Electric Cars - Saviours of our environment or just another fad? (restart)

Do you need one or want one?

BP and Shell are just cashing in, I suspect.  How much does it cost to install a charging-station?  And while you wait for your car to charge you can spend money in the shop.  It's a win-win.

My mate commutes to work in a Nissan Leaf, the second one he's had and he's really happy. I drove the first model he owned and it was mostly quite enjoyable[1], I'd have no issues with using one on a daily basis. 

[1] I don't like modern vehicles so nothing particular against the Leaf 

Guinnless posted:

Do you need one or want one?

BP and Shell are just cashing in, I suspect.  How much does it cost to install a charging-station?  And while you wait for your car to charge you can spend money in the shop.  It's a win-win.

My mate commutes to work in a Nissan Leaf, the second one he's had and he's really happy. I drove the first model he owned and it was mostly quite enjoyable[1], I'd have no issues with using one on a daily basis. 

[1] I don't like modern vehicles so nothing particular against the Leaf 

Oh, definitely a "want" rather than a need.

BP and Shell are not serving their shareholders unless they are cashing in, I guess. Going to a public station to charge your electric car will be a rare event for most users, with the vast majority of charging done at home, or at the "destination" (office or hotel, for example).

What do you have against modern vehicles? Is it their high performance, quiet, civilized ride, their fuel economy, high level of appointments, great handling?

"We've put our $1,000 deposit down on a Tesla Model 3. Delivery expected "Late 2018" according to our Tesla account."

If you don't really want the car, I guess you will be able to sell it for more than you pay. At least, that's what i've heard others hope to do.

I think it's too early to buy into purely electric vehicles. They are overpriced with  limited range and hence limited versatility, Fuel costs are relatively low, but i'm not sure about maintenance and reliability, although the two we have at the airfield have been reliable. They accelerate like lightning and are deadly quiet.

I wouldn't buy, but if I did, it would only be as a second vehicle because of the lack of versatility.

ICE cars are about to become a thing of the past. Various countries have posted the years the ban starts for gas (petrol) & diesel;   China is banning 533 specific models this year,  Norway is the earliest country with a government imposed ban on new ICE car sales starting in 2025,  others are 2030 & 2040.  Some cities are banning diesel cars,  Rome from 2024,  others not far behind.  Auto mnfts are planning to stop ICE development anytime soon,  Volvo will be all electric & hybrid only as from 2019.  

I plan my next UK car to be a hybrid,  I've tried but can't use all electric for all my usual activities. 

A new technology could solve the NOx problem of diesel engines leaving only nitrogen and water from exhaust emission. Politicians may have virtuous intentions in trying to save the planet but they can make big mistakes when pushed to adopt restricting laws too fast. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-...-it-market-two-years

In some cases the making of electricity is enormously polluting. 

cat345 posted:

A new technology could solve the NOx problem of diesel engines leaving only nitrogen and water from exhaust emission. Politicians may have virtuous intentions in trying to save the planet but they can make big mistakes when pushed to adopt restricting laws too fast. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-...-it-market-two-years

In some cases the making of electricity is enormously polluting. 

Interesting article.  Looks promising. I still find it difficult to believe that governments will follow-through on banning ICE as currently presented. It could only really apply to newly registered vehicles, so will leave millions and millions of older vehicles unaffected. People will be reluctant to let go of their older vehicles and meanwhile the new car market could crash, putting thousands and thousands of jobs at risk.  And then there's the commercial market to think about. The whole think look very fraught politically and economically.  I wonder whether there's a bit of political bluff going on ie governments making 'banning' announcements in the hope that it will stimulate the auto industry to invent the sort of solutions described in the Autocrat article?      

I’d buy a Tesla tomorrow if I won the lottery (well, place an order), but otherwise I’ll never afford one.

The most I’ve ever spent on a car is £10k, and I don’t propose to start (though that will increase with inflation). Through judicious purchasing, usually young very high mileage, though some older, that sum has had me some great cars at a small fraction of their new value (most recently a spotless top model Audi TT quattro). I generally keep them for 5-10 years, meaning a net cost of £1-£2k, plus maybe a third of that in maintenance on avearage per year.

I fear that batteries will be the limiting factor in secondhand electric cars, adding a significant replacement cost if the cars are ever cheap enough to buy, for someone who doesn’t feel that motorised transport is worth more than a small proportion of income, though it can be enjoyable to use it.

I have serious doubts about electric vehicle technology stacking up.  I live in London where, like many other cities around the world, a high proportion of households rely upon on street parking for their vehicles.  We don't drive to work either.  So where or how are the vehicles to be recharged?

Tesla is currently making the headlines as much to do with the probability of their survival with a huge financial debt burden and continued manufacturing problems.  Perhaps leasing may be an option, but it would be a brave person to purchase a car from them just now - someone with a secure driveway and charging station.

We're at a bit of a technology cross roads between traditional fossil fuels (petrol/ diesel); hybrid technology (eg Toyota/ Lexus); full electric (eg Tesla); hydrogen (eg Toyota); other?  Difficult to make any call as to where the future lies.

I have a hybrid which does not feel like the future - too heavy; lacking fuel economy; far from ideal handling; uninvolving transmission.  Things can only get better - I hope!!

Peter

Not for me i’m Afraid 

think I will stick with my trusty AMG 6.2l V8

wouldn’t even want an electric toothbrush 

lyndon

lyndon posted:

Not for me i’m Afraid 

think I will stick with my trusty AMG 6.2l V8

wouldn’t even want an electric toothbrush 

lyndon

 

Oooh. Bottled thunder. Lovely!

There might be some electric cars that can accelerate more quickly but none can match the glorious noise an AMG makes. 

MDS posted:

lyndon posted:

Not for me i’m Afraid 

think I will stick with my trusty AMG 6.2l V8

wouldn’t even want an electric toothbrush 

lyndon

 

Oooh. Bottled thunder. Lovely!

There might be some electric cars that can accelerate more quicklybut none can match the glorious noise an AMG makes. 

.....there certainly are. We have a Tesla S and a BMW 3i at work and they accelerate like lightning.....but.....

..............that's about it, so far as I can see.

I'm hanging on to my Mercs and "proper" BMW, thank you !

But on the serious side of emissions etc

is electric vehicles the way forward ?

currently it’s a niche market and mainly confined to big cities 

If electric cars were were bought on mass where would the battery charging infrastructure come from and who pays for it

and for this to work on an environmental platform surely this must be done worldwide, the planet has one atmosphere 

we take electricity for granted here but much of the world has very intermittent supplies, in the Philippines blackouts 2-3 times a week are the norm, cars would only add to the problem 

we must also consider what the rest of the world is doing to keep up with the demand for electricity 

in the Philippines ( I’m a fairly frequent visitor) there’s currently 10 coal fired power stations being built, just to keep the lights on, there is even talk of building a clean coal power station 

south east Asia is building 400 coal power stations

and China is building 700 across a few countries 

lyndon

I've got a Carlsson tuned E-Class with a Sprintbooster, which goes like the proverbial shit off a shovel, but I am always brought back to earth by an E63 which goes up and down our road and makes a much nicer sound...Like you say MDS, "Bottled Thunder".  Would love one, but I know I couldn't afford it, or the extra fuel, or the tyres!

But back on the topic of electric cars and Teslas, idiot boy Gove, 3 days after the French of course, announced that no diesel or petrol vehicles will be sold after 2040 in this country. Like Northpole has said, we don't have the infrastructure to support this at the moment. We have petrol stations which will need to be converted to charging stations....we will need extra power stations to be built for everyone's electric or hybrid vehicles. It typically takes 20 years to plan and build a power station..... Where will Gove be in 2040? Being chaufferred around or relaxing at the care home I guess.... So he won't care....

vintageaxeman posted:

I've got a Carlsson tuned E-Class with a Sprintbooster, which goes like the proverbial shit off a shovel, but I am always brought back to earth by an E63 which goes up and down our road and makes a much nicer sound...Like you say MDS, "Bottled Thunder".  Would love one, but I know I couldn't afford it, or the extra fuel, or the tyres!

But back on the topic of electric cars and Teslas, idiot boy Gove, 3 days after the French of course, announced that no diesel or petrol vehicles will be sold after 2040 in this country. Like Northpole has said, we don't have the infrastructure to support this at the moment. We have petrol stations which will need to be converted to charging stations....we will need extra power stations to be built for everyone's electric or hybrid vehicles. It typically takes 20 years to plan and build a power station..... Where will Gove be in 2040? Being chaufferred around or relaxing at the care home I guess.... So he won't care....

....he doesn't care now, nothing new !.....

Vintageaxeman 

you only live once

i bought my E63 6 years ago when it was 4 years old I haven’t sold it yet on the basis, what would I buy ?

petrol, is about high 20’s on a run and 15 or so round town, tyres last about 18,000 miles I did mine a couple of years ago for £660 and that’s the full on Pirelli P Zero MO’s 

its much cheaper to run than my old Vauxhall Omega 3.2 and much more fun and pleasant with the creature comforts inside, it’s even got air conditioned seats 

as for reliability here’s a list of everything that’s gone wrong with my car so far

lyndon

Smashing, Lyndon. Likewise, my MercyMcMercFace is so reliable.

Mine is nothing like as powerful as yours of course, but it feels really fast.

But it does fetch 40ish on a long run, and 25 to 28 around town....

I bought it at 3yrs old with 3,400 miles on it (a London owner who used the tube all the time. I've done around 35k in it in the last 4 yrs, and not had a single issue. Just one set of tyres, and an independent service each year.

Doesn't turn heads any more, but then neither do I. So we're very well suited! Love my car.

Don Atkinson posted:

vintageaxeman posted:

I've got a Carlsson tuned E-Class with a Sprintbooster, which goes like the proverbial shit off a shovel, but I am always brought back to earth by an E63 which goes up and down our road and makes a much nicer sound...Like you say MDS, "Bottled Thunder".  Would love one, but I know I couldn't afford it, or the extra fuel, or the tyres!

But back on the topic of electric cars and Teslas, idiot boy Gove, 3 days after the French of course, announced that no diesel or petrol vehicles will be sold after 2040 in this country. Like Northpole has said, we don't have the infrastructure to support this at the moment. We have petrol stations which will need to be converted to charging stations....we will need extra power stations to be built for everyone's electric or hybrid vehicles. It typically takes 20 years to plan and build a power station..... Where will Gove be in 2040? Being chaufferred around or relaxing at the care home I guess.... So he won't care....

....he doesn't care now, nothing new !.....

Apparently he's busy tearing up reports on proposals for Customs Unions that a Cabinet subcommittee has prepared.  

What a ludicrous boy. He single-handedly wrecked education in our inner city. Leopards and spots, eh.....

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

vintageaxeman posted:

I've got a Carlsson tuned E-Class with a Sprintbooster, which goes like the proverbial shit off a shovel, but I am always brought back to earth by an E63 which goes up and down our road and makes a much nicer sound...Like you say MDS, "Bottled Thunder".  Would love one, but I know I couldn't afford it, or the extra fuel, or the tyres!

But back on the topic of electric cars and Teslas, idiot boy Gove, 3 days after the French of course, announced that no diesel or petrol vehicles will be sold after 2040 in this country. Like Northpole has said, we don't have the infrastructure to support this at the moment. We have petrol stations which will need to be converted to charging stations....we will need extra power stations to be built for everyone's electric or hybrid vehicles. It typically takes 20 years to plan and build a power station..... Where will Gove be in 2040? Being chaufferred around or relaxing at the care home I guess.... So he won't care....

....he doesn't care now, nothing new !.....

Apparently he's busy tearing up reports on proposals for Customs Unions that a Cabinet subcommittee has prepared.  

That and Boris using the "F" word re business.....just about sums it up....

....but I should really transfer these notes to the "Sleepwalking" thread rather that hi-jacking winky's second go at "E" cars.

BTW I was surprised at Prince Harry's E Type E Car

lyndon posted:

Not for me i’m Afraid 

think I will stick with my trusty AMG 6.2l V8

wouldn’t even want an electric toothbrush 

lyndon

 

ICE cars are so slow, though.

https://www.teslarati.com/vw-i...e-pikes-peak-record/

https://www.teslarati.com/tesl...g-quarter-mile-race/

My MB V12 is starting to have some kind of engine problem, it seems that it is running on 1 engine in stead of 12 engines, never had anything like that before.

So I am starting looking at the Tesla now.

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

vintageaxeman posted:

I've got a Carlsson tuned E-Class with a Sprintbooster, which goes like the proverbial shit off a shovel, but I am always brought back to earth by an E63 which goes up and down our road and makes a much nicer sound...Like you say MDS, "Bottled Thunder".  Would love one, but I know I couldn't afford it, or the extra fuel, or the tyres!

But back on the topic of electric cars and Teslas, idiot boy Gove, 3 days after the French of course, announced that no diesel or petrol vehicles will be sold after 2040 in this country. Like Northpole has said, we don't have the infrastructure to support this at the moment. We have petrol stations which will need to be converted to charging stations....we will need extra power stations to be built for everyone's electric or hybrid vehicles. It typically takes 20 years to plan and build a power station..... Where will Gove be in 2040? Being chaufferred around or relaxing at the care home I guess.... So he won't care....

....he doesn't care now, nothing new !.....

Apparently he's busy tearing up reports on proposals for Customs Unions that a Cabinet subcommittee has prepared.  

That and Boris using the "F" word re business.....just about sums it up....

....but I should really transfer these notes to the "Sleepwalking" thread rather that hi-jacking winky's second go at "E" cars.

BTW I was surprised at Prince Harry's E Type E Car

Evidently there is quite a demand building up for Electric conversions of Classic cars like the E Type.

Pcd posted:

Evidently there is quite a demand building up for Electric conversions of Classic cars like the E Type.

Not a classic car but..... We drove a 2016 e-Golf that is essentially a VW factory conversion a couple of days ago. Same platform as the ICE versions, and looks identical except for badging and the absence of tailpipes. A really fun little car. Super peppy around town, in spite of modest power and torque numbers. Ridiculously hard acceleration to 60kmh. Only 125km of range, though - so only really functional sa s second car around town. The 2018 models are a bit more powerful and with longer range of 220km which would still be quite limiting for most, but none available for test drive as they are being sold as fast as they can be delivered. It was the same story at Nissan where new Leafs aren't available for test drives due to the high demand.

Porsche/Audi/VW are well into the development of their new e-vehicle platforms. When these launch in 2019/2020, they will have caught up with (and perhaps passed) Tesla in term of range and performance. I believe that will be the beginning of the end for ICE vehicles.

My wife was pleading for the salesman to take her downpayment for one of these. Sadly, not yet available for reservations. Delivery in 2022.

But then, a few years back,  they said this (much uglier) one was coming in 2017... Hmmm.

Winkyincanada, I spent 40 years in the motor industry starting my Motor Technicians Apprenticeship in 1971 working in a few local garages then for a large Construction Supply Company initially maintaining their fleet of motor vehicle before moving up through the ranks to become Group Transport Manager running a mixed fleet of motor cars, forks lifts and a large number of HGV Commercial Vehicles.

Even though I managed to retire early I am still a member of The Institute of Road Transport Engineers so I get the up to date info on  monthly basis and still have a strong interest in Motor Vehicle Technology..

As you can well imagine starting in the trade in the 70s I have seen many many changes but it is the speed of change and development in recent years that has been the most rapid it is going to be very interesting to see development in the next few years as more worldwide legislation is brought in.

I see last week Audi announced that they working in collaboration with Hyundai on EV power pack development.

Part my role as Group Transport Manager was the specification and procurement of the company fleet and I was very very lucky to been able to drive a wide range of vehicles from a VW Lupo to a 78 ton Volvo Artic either on the road or test tracks very enjoyable times indeed.

Quite ironically when working I would  drive on average thirty five thousand miles a year but since retiring I've had my driving license revoked due to Diabetic eyesight problems so will be unable to drive these lovely new technological wonders but have been out in a few Hybrid vehicles lately and have been very impressed indeed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/...isease-a8384806.html

These real costs, right now. Not some future cost that only our children will have to worry about.