A reflection on mullets, falling in love and ignorance...

Posted by: Alonso on 19 June 2018

I thought I'd take a comment Analog made out of the original thread because leaving it there might risk a gem to remain buried, and because its relevance goes beyond a discussion of models and brands 

Analogmusic:

The danger of falling in love with a speaker without a full understanding of what made them sing in the first place, is huge. Of course one can always live in blissful ignorance, that is until the day you listen to the same speakers properly driven with a source capable of it. Then the penny drops... It is much better to have a balanced system than a mullet. Of course the mullet may sound rather nice, and until one hears those speakers in the right system, one just doesn't know what one is missing

Analog has actually managed to articulate something I've been struggling to put into words for ages.  

When I first heard the SCM40s at home, I felt they were the bee's knees, the dog's testicles, (for our non-native speakers " the best of the best") What was driving them? Exactly what you're dreading, the Nait XS with the ND5XS! (I can hear the pitchforks against the sharpening wheel now) - A text book definition of a mullet system was giving me an amazing sonic experience. Why? because I did not know better. And that is exactly my point, a point that analog managed to articulate "The mullet may sound rather nice, and until one hears those speakers in the right system, one just doesn't know what one is missing"

It was then and there that I discovered the sound I was seeking for years (regardless of the lesser electronics fronting them). Yes, I was cognisant that the system could be improved, that a better source, a better, amp, a better interconnect, a better mains supply, would make things better, but what I was hearing was amazing. Nothing sounded broken, nothing sounded bad, on the contrary, it was blissful. My next experience a few years down the line was with the SCM11 and then the 19, also with my Nait XS, same as above - fell in love even more. During the demo, I swapped the Nait XS with a NAP250, there was more of everything, yes, it was better, but nothing was broken before, it was just degrees of 'nicer' 

The point I am trying to make is summed up by Richard in the paragraph below [from another thread], specifically in the underlined section; 

Richard Dane :

... I feel the NAP250 is as much amp as you would want to put on the end of the Uniti - possibly too much, hence Naim's recommendation of a NAP200.  It's not that it will sound bad with a NAP250 - I'm sure it will be great - it's mainly an issue of cost vs benefit.  Ultimately the pre section of the Uniti will be the limiting factor.

The problem with the source-first discourse is not that it is incorrect in principle, (Richard's example above illustrates it quite nicely) but that is sometimes presented in such a way that suggests that lesser electronics, when fronting 'better' loudspeakers is a problem. A mullet does not present  problem of  bad performance' but simply an issue of 'cost vs benefit', where the lesser loudspeaker will impose a ceiling to the better electronics, some people are blissfuly happy with a low ceiling if the ceiling is tall enough for them.

 

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by analogmusic

It’s quite easy to write off cables without hearing some of the best like superlumina , Vertere and chord music. 

 

 

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by Innocent Bystander
joerand posted:

My experience as well and exactly why I make it a point when demoing to include recordings of "lesser quality" that otherwise musically engage me. An over-exposing source that compromises engagement can be a mullet. Unless you plan to play only your superior recordings at home, why use them exclusively when demoing gear?

Very relevant question - one should use at least a range of  favourite recordings of vatying quality, as well as things that might reveal particular strengths or weaknesses.

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by joerand
analogmusic posted:

The issue is that very high resolution speakers with a matching bandwidth expose the mistakes that lesser sources, and indeed lesser capable amps make while playing music

sunbeamgls posted:

There are many sources that cost mega bucks that I wouldn't give shelf room to, compared to more modestly priced,  but musically very capable components.  I was recently reminded of this when sampling a very expensive upper range source compared to its mid range equivalent.  The upper range product was technically brilliant at extracting information from the media but was very much a backward step in terms of musical engagement. So the mid range component, at half the price,  was definitely the better source musically and the one that 'deserves'  investment further down the chain.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I prefer to get speakers with the best musicL capability that I can afford, before seeking to get a source with the best musical capability

joerand posted:

A realization I came to once I got a quality 200-watt integrated with a pre-amp signature that ticked all my boxes. I could bring home virtually any mainstream speaker for demo with the confidence I could successfully command them. Having previously sorted racking, room treatment and cables, that left the speaker/room interaction my only concern.

Four valid points that demonstrate no hard-fast rules exist in the world of hi-fi, price is no determinant, which component comes first is a cyclical argument, and there's an individual learning curve to gained along the way.

Has anyone here actually built their end system, first try, according to some prescribed methodology? I believe mullets exist only as fodder on audiophile forums, notably this one.

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by Innocent Bystander
analogmusic posted:

it's about allocation of funds within a limited budget.

so the OP wants to buy a 2000 GBP speaker.

But could that 2000 GBP be spend on improving the source or the system....?

That's a question only he can answer with the help of his local dealer. He has to live with his system.

Maybe 1500 GBP towards the source and 600 GBP for Dynaudio Emit 20 speakers, which will give a huge taste of a sound from Dynaudio that makes studio monitors like ATC, while giving a massive dose of Pace Rhythm, and timing... something Dynaudio has understood from the very beginning.

All I can say is once I realised that source first works for me, I now have a Chord Dave, a 282/HC/250DR, and Dynaudio focus 260 speakers.

The speakers are ok, probably I could jump all the way to a Confidence Dynaudio speakers C1, C2 or C4, but my system works for me musically and does all the hi-fi things too and I'm not in a hurry...... That's the crux of the issue for me.

If I never upgrade anything again, I'm happy with what I got.

The key to all this was the Chord Dave, and the 282 preamp, then 250 DR, and last the Focus 260....

 

If I never had the resources to upgrade again I’d have been happy with all systems I’ve had since first finding IMF speakers, though particularly once I switched to Hugo as a DAC (and vinyly deterioration would have become a bugbear if that point was before I added CD. However, that feeling might at any time be challenged were I then to hear somebody else’s system playing the same music sounding significantly better to my ears than did my system.

As the OP’s question from his other thread, yes he needs to make the decision as to where to spend whatever resources he wants or can afford to commit - indeed I assume that wanting ideas and experiences to help towards that is at least part of the reason for his starting the thread. 

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by TOBYJUG

Often with these discussions, percentages of allocating funds towards source,amp,speakers,cables and support comes in to play. Whilst I would be happy to look out for s/h items to increase performance at a budget, I'm less inclined to look out for s/h cables.

Yes with a good deal on old stock or used items traded in and sold on through a trusted dealer, but no when looking through online markets.   True that anything can be faked or messed around with, but cables are especially easy to counterfeit or sold as they were not originally intended with dodgy reterminations.

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by analogmusic

Innocent bystander. 

theoretical discussions are facile and easy but I’ve had the very good luck to hear how my Chord Dave sounds in many different systems including 500 series Naim amps and Sonus Faber speakers that cost as much as A BMW and top Dynaudio ones too.

and I found that a Chord Dave still sounds like a chord Dave even on very modest Naim systems and speakers....

my next purchase if the price is good is the Mscaler for my Dave, not a 252 or 552 preamp or speaker upgrades....

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by Innocent Bystander
analogmusic posted:

Innocent bystander. 

theoretical discussions are facile and easy but I’ve had the very good luck to hear how my Chord Dave sounds in many different systems including 500 series Naim amps and Sonus Faber speakers that cost as much as A BMW and top Dynaudio ones too.

and I found that a Chord Dave still sounds like a chord Dave even on very modest Naim systems and speakers....

my next purchase if the price is good is the Mscaler for my Dave, not a 252 or 552 preamp or speaker upgrades....

 

And I have neither suggested nor thought otherwise! Unless speakers are really, really bad, I think it is very likely that changes in source will be heard, and very possibly enough to appreciate - but that doesn’t mean hearing the music in all its glory. Similarly even using a poor source, let alone anything middling, differences in speaker will be heard. My point is about having the sound character how one likes it - clearly you are sold on the character of Dynaudio, regardless of where in their range that is, and they provide enough for you

As you know, I, too, discovered Dave, but before that Hugo was perfectly adequate and made my system ‘sing’ well. I doubt I’ll want to commit any further funds to my system, so wan’t even consider the Mscaler in the near future - though with progress in digital it may well be that in a decade’s time the sound quality of Dave+MScaler will be available in a package at considerably less that the current cost.

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by analogmusic

But who knows if we will be alive 10 years from now .... 

audio is cheap compared to cars.... you only live once 

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by Gazza

Disagree, cars are cheap by comparison......several thousand parts, many moving, several tons in weight, have the wear and tear of sitting out in hot, cold or wet weather!The bill of material for a Ford Focus at £20 k far exceeds the bill of material for the new ND555 at £20 k with psu. And both can be serviced for a lifetime......It’s all about choices, I like my Naim gear but it’s not a bargain by any means.

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by analogmusic

My bmw is now worth nothing after 10 years of usage

but if I had used that money for a 552/500 it would be worth much more than my bmw 

and in hindsight I wish I had purchased the 552/500 rather than a bmw from the showroom at brand new price 

 

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by Innocent Bystander

And there is more to enjoying life than playing recorded music! And the balance is not running out of money if one does live long.

PS, I’ve  never spent more than £8k on a car.

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by analogmusic

Innocent B

 

You did not need a chord Dave if you had a Hugo .... why did not save tT money for your retirement then ?

I know the answer anyway ... 

Just sayin’

 

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by analogmusic

More to life than playing music???

you can’t say this on the Naim forum !!! Lol....

especialky with the ND555 now available  and some serious amounts of money being spent on it. 

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by Tabby cat
Gazza posted:

Disagree, cars are cheap by comparison......several thousand parts, many moving, several tons in weight, have the wear and tear of sitting out in hot, cold or wet weather!The bill of material for a Ford Focus at £20 k far exceeds the bill of material for the new ND555 at £20 k with psu. And both can be serviced for a lifetime......It’s all about choices, I like my Naim gear but it’s not a bargain by any means.

I suppose we are so lucky living where are in the world and have the consumer spending power that we have.I mean some people in the world are so poor that a £5 radio would be total luxury.

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by Gazza

Yes it take your point, I am very fortunate with what I have.

Posted on: 20 June 2018 by Beachcomber
Innocent Bystander posted:

And there is more to enjoying life than playing recorded music! A

Well of course there is.  There's - er - well, there - um - for instance - er - damn, I thought I had something there...