Fell in love with ATC SCM19s but fear The Mullet

Personally although I havent heard B&W 805, its bigger sibling, the 802D2, didn’t impress me so I am not surprised if the 805 proved lacking.

If you get a great speaker, it can not only sound great with the starting system (assuming it does, to the owner’s ears) - then with any other equipment upgrades they would just sound better and better. 

Much about source importance vs speaker importance in other threads, including a current one as I’ve already mentioned - but I‘m not sure SCM19 it is much of a mullet anyway, as it is neither a big nor very expensive speaker.

Hi Alonso

Apologies for my delay in replying- we are on holiday in the Austrian Tyrol and I have just had a lovely evening walk around the local area.

I will answer your second question first. What I meant was if you are thinking of spending some of your budget on upgrading your amp (as some people here suggest) then you will have less money  to spend on speakers and so you could choose 11s instead of 19s. The 19s are definitely better than the 11s and have a superb mid/bass driver but I think they both have the same tweeter which I find very realistic with vocals and acoustic music, particularly piano jazz. I have a small listening room of only 3.5m x 3.7m and the 11s sound just right whereas the 19s were a little too powerful 

You also asked about my system.  I bought the Nova to experience the new streaming platform and to simplify the box count with a long term aim of moving on to a 272 replacement/250DR and switching the Nova to a second system. An opportunity arose to purchase a good secondhand 250DR from a respected Forum member in readiness for the upgrade. It sounds better but not by a big margin. It now looks like the 272 replacement is a long way off if it ever happens. I am not sure where I will go next. Perhaps trade in the Nova for an NDX2 and save up for a 282/Hicap or sell the 250DR as well and add an SN2 to the NDX2. I’m not too worried about it for now and I am just enjoying the music.

If I can persuade SWMBO to accept the hifi in the lounge which is bigger than my current music room I would be tempted to demo a pair of ATC SCM 19As with the Nova (and swap the Nova for the 272 replacement if it ever appears)

Bob

well Simon-in-suffolk drove those SCM19 with a 252/SC/250.2 and a Chord Hugo DAC with a Hi-line.

And now he has a 552 preamp with the same speakers..... 

There's just something about a ND5XS with a Nait XS and Neat Motive 2.... call it foot tapping, engagement, musicality..... Maybe the room isn't right, maybe NACA5 needs to be re-soldered..... 

It's the same with my Dynaudio... I've speaker very high resolution speakers that cost 5 to 10 times what mine cost on 500 series systems, and boy are they good, but when my foot starts tapping on my system and I'm lost in the music... the extra resolution and bandwidth doesn't matter to me anymore.... and the Nait XS is a very engaging and addictive amplifier with it's matching source... the ND5XS...

Shropshire Hills posted:

Hi Alonso

Apologies for my delay in replying- we are on holiday in the Austrian Tyrol and I have just had a lovely evening walk around the local area.

I will answer your second question first. What I meant was if you are thinking of spending some of your budget on upgrading your amp (as some people here suggest) then you will have less money  to spend on speakers and so you could choose 11s instead of 19s. The 19s are definitely better than the 11s and have a superb mid/bass driver but I think they both have the same tweeter which I find very realistic with vocals and acoustic music, particularly piano jazz. I have a small listening room of only 3.5m x 3.7m and the 11s sound just right whereas the 19s were a little too powerful 

You also asked about my system.  I bought the Nova to experience the new streaming platform and to simplify the box count with a long term aim of moving on to a 272 replacement/250DR and switching the Nova to a second system. An opportunity arose to purchase a good secondhand 250DR from a respected Forum member in readiness for the upgrade. It sounds better but not by a big margin. It now looks like the 272 replacement is a long way off if it ever happens. I am not sure where I will go next. Perhaps trade in the Nova for an NDX2 and save up for a 282/Hicap or sell the 250DR as well and add an SN2 to the NDX2. I’m not too worried about it for now and I am just enjoying the music.

If I can persuade SWMBO to accept the hifi in the lounge which is bigger than my current music room I would be tempted to demo a pair of ATC SCM 19As with the Nova (and swap the Nova for the 272 replacement if it ever appears)

Bob

‘Well respected Forum member’. Nice one. 

HH Perhaps you prefer ‘Elder Statesman’? 

Alonso I think the Nait XS is one of Naim’s most underrated amplifiers. I’ve twice owned one and both were bought secondhand and sounded great. 

Shropshire Hills posted:

Hi Alonso

Apologies for my delay in replying- we are on holiday in the Austrian Tyrol and I have just had a lovely evening walk around the local area.

I will answer your second question first. What I meant was if you are thinking of spending some of your budget on upgrading your amp (as some people here suggest) then you will have less money  to spend on speakers and so you could choose 11s instead of 19s. The 19s are definitely better than the 11s and have a superb mid/bass driver but I think they both have the same tweeter which I find very realistic with vocals and acoustic music, particularly piano jazz. I have a small listening room of only 3.5m x 3.7m and the 11s sound just right whereas the 19s were a little too powerful 

You also asked about my system.  I bought the Nova to experience the new streaming platform and to simplify the box count with a long term aim of moving on to a 272 replacement/250DR and switching the Nova to a second system. An opportunity arose to purchase a good secondhand 250DR from a respected Forum member in readiness for the upgrade. It sounds better but not by a big margin. It now looks like the 272 replacement is a long way off if it ever happens. I am not sure where I will go next. Perhaps trade in the Nova for an NDX2 and save up for a 282/Hicap or sell the 250DR as well and add an SN2 to the NDX2. I’m not too worried about it for now and I am just enjoying the music.

If I can persuade SWMBO to accept the hifi in the lounge which is bigger than my current music room I would be tempted to demo a pair of ATC SCM 19As with the Nova (and swap the Nova for the 272 replacement if it ever appears)

Bob

+1  The smaller ATC might be a great alternative, and the saved monies (or monies to be saved up) could be used for source improvement — a s/h Naim DAC or s/h Chord 2Qute. I rather liked the 2Qute when demo’ing my speakers (Heresy alert — I bought my speakers from non-Naim dealer...). Both NDac and 2Qute are available in the used market for reasonable prices, especially the Naim DAC if one has some patience. Personally, I feel the “threat” of battery failure with the Hugo 1 is rather stressful... And in the more distant future, an amp upgrade — and both your source and speaker would be ready for that... 

Massimo Bertola posted:

 

1 cent: if I may dare, stop reading too many posts: some opinions are carved in the stone, like they have just come down from the Sinai. Some here are not apodictic, they're DEFINITIVE. I distrust this kind of approach. HH can afford to be a little trenchant sometimes – he's experienced and knows what he writes –  but not everyone is HH, not even if they try to use his style. If you see what I mean.

 

Hi Massimo, 

I reckon I've been the first to be definitive in my statements, or rather trenchant for what it's worth, by the way, did you get the choice of listening to a proper ATC based system since we last met?

What prompted me to participate here? Well, much as I like most of Naim products can't help feeling they all worked fine under certain circumstances, i.e  sensible system matching;, a statement one would agree quite easily with ,especially with passive ATCs, the most unique design  I've ever stumbled into and a long journey if staying with Naim to get on well with.

So far I've either known people with superb naim/atc systems or even more who have turned to the active versions either entry or classic, tower etc. and lots like me who could have lived better with their lesser naim equipment and  any of the many speakers which mate well with.

Some abandoned the ship, others kept sailing in a storm but all agree where the port was.

Finally, you're definitely  right, one should never be biased and make up his own mind or knowledge after extensive listening and that it's especially true when somebody's comments may seem a painful flea in the ear.

analogmusic posted:

 

There's just something about a ND5XS with a Nait XS and Neat Motive 2.... call it foot tapping, engagement, musicality..... Maybe the room isn't right, maybe NACA5 needs to be re-soldered..... 

 

But what is very engaging to one person might not be to another, or what the Neats do may not be as satisfying as what ATCs do - speakers more than anything are so personal in their presentation, and therefore important to satisfaction.

My views are based solidly on experience, with isolated speakers over the years reinforcing my auditioning some years ago of 12 or 13 speakers all at the same price point as one another (equivalent to around £2.5k today), when 9 or 10 sounded so bad to me that I rejected them within minutes. Only 3 made it beyond a single track listening, and just two on through a variety of music types, with then a clear winner. I was shocked at the variation at what in those days was a quite high price, not many more expensive speakers existing. But other people presumably liked the other speakers, or they wouldn’t have sold at all, and one in particular still has people rating them highly today although I didn’t like them at all (Gale 401). My experience was obviously not a robust survey, yet it is clear to me that i) speakers are very far from being perfect reproducers (or they would be more similar in sound), and ii) it would not be surprising for any indivdual to find that their personal preference is overall in the minority.

Those speakers stayed with me for some 15 years, and their successor (their big brother, with same sound character just better) stayed with me for more than 25 years, the speakers never tiring me, but simply improving with various source and amp changes along the way. I had hit upon a sound that I loved, and quality of speaker to do justice to anything fed to them, and it seems the OP has, though I am unclear whether his indicated preference is simply because they and the ‘house sound’ simply sound great to him,  or whether his preference is based on comparative listening.

Stringerbell posted:

Alonso,
here is my upgrade path if i was in your shoes / or if i was doing all over again
1) add a hugo to my nd5xs
even if, i never tried my former xs with the 19s, I'm sure nd5xs + hugo + xs will make great music.  the first time i heard the 19s was with the shoebox heed elixir partnered with a hugo ( + Bluesound node) . This is all most people will ever need
2) I will evaluate things. You may want more
3) If the upgrade bug is still here. I will then add 202/hcdr
4) replace the xs by a 200
5)stay away/retire from the forum or contribute only to the music room and just listen music ...

If you are interested in further steps after all of this, it means that you should consider seeking help outside this forum ( ...of a qualified therapist) like many of us

Christopher_M posted:

Some like to listen. And some like to talk.

Some are seeking re-assurance via the forum.

Maybe the better route in that case is to invite friends over for a listening session. No need for them to be audiophiles, in fact better if they're not. Just folks you think will provide honest responses to what they're hearing in your room. You'll actually be able to see how engaged they are with the music. If that matters to you, then go from there.

Alonso posted:

joerand posted:

Valuable insight. I'd concur the SN2 is fast, forward, and I'd add exposing in it's own right. Possibly too much to pair with speakers already on the analytical side. The Nait XS is warmer and more forgiving. I'd caution Alonso not to think in terms of pure amplification when considering the SN2 vs Nait XS. Power and command to be sure, but the SN2 has a far more aggressive presentation.

Thank you Joe for this! - Would you mind explaining the underlined/bold concepts in layman terms?I love mosic and the kit reproducing it but I struggle to get my head around terms such as those. Genuine question

Sure (with apologies for to frequent readers because I've said this before). I had first the Nait XS then the SN2, each for about three years. I jumped to upgrade to the SN2 for all it's immediate hi-fi aspects. For one thing, it's additional 20-watts drove my speakers with better command. The SN2 is faster in that it hits transients harder with more impact on the approach and cleaner decay. Great for percussion in my rock music listening and very tight in that regard. The SN2 is forward with mid-range, notably on the vocals and lead guitar; they are heard more prominently in the mix. The SN2 is more aggressive in that the overall combination of these factors plays more "in your face". An up-front, prominent presentation that exposes varied recording qualities. For me this meant poorer recordings played with a harsh signature. At the same time, quality recordings played sublimely. The middle ground becomes marginal.

Contrast this to the Nait XS. Not as fast or hard-hitting on transients, slower decay, but with a more pleasing mix of mids in it's overall frequency balance. Bass is bouncier, not as tight. The result is a smoother and more relaxed presentation.

So the SN2 is cleaner and truer to the source material. The Nait XS is warmer and more forgiving of poorer source quality. The net result of this, for me, was that the SN2 had me listening to the upper tier of my recordings while with the Nait XS a far greater portion of holdings satisfied me. The greatest aspect of the Nait XS was how consistently musically engaging it was over my entire catalog.

You are considering pairing a clean and analytical speaker(ATC 19) with a clean, analytical, and aggressive amp (SN2). Your best quality recordings will likely play great. OTOH, the lesser stuff may play harsh and you risk alienating yourself from some music you could otherwise enjoy.

Folks often talk here about "system balance", especially where sources are concerned. I'd advocate that "system matching" is equally important, especially where speakers and amplification are concerned.

joerand posted:

... The SN2 is faster in that it hits transients harder with more impact on the approach and cleaner decay. Great for percussion in my rock music listening and very tight in that regard. The SN2 is forward with mid-range, notably on the vocals and lead guitar; they are heard more prominently in the mix. The SN2 is more aggressive in that the overall combination of these factors plays more "in your face". An up-front, prominent presentation that exposes varied recording qualities. For me this meant poorer recordings played with a harsh signature. At the same time, quality recordings played sublimely. The middle ground becomes marginal.

Contrast this to the Nait XS. Not as fast or hard-hitting on transients, slower decay, but with a more pleasing mix of mids in it's overall frequency balance. Bass is bouncier, not as tight. The result is a smoother and more relaxed presentation.

So the SN2 is cleaner and truer to the source material. The Nait XS is warmer and more forgiving of poorer source quality. The net result of this, for me, was that the SN2 had me listening to the upper tier of my recordings while with the Nait XS a far greater portion of holdings satisfied me. The greatest aspect of the Nait XS was how consistently musically engaging it was over my entire catalog.

You are considering pairing a clean and analytical speaker(ATC 19) with a clean, analytical, and aggressive amp (SN2). Your best quality recordings will likely play great. OTOH, the lesser stuff may play harsh and you risk alienating yourself from some music you could otherwise enjoy.

Folks often talk here about "system balance", especially where sources are concerned. I'd advocate that "system matching" is equally important, especially where speakers and amplification are concerned.

This is excellent. Thank you Joe. it makes total sense.  I am just catching up with last night's comments. I think it's rude not to acknowledge comments and be thankful for the time time people take to help, especially if they actually contribute to the discussion and enlighten others less learned like my self. Thank you.  

Re. your specific comment about the SN2 and the Nait XS. I see parallels between the ATC 11/19 and the Motives 2/3 I've owned for years, in the sense that the Motives too are forgiving, they tend to make poor recordings sound lovely. What hooked me to the ATC sound was exactly what you mention, early Ramones sounds raw and visceral, sometimes awfully recorded but  at the same time,  true to that 'era'/recording style, and ultimately production budget I'd say!. At the same time, Adele or Daft Punk or FleetwoodMac are just, sublime. I like that honesty.

Something else, and I guess this is not just particular to ATC, but I could easily find the upper limits of the off-the-shelf Peerless drivers Bob Surgeoner uses in the Motives.... In contrast to this, my jaw got slowly closer to the ground when I saw how the  ATC 19 and even the 11 could take increments of the volume dial past midnight without breaking a sweat.  

There are a few more virtues of ATC that made me close my search on loudspeakers, but those are the most salient ones at the moment. 

Re. System matching: This is one of the reasons why I have decided not to sell neither my Nait XS nor my Motives. I'll keep them as the lovely balanced system they are, whether in storage for a future second system or as a back up system if I am not entirely happy with the mulletising 19s. 

So yes, I need to make up my mind if to go for the SCM11, as many of you have suggested (which would achieve a more balanced system sooner, when paired with the ND5XS/NAITXS) or.... go for the SCM19 in view to having a pair of loudspeakers 'ahead' of my system (i.e. a mullet)  but that will allow me to bring the rest of components 'up to speed in time' 

???? ALONSO wrote,....◾This is excellent.Thank you Joe.it makes total sense.I am just catching up with last night's comments. I think it's rude not to acknowledge comments and be thankful for the time time people take to help,especially if they actually contribute to the discussion and enlighten others less learned like my self. Thank you.◾ 

????????????????.

/Peder????