Fell in love with ATC SCM19s but fear The Mullet

Alonso,

my 2 cents twice at the same time (which makes 4 cents actually).

1 cent: if I may dare, stop reading too many posts: some opinions are carved in the stone, like they have just come down from the Sinai. Some here are not apodictic, they're DEFINITIVE. I distrust this kind of approach. HH can afford to be a little trenchant sometimes – he's experienced and knows what he writes –  but not everyone is HH, not even if they try to use his style. If you see what I mean.

2 cent: Are you sure, absolutely sure, that your current system has something wrong? I read a review of it on HiFi+ a little ago, and they said that after some run in it was wonderfully balanced and musically engaging. If you ache for a sum to spend, why not demo an XP5XS on your source?

Best,

Massimo

Some like to listen. And some like to talk.

Hope it turns out, Alonso.

C.

leni v posted:

IS it a NAIM forum or an ATC one? So many speakers out there.Got tired of this massive active passive attack.what about you?

If it sounds better...

One thing about ATC active speakers  is remarkable value for money compared to active bi- or tri-amping, and all else being equal active beats passively crossed over speakers. The challenges of course once one has found a speaker that sounds ‘right’  are the “all else being equal”, and getting the amplification to suit. Speakers with inbuilt amps solve the latter, and if they sound ‘right’ to the buyer then job done.

Alonso posted:

I do apologise if I didn’t express appropriately

Would a Would a ND5XS>Supernair2>ATC SCM19 represent a mullet where’s as a ND5XS>NAC202>NAP200>ATC SCM19 wouldn’t?

 

I had that source and amp driving some older Dynaudio floorstanders which are probably as hard to drive - worked sublimely.

Don't get hung up on the theory of amp/speaker compatibility - Naim amps (and plenty of others these days) are designed to drive most things in the real world. Your SCM19s aren't that difficult in comparison to some and the Supernait 2 will gobble them up.

Massimo Bertola posted:

 . If you ache for a sum to spend, why not demo an XP5XS on your source?

I'm pretty sure the OP said he couldn't afford to spend more on the source.

leni v posted:

IS it a NAIM forum or an ATC one? So many speakers out there.Got tired of this massive active passive attack.what about you?

Well it’s clearly an ATC thread. What would you expect people to talk about on it!?

joerand posted:

Valuable insight. I'd concur the SN2 is fast, forward, and I'd add exposing in it's own right. Possibly too much to pair with speakers already on the analytical side. The Nait XS is warmer and more forgiving. I'd caution Alonso not to think in terms of pure amplification when considering the SN2 vs Nait XS. Power and command to be sure, but the SN2 has a far more aggressive presentation.

Thank you Joe for this! - Would you mind explaining the underlined/bold concepts in layman terms?I love mosic and the kit reproducing it but I struggle to get my head around terms such as those. Genuine question

Massimo Bertola posted:

Alonso,

my 2 cents twice at the same time (which makes 4 cents actually).

1 cent: if I may dare, stop reading too many posts: some opinions are carved in the stone, like they have just come down from the Sinai. Some here are not apodictic, they're DEFINITIVE. I distrust this kind of approach. HH can afford to be a little trenchant sometimes – he's experienced and knows what he writes –  but not everyone is HH, not even if they try to use his style. If you see what I mean.

2 cent: Are you sure, absolutely sure, that your current system has something wrong? I read a review of it on HiFi+ a little ago, and they said that after some run in it was wonderfully balanced and musically engaging. If you ache for a sum to spend, why not demo an XP5XS on your source?

Best,

Massimo

Dear Massimo

First, thank you for taking the time to help me. Second, you got me reaching for the right-click on my mouse to fire up the 'look up' twice (apodictic and trenchant - I'll try to use them in an email today!) 

Re, your first two cents; what can I say, you're right but sometimes its difficult to make these big decisions with incomplete information (i.e. cannot audition everything) so one seeks the advice of the fora, only to end up more confused at the end

Re. your second two cents; No, there is nothing wrong with my system per se, but after listening first to a pair of SCM40, then 11, then 19 I realised that they gave me a level of insight I'd been longing for in my current set up, which is lovely, musical and engaging but lacks that depth of analysis for a lack of a better term. Added to this, when I heard the aforementioned speakers hooked up to serious watts, and heard that slam, that start-stop of bass notes, that conviction, I was sold (or bought?) So it's not that I am aching to spend money, although I can clearly see how my comments would be interpreted that way. Simply put, I am enamoured with ATC's degree of insightfulness, but I am still hooked to Naim's PRaT with serious muscle behind .... 

Sometimes I wonder if this is no different to the guy who drives the perfectly acceptable 328i, and on a weekend test drives an M5.... now he wants to sell 'part of his 328 to somehow cobble together that M5 (!) - the guy needs to accept that his pockets do not stretch to an M5, not everybody can have whatever they desire...

I’ve been dipping in and out of this thread and there are certainly some interesting views, some of which I agree with and many I don’t. The one that makes the most sense to me is that from Analogmusic, near the beginning of the thread. The reason is this:

Alonso has a wonderfully balanced system, though I don’t understand why he has two pairs of speakers - selling one set would free up funds. It’s a fool’s game to get set on a pair of speakers unless one has the funds to buy the appropriate electronics to drive them. In this case, Alonso doesn’t. Adding the ATCs to the ND5 and Nait XS is not a good idea, and swapping the Nait for a Supernait will make things worse. The ND5 is simply not up to it. The Motive 2s are super speakers, so I’d do exactly as AM suggested - upgrade the source, then the amp, then the speakers. 

If Alonso insists on getting the speakers first he should be prepared to spend on something like an NDX or NDX2, and a 282,hicap and 250. Alonso will say ‘but I’ve said I don’t have that sort of money and, anyway, I’m keeping my ND5xs because I like it’. To which I’d say, ‘well then, don’t get the speakers’. It’s really very simple. Source first is the way to approach an upgrade, unless, as I said above, you will have the funds to rebalance the system in fairly short order.

Massimo has a far greater understanding of the English language that I do, and being an ignorant pleb I had to look up the meaning of ‘trenchant’. So I’ve been honing up my trenchant skills in this post! I do hope our friend Alonso finds it helpful. 

One speaker Alonso could try, which will provide the insight and slam, but without being a mullet and requiring a shed load of expenditure, is a pair of used Naim Allaes. £900. They will work with the existing electronics and will also show the benefit of any future upgrades. 

hungryhalibut posted:

I do hope our friend Alonso finds it helpful. 

All comments have made me see things from multiple, and sometimes unexpected, angles - It's been incredibly helpful. I sincerely thank you all

Alonso,
here is my upgrade path if i was in your shoes / or if i was doing all over again
1) add a hugo to my nd5xs
even if, i never tried my former xs with the 19s, I'm sure nd5xs + hugo + xs will make great music.  the first time i heard the 19s was with the shoebox heed elixir partnered with a hugo ( + Bluesound node) . This is all most people will ever need
2) I will evaluate things. You may want more
3) If the upgrade bug is still here. I will then add 202/hcdr
4) replace the xs by a 200
5)stay away/retire from the forum or contribute only to the music room and just listen music ...

If you are interested in further steps after all of this, it means that you should consider seeking help outside this forum ( ...of a qualified therapist) like many of us

if you want to experience some of what you loved of the ATC SCM19 but without having the problem of a mullet, I would recommend Dynaudio EMIT 20 speakers.

They are 600 GBP brand new, lower if used or ex-demo - and will give you something to smile about and get those feet tapping.

As usual, audition before buying.

To me the ND5XS, Nait XS and the scm19 seems a perfectly balanced system.  Adding proper support and proper cables should iron any wrinkles out.

If this discussion was based around the ATC scm20, then I could see what all the hoohar was about.

TOBYJUG posted:

To me the ND5XS, Nait XS and the scm19 seems a perfectly balanced system.  Adding proper support and proper cables should iron any wrinkles out.

If this discussion was based around the ATC scm20, then I could see what all the hoohar was about.

Hi Toby and thank you for dropping by.... I was just about to trade all my Naim gear for a solar powered Roberts radio and move to Peru.... but to answer your question, the whole discussion was based around the SCM19 (the curvy-wurvy ones)

Tobyjug , have you heard that system, or something close to it ? if so what was it ?

Stringerbell posted:

Tobyjug , have you heard that system, or something close to it ? if so what was it ?

Something close.   At a hifi show demo several years ago using the entry level classic line cdp and integrated from Electrocompaniet used with mega mullet speakers Avalon's cheapest and Wilsons first Duette.   These are probably nearest at price, performance and watts etc (apart from the speakers, of course).

First demoed using standard good quality support and cables that a respectful dealer would recommend as a first, then with mid level Nordost cables and similar level support, then with high level Nordost cables and serious support.

Each time the two Electro's lapped up the care to optimise them, turning on its head where source first really starts, which was the point of the demo.

Can Alonso share with us what is the system he heard the ATC speakers ?

including source , cables , amplifier etc .... and of course the rack / support 

TOBYJUG posted:

Something close.   At a hifi show demo several years ago using the entry level classic line cdp and integrated from Electrocompaniet used with mega mullet speakers Avalon's cheapest and Wilsons first Duette.   These are probably nearest at price, performance and watts etc (apart from the speakers, of course).

First demoed using standard good quality support and cables that a respectful dealer would recommend as a first, then with mid level Nordost cables and similar level support, then with high level Nordost cables and serious support.

Each time the two Electro's lapped up the care to optimise them, turning on its head where source first really starts, which was the point of the demo.

In the spirit of full disclosure, i was hoping something a little closer. But i guess having heard some of these components together is a bit overrated these days. I agree with you that cables and support do a difference , but i won't go as far as saying that they will fix a source.

Alonso

If you cannot afford the 19s, or want to upgrade the amp as well,  and want to go with ATC perhaps you could have a listen to the SCM 11s - I have recently bought a secondhand pair after listening to the 19s and several other brands.  They are not as good as the 19s but great value either new and secondhand and I am very happy with them

Bob

I agree, I had the SCM12s, the predecessor of the 11s and I really enjoyed them... a friend has them now so I still get to have a listen every now and then.

Shropshire Hills posted:

Alonso

If you cannot afford the 19s, or want to upgrade the amp as well,  and want to go with ATC perhaps you could have a listen to the SCM 11s - I have recently bought a secondhand pair after listening to the 19s and several other brands.  They are not as good as the 19s but great value either new and secondhand and I am very happy with them

Bob

Hi Bob, thank you for chipping in

I had a look at your system: Nova>250DR>SCM11 

(Id love a system like that!)

Can you share with me how did you arrive to that system? What was your journey like? 

Also; what swayed you towards the 11 as opposed to the 19? Surely it wasn’t lack of muscle.... 

Shropshire Hills posted:

Alonso

If you cannot afford the 19s, or want to upgrade the amp as well,  and want to go with ATC perhaps you could have a listen to the SCM 11s - I have recently bought a secondhand pair after listening to the 19s and several other brands.  They are not as good as the 19s but great value either new and secondhand and I am very happy with them

Bob

PS: You said  “If you cannot afford the 19s, or want to upgrade the amp as well”  did you mean to say “and do not want to upgrade the amp as well” ? 

My apologies if I’m missing something. 

Hi Alonso,

 with the single exception of the SN2 I have no direct experience with any of the components mentioned. Because of this I can’t and won’t give you any suggestions in this regard.

The one thing I keep asking myself is if you can be satisfied with any ATC-less system. Or to put it in a different way: has listening to the ATCs altered your expectations in a fundamental way?

If this has happened to you, there’s really no question. You have to get a pair and have several options laid out from other members. If not, slow down, grab the beverage of your choice and a bunch of good music. Play with your daughter etc. This is what I do in situations like these.

the danger of falling in love with a speaker without a full understanding of it is that made them sing in the first place, is huge

Of course one can always live in blissful ignorance, that is until the day you listen to the same speakers properly driven with a source capable of it. Then the penny drops.

How do I know this.... well from personal experience.

I too thought the B&W 805s speakers were fantastic on my 202/200, and a squeezebox touch for a source, then I had either the good luck, or bad luck to hear my speakers driven from a CD555/552/500.

These are very high resolution speakers, and did they sound awesome in a 500 series system.

I sold the speakers soon afterwards..... even though I had a DAC V1 for a source by then, but somehow it just wasn't as musical once I heard better...

It is much better to have a balanced system than a mullet. of course the mullet may sound rather nice, and until one hears those speakers in the right system, one just doesn't know what one is missing.

But the TV might be more entertaining than listening to music, and the system might not get one lost in the music....

Anyway - speakers are speakers, for me, the real magic begins at the source, and whatever else is after the source, is only trying to preserve and do the least possible damage to that delicate signal.