CD players

I hope Naim CD players do not go the same way as Nimrod aircraft!

In fact is there a chance Hi-Fi quality CD players could become extinct

nimrodmr2p posted:

I notice that Naim is down to just one CD player

I currently have CD5 XS and would like to keep it going, how long will Naim support it?

Would it be worth buying a new CD5 SI and keeping it in reserve as a back up

I have heard that unused CD player mechanisms can deteriorate if not used, is this so?

Could Naim allow CD users to register with them to receive a message if they propose to discontinue CD to permit a chance to buy one before they become obsolete

I believe that Naim have bought and now store, CD mechanisms for their more expensive players such as the CDS3 and CD555.

I don't think these mechanisms deteriorate with age, but in any batch, some will be better made than others. Naim test then before using them and reject those that are not up to spec.

You will have to ask Naim as to whether they have a stockpile of CD5 XS mechanisms

Sign of times. There are now far better ways of playing back content of a CD. Call it evolution, or better progress...

In the same way folk enjoy vinyl I enjoy CD, I have explored other methods and they require too many compromises

This of course is my opinion

nimrodmr2p posted:

In the same way folk enjoy vinyl I enjoy CD, I have explored other methods and they require too many compromises

This of course is my opinion

I agree, I think, for today.   Our physical media sound great, but my wife was crazy about using the 272 for Spotify when the 552 was at the spa.   When I could only have one DIN input, I missed the choice between vinyl and CD.   My wife was perfectly happy without the choice.

Ther are no compromises whe playing back digital files stored on a local NAS. If anything CD playback is compromised, due to its inherently instable nature.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Ther are no compromises whe playing back digital files stored on a local NAS. If anything CD playback is compromised, due to its inherently instable nature.

That is a very bold statement to make... one which I happen to very much disagree with. Red Book by design is massively reliable and has many data recovery mechanisms that should a data error occur then it can be repaired on the fly.. perhaps not dissimilar to a hard disk... it provides a very stable data source, as indeed should a NAS. Now true a CD can be more prone to physical damage, but reasonably careful handling can mitigate that. To my mind with NAS playback the big variability in many/most setups is the data transmission path over a network. Therefore if you can hear a difference between WAV and FLAC decode on your streamer... then you will almost certainly find different network protocol machine processing affects the SQ in similar but possibly more subtle ways.

I believe CD is more inherently more stable and deterministic in terms of side effects on playback... I never did get round to varying things by putting green felt tip on the edge of my discs.....

When some of us were at the factory in Salisbury recently, Trevor said that the reason they had discontinued the CDX2 was that they could no longer be sure of sourcing enough good quality mechanisms to build new and support the players they had already sold that may come back for repair sometime subsequently. So the stock of mechanisms they held would be kept for servicing already sold players.

From the way he spoke, I'm sure this is the same for all of their CD players and so there is no need to buy another CD player just in case your existing one needs repair in a few years time.

best

David

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Ther are no compromises whe playing back digital files stored on a local NAS. If anything CD playback is compromised, due to its inherently instable nature.

That is a very bold statement to make... one which I happen to very much disagree with. Red Book by design is massively reliable and has many data recovery mechanisms that should a data error occur then it can be repaired on the fly.. perhaps not dissimilar to a hard disk... it provides a very stable data source, as indeed should a NAS. Now true a CD can be more prone to physical damage, but reasonably careful handling can mitigate that. To my mind with NAS playback the big variability in many/most setups is the data transmission path over a network. Therefore if you can hear a difference between WAV and FLAC decode on your streamer... then you will almost certainly find different network protocol machine processing affects the SQ in similar but possibly more subtle ways.

I believe CD is more inherently more stable and deterministic in terms of side effects on playback... I never did get round to varying things by putting green felt tip on the edge of my discs.....

My statement was primarily based not on the stability of data on the CD itself. There is no doubt this is as stable as it gets, within the limitations imposed by the Red Book format.

I was referring to the stability of the mechanical aspects of reading the data in real time. Which seems to be partially confirmed by NAIM, as they are no longer certain to source good enough mechs.

Adam, I have to agree with Simon on this one. The CD format was not arrived at by happenstance. Much research and development by Sony and Philips. A well-mastered redbook CD played via a quality CDP can be a sonic beauty. All my CDs from the late-1980s play perfectly today, not a single issue. Is anyone still spinning a 30-year-old hard drive?

It was interesting at the Signals ND555 event, Jason from Naim explained how they specifically use CD,s that are not more than 62 minuets in length per red book. Apparently beyond that the sound quality deteriorates as the information gets more compressed on the disc. Just another example of Naim attention to detail.

joerand posted:

Adam, I have to agree with Simon on this one. The CD format was not arrived at by happenstance. Much research and development by Sony and Philips. A well-mastered redbook CD played via a quality CDP can be a sonic beauty. All my CDs from the late-1980s play perfectly today, not a single issue. Is anyone still spinning a 30-year-old hard drive?

Joe - I was not writing about a CD itself, but about physical limitations of a CD player as a means of extracting information stored on a CD.

Gazza posted:

 Jason from Naim explained how they specifically use CD,s that are not more than 62 minuets in length

No wonder so many people have been complaining about those Naim demos 

Quite so! 62 minuets in a row must be exhausting!

Gazza, I'm not sure that's quite what Jason said or perhaps meant. More, how the CD555 could sometimes outperform the NDS/555 combo providing the CD555 was using a proper rebook standard CD, which has a restricted playing time of under 80 minutes, perfectly flat and punched perfectly centrally and with a 1.2mm minimum thickness, and a fair wind...

Yes, I think you have captured it much better than I did, thanks Richard

Adam Zielinski posted:

I was referring to the stability of the mechanical aspects of reading the data in real time. Which seems to be partially confirmed by NAIM, as they are no longer certain to source good enough mechs.

Nearly all CD-ROM drives read data accurately real time, even the cheapest of the cheap... and can recover lost data as well in many circumstances.. Yellow Book is even more demanding here than Red Book, and is used for CD-ROM. I believe one is referring to mechanical reliability and the cross talk created from the clocked transport stream when one is referring to optimum transports. The thought that a CD mech some how magically scrambles data that simply some how slightly affects SQ is farsicle. Un recoverable data is typically a brief usually undetectable silence, or occasionally on some systems a static type click... fundamental errors like tracking errors result  in skipping or total  errors result in no play at all. and so would be very apparent to any consumer.

Red Book CD specifies audio to 74 minutes. Increasing this duration relies on decreasing the spiral track pitch on the CD. Many mechanism can read upto 80 minutes, but if above 74 minutes it is not strictly Red Book compliant geometry, and so can’t be guaranteed to be played on a Red Book compliant player. In practice better tolerances and manufacturing processes in more recent CD mechanics has made this less likely to be an issue. However some  CD replicators /writers will limit duration to 74 mins.

nimrodmr2p posted:

In the same way folk enjoy vinyl I enjoy CD, I have explored other methods and they require too many compromises

This of course is my opinion

If you refer to digital streaming you may of course be right  and rate your idea as acceptable as anyone saying quite  the opposite.

But in practice  Naim almost a decade ago demonstrated a ripped cd to sound better than spinning the same content in a physical media (HDX) so conceptually they have the strongest point of all I reckon .

74 minutes because of the 9th

This thread inspired me to play a few CDs today. Not bad...

Stu

Adam Zielinski posted:

Joe - I was not writing about a CD itself, but about physical limitations of a CD player as a means of extracting information stored on a CD.

Yep, I see it now Adam. I made my post while you replied and headed for bed. Seems out of sequence now.

I'll still hold to my point that a CD will outlast a hard drive, plus requires no need for download or back-up. The CD+CDP was the epitome of plug-and-play before PnP ever became a term. 

No "Help! I can't connect", "System won't recognize my NAS", "How to file alphabetically" or "Can't see my album art". Insert a CD, press play, and exactly what you put in comes out. I've never been convinced by any level of streaming I've heard that hi-res is a superior alternative. I think the mathematical extraction details are rationalizations, not necessarily realizations.

Does streaming sound different? Absolutely.

Better? That's completely subjective.

Streaming is an alternate CD transport as far as I am concerned when playing 44.1/16/2 PCM.. and I used to stream my physical CDs long before the current 'streamer' type products and consumer NASs became fashionable  - i really care not about the physical incarnation of the mechanics of how data is stored and recovered - it really doesn't matter - it never did 15 years ago - I don't see why it should magically start mattering in 2018. The  44.1/16/2 PCM media is the same irrespective of the physical source. They key thing is the conversion of that identical discrete digital data into a continuous  analogue signal - and that is where the differences lie. So as far as I am concerned saying CD or 'streaming' is better than the other in terms of SQ - even subjectively - is farcical,  what one really means to say is the analogue signal reconstruction of a particular digital PCM reconstruction chain sounds preferable to another. 

Dear Simon, I have recently come across your posts.  I have placed a post in this forum, CDX Mk2 vs CD5 XS.

I hopefully will be in the market to upgrade my Marantz CD-85 which rolls off it High Frequencies at 15 kHz.  I am 55 years old and have industrial ears.  Possibly I may not hear frequencies this high.  Though it is an apparent hole in my HIFI system.  As I have posted I tend to be Brand loyal having currently owning a Naim Nait XS2 Amplifier.  My CD player rolls off at the top end and my speakers, Celestion SL6si roll off at the bottom end.  A system of compromises that I had no knowledge of purchasing back in 1989.  Possibly it was the best at the time in that particular price band. .  Though not these days and I have been self educated in HIFI as I was a babe in the woods back then and believed the salesman.

The system I find is good for jazz, Diana Krall.  Every thing else, 70's, 80's 90's rock, Bach and Pavarotti is a compromise, but enjoyable.  Though I am ignorantly happy.   With an App on my iPhone I listen to about 88 dB SPL at about one to two metres away from the speakers.  I am happy with this sound level.  Though can on occasion. if my wife allows I do turn the dial a little more CW.  Sound levels unknown.

Simon, would you recommend that I look at a CD5 XS or a CDX Mk2.  Or should I break brand loyalty and look else where?  A Marantz SA-10 or something else for my musical pleasures?

I have no idea where the future is going or is currently at.

Kind regards,

Paul.

Hi Paul, I find the Naim CD players have their own distinctive sound character, and to be fair I have found the same on other higher end CD players from other manufacturers. So it’s about preference of the playback character... if you like the Naim view of sound replay, and you do have the rather fine NaitXS2 amp, then yes, do try the CDX2 and CD5XS. I happen to really like the former... but the later might provide the perfect synergy with your amp. The CDX2 feel like it has a relatively rolled off treble as well.

Simon