Soundstage, Depth, Imagery etc

Qlder Brad posted:

I'm curious as you move higher up the Naim family tree, do you get more detail and PRaT or do you also get more of the Soundstage, Depth, Imagery etc.

You asked a compound question. I suppose more detail (resolution) is a given, otherwise why would folks upgrade? As for PRaT, that's inherent in Naim's DNA and can be garnered from any level of gear. Maybe the 'sophistication' of the PRaT increases up the ladder as you gain resolution? OTOH, soundstage, depth and imagery are not necessarily fortes of the Naim sound. Not that you can't glean these attributes, just that Naim may be flatter compared to many other manufacturers.

I think Naim is about accuracy of replay and for some this is paramount.  For my own part I've found a level of replay accuracy blended with greater hi-fi aspects of soundstage, depth, and imagery suits me better, along with a bump to the warm side of neutral. Hence I have a combination of Naim and other makers in my system.

For your part, it sounds as if a flatter presentation suits your odd-shaped room, so welcome to the world of Naim. Word of caution is that it's not necessarily a straight to the top ladder with Naim and their upgrades. There are worthy branches or sidesteps to be considered along the way.

Hi [@mention:74356846566547391]

Nice system. I too use a 272/250 combo. It’s a great system. I have found the soundstage, depth and imagery to be very good, but more so when you sit in the sweet spot, which for me, like many, is at the point of an equilateral triangle, equal distance from the speakers as they are from each other. Just as tip, you might consider changing your speaker cables and interconnects from the Nordost to something a little more Naim friendly of which there are many. 

I too have an odd shaped room with one speaker close to a side wall, and have had issues with soundstage and depth.

Naim gear, especially the sources and used with speakers that are popular with users have if anything a more forward presentation, that comes out into the room rather than falling back behind the speaker boundary.   So as long as you can provide enough space between speakers and listening position.

Picking and choosing the right components for your room and tastes is what everyone agrees on, but it is difficult considering the large number and combination of pieces to put together. Some will disagree, but I feel that with soundstage, depth and imagery - your greatest issue is in finding the right speakers that give these aspects in your listening spot.

 I’d say that sound-stage is a secondary issue with NAIM. I find that that music it reproduces is so engaging, that I don’t have time to over-analyse it. I’m just immersed in it.

As I went up the family tree of Naim, that immersion became greater and more engaging.... a bit addictive I must say....

Indeed.. you get to a point where you cease analysing and instead listen into the musicMandelbrot set style  including the production and recording techniques which are often a key part of the creative process... all of these add to the replay experience.. and can provide a truly immersive experience.

But I’d say a good system should convey a good effective and reasonably accurate soundstage... the higher end Naim components do this with ease... the soundstage from the 552 can be incredible and simply adds to the immersive experience... but if you are having to concentrate on it... then perhaps something is wrong... 

There are speakers that give a massive wide open soundstage even when paired with Naim. Without trying I ended up with a combo that has the most expansively wide soundstage of any non dipole speaker I've heard so far. 

However, I'd not get too hung up on it. I too love a convincing 3d soundstage but unlike clarity, there is definately a threshold past which the soundstage is always "good enough" to never be an issue. 

As long is the soundstage is still above that threshold, I'd not worry about it. To a certain degree it is artificial anyway. Sometimes lower cost components give a huge front to back soundstage by virtue of having less than perfect linear frequency responses which can artificially make some sounds appear further back. And of course, sometimes the effect is in the recording.

I find the issue with Naim and reduced soundstage comes from their speakers more than electronics. 

Since moving to Kudos speakers I find that the super-wide soundstage is back in my room.  My old Cyrus / Mission system used to achieve this, and the effect has been commented on a number of times by visitors. 

For the most part it's nice to have, but I do find it is recording dependent as to whether such a wide soundstage can be a distraction in itself.  If a backing vocal for example comes in to a mix, and sounds outside the room to the left, that creates a nice and believable image.  However, I was listening to some acoustic jazz earlier, and while the impression of depth I find quite good with the recording in question, with the drummer clearly behind the piano, some time there are lighly brushed / tapped symbols that ring out from the very far right, and left.  As the symbols sound distant and so far apart, for me this creates an image of a drummer with go-go-gadget arms, as it sounds like one mighty wide drum kit.  Similar can occur with the two mile wide piano effect.  I wonder if some manufacturers try to avoid this by intentionally narrowing the soundstage.

...actually I didn't mean those types of symbol now I re-read that. 

SongStream posted:

...actually I didn't mean those types of symbol now I re-read that. 

You can edit for 15 minutes. 

I know, but it made me laugh when I read it back and spotted the obvious error, so I thought I'd endure the embarrassment for the benefit of the forum. 

Another factor to think about is room acoustics, sometimes a forgotten factor in trying to maximise the potential of your black boxes. Correct room acoustics is always a difficult problem to solve if your listening in your front room, but can obviously make a considerable difference to soundstage, clarity ect ect

Interesting post/question. Perceived soundstage is yet another of those aspects of music replay which matters more to some listeners than others. I think it's something that Naim amps do not major on. I've heard other good amplification do it better.

That said; I think 'New Naim' sounds more round earth(?) in this regard, than the old CB/Olive kit and Super Lumina seems to reinforce the effect with its silky smooth transparency and clarity. But new Naim electronics/amplification hasn't lost its wonderful PRaT and boogie factor - to these ears at least; though I understand why some people still prefer the ultimate leading-edge dynamic slam of the old style kit; particularly with a vinyl source.

Ultimately though; I think the big hitter in the soundstage business is free-space loudspeaker placement. A friend with PMC 26's on Naim electronics gets a lovely big 3D soundstage. Trouble is; not many of us have the luxury of giving loudspeakers a yard or more of back-space.

John.

J.N. posted:

Interesting post/question. ...

Ultimately though; I think the big hitter in the soundstage business is free-space loudspeaker placement. A friend with PMC 26's on Naim electronics gets a lovely big 3D soundstage. Trouble is; not many of us have the luxury of giving loudspeakers a yard or more of back-space.

John.

Yet my little Proac Tablette 10 are but a few inches from the back wall and ‘disappear’ as a source within a gloriously 3D ‘sound stage’. 

G

Hi everyone, thank you for taking the time to reply. I do love the sound of the 272/250 and it does take me away to a different place, I just find it interesting when I have been listening to some albums for nearly 40 years and only being using Naim for the last two, I am now hearing things that I have never heard before and hearing them in a different way.

Part of the hi fi journey I enjoy, is how the same album can sound different, not better or worse. Just different. 

It is after I have started to go to concerts and Jazz gigs on a regular basis that I have realized that there is very little of that 3D effect in reality. I close my eyes every time for 2 or 3 minutes to look for and hear it. I haven’t been very successful so far. Timbres, textures, cohesion, attacks, extinctions and silences appear to be more important for my listening experience with a reproduction system. ????

Chag -

Indeed, I think the 3D effect is sometimes exaggerated as an artefact. A good stereo field recording of an acoustic concert or band can convey space and positioning ... but other than that.... it isn’t really going to happen for many Instruments miced upto a mixing desk..

3D is an unfortunate way of describing how something is unfolding in time and space.  Brings to mind how movies superimpose flat images in front of and behind each other to trick the eye.

Certainly if someone is listening to a recording and can get a sense of the acoustic size of an area a recording has been recorded - wether artificially enhanced or not, then that's image, depth and soundstaging going on.

I have 2 records (actually one LP and one CD) where there is certainly the illusion of  (in that it is hard to credit it as real) depth.

One is the Purcell music for the funeral of queen Mary, where drummers appear to march very firmly forward from a long behind the speakers and end up almost in your face. The volume of the drums increase as they 'march' creating this illusion.

The other piece if Reed's Transformer and 'Walk on the wild side'; the 'do-dee-do' chorus singers appear in the background and then move forward before the saxomophone kicks in and blares into your face.

Just had to go and play these 2 pieces again, even though grouting the back patio is my defined task for the day. Always need some displacement activity.

Sound field depth varies greatly by how a recording is mixed. To place an instrument at the back of a mix, it is made quieter than the up‑front sounds, and has less top end (because of the way air absorbs high frequencies). Reverb and delay also come into play.

i agree that speakers in free space typically produce better depth of field, but only if that information is actually in the recording.

I agree with Graeme's comments above I have a similar system to Graeme and the Tabs just disappear, right amps and the right speaker for the room.

There is a track called Slomo on the newish Slowdive album, that gets my Soundstage, depth and imagery juices flowing.

A bass line that plays right along above the top of usual soundstaged recordings and gives a feeling of floating in space. Honeyed vintage electric guitar licks drop down like jam from heaven, then washes of flanged noise jets from every corner.  What on some systems could come across as a plodding shoegaze workthrough. On mine it's an exhilarating hifi experience.

I will look for that track on Tidal tonight

Chag... posted:

It is after I have started to go to concerts and Jazz gigs on a regular basis that I have realized that there is very little of that 3D effect in reality. I close my eyes every time for 2 or 3 minutes to look for and hear it. I haven’t been very successful so far. Timbres, textures, cohesion, attacks, extinctions and silences appear to be more important for my listening experience with a reproduction system. ????

Chag -

Seconded

Perol posted:

Chag... posted:

It is after I have started to go to concerts and Jazz gigs on a regular basis that I have realized that there is very little of that 3D effect in reality. I close my eyes every time for 2 or 3 minutes to look for and hear it. I haven’t been very successful so far. Timbres, textures, cohesion, attacks, extinctions and silences appear to be more important for my listening experience with a reproduction system. ????

Chag -

Seconded

I don’t undestand why these discussions always reduce to ‘either/or’. A live concert experience is quite different from listening to a recording. Celebrate their differences I say - and enjoy each for what they are.

G

TOBYJUG posted:

There is a track called Slomo on the newish Slowdive album, that gets my Soundstage, depth and imagery juices flowing.

A bass line that plays right along above the top of usual soundstaged recordings and gives a feeling of floating in space. Honeyed vintage electric guitar licks drop down like jam from heaven, then washes of flanged noise jets from every corner.  What on some systems could come across as a plodding shoegaze workthrough. On mine it's an exhilarating hifi experience.

I know exactly what you mean on this track. Not as good as it was live but hey can't have everything.