily with a Unitiqute2 for a while, another possible mullet, but i think your existing electronics are better than I had and although the 19 are a different animal to the 11s I used i would have thought it a reasonable step up.

Admittedly the upper volume with the UQ2 was a little limited but i always had the long term in mind and now that I have been able to make further upgrades I couldn't be happier.....

....well, that would have been the case if i hadn't heard the SCM50A at a recent event )

thank you for your wise words and giving some perspective 

The question now is to decide what sort of temporary mullet do I want, but thank you, your words are comforting and re-assuring

Innocent Bystander posted:.

...- some people are happy to do lots of incremental steps, trying to ensure a balanced system at every step, others want the fewest relatively big steps to get to whatever to them is the pinnacle, accepting any skewing of balance that might happen at times. A few start out with little or noninterest in upgrading - and few reach a stage where they downgrade and seem happier.

You've nailed it...  I think you've described me to a T.  I am happy to accept that skewing of balance. The advantage of buying s/h is that if one is totally disappointed with the purchase, one can 'return the animal to the wild' without being hurt too much by the depreciation, still we all want to minimise that hassle.

building a system around a speaker is  costly and fraud with heartache.

it's the other way round, get the best source first, then amplifier and last, speakers.

seakayaker posted:

FWIW.......

I listened to a pair of ATC SCM19 about 6 months ago with a 272/250 & streamer/SN2 configuration.  The 272/250 was the better sounding of the two configurations but felt that the SN2 worked quite well and believe I could live with a pair with my NDX/SN2. 

You never know, even a mullet looks good on some people......    and some folks on here have reported that their mullet sounds good in their system.

Thank you for your reply and your candid insight. I would agree too that 272/250/SCM19 is a really nice system, both simple yet balanced and very difficult to improve without multiplying the investment by a factor of 3 or 4, who knows.  In my case said system is beyond my reach. Now I only need to decide what's the upgrade-path/mullet with the best value in terms of satisfaction but at the same time the most potential (as laying the building blocks for what comes next)

Alonso posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:.

...- some people are happy to do lots of incremental steps, trying to ensure a balanced system at every step, others want the fewest relatively big steps to get to whatever to them is the pinnacle, accepting any skewing of balance that might happen at times. A few start out with little or noninterest in upgrading - and few reach a stage where they downgrade and seem happier.

You've nailed it...  I think you've described me to a T.  I am happy to accept that skewing of balance. The advantage of buying s/h is that if one is totally disappointed with the purchase, one can 'return the animal to the wild' without being hurt too much by the depreciation, still we all want to minimise that hassle.

And indeed, that is largely how my system developed over decades, with much bought secondhand.

Stringerbell posted:

The 19s will expose the SN2 , as was it is : a little forward sounding amp, that is great at imposing its will to shy speakers. The 19s are not shy at all. You instead need finesse and quality upfront.

Valuable insight. I'd concur the SN2 is fast, forward, and I'd add exposing in it's own right. Possibly too much to pair with speakers already on the analytical side. The Nait XS is warmer and more forgiving. I'd caution Alonso not to think in terms of pure amplification when considering the SN2 vs Nait XS. Power and command to be sure, but the SN2 has a far more aggressive presentation.

analogmusic posted:

building a system around a speaker is  costly and fraud with heartache.

it's the other way round, get the best source first, then amplifier and last, speakers.

 

Not everyone agrees with this - see the current thread And the new, modern-day cardinal rule of the Naim forum is .... which has some detailed discussion of this.

IS it a NAIM forum or an ATC one? So many speakers out there.Got tired of this massive active passive attack.what about you?