Electric Cars - Saviours of our environment or just another fad? (restart)

https://sonomotors.com/

winkyincanada posted:

https://www.independent.co.uk/...isease-a8384806.html

These real costs, right now. Not some future cost that only our children will have to worry about.

Wow ! What a headline ! 

Then the concentration on the financial cost to health. £6bn pa.

This is one third of the £18bn pa which according to Boris we pour into Jean Claude Junker’s EU happy fund every year. That’ s a Boris lie btw.

Nevertheless, that £6bn translates into 25p per person per day. I didn’t see that sort of figure anywhere in the article.

25p per day isn’t such a catchy headline, even though it is equally valid.

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

https://www.independent.co.uk/...isease-a8384806.html

These real costs, right now. Not some future cost that only our children will have to worry about.

Wow ! What a headline ! 

Then the concentration on the financial cost to health. 6bn pa.

This is one third of the £18bn pa which according to Boris we pour into Jean Claude Junker’s EU happy fund every year. That’ s a Boris lie btw.

Nevertheless, that £6bn translates into 25p per person per day. I didn’t see that sort of figure anywhere in the article.

25p per day isn’t such a catchy headline, even though it is equally valid.

 

Not really equally valid. Make the £8,000 per vehicle (double for diesels) as a subsidy for zero emission vehicles and that would also get some headlines. It's also disingenuous to ignore the longer-term impacts. 

Another point is that the costs aren't borne by the whole of the UK population (your 25p), but by a much smaller number. The non-financial costs that result in the direct health-care costs are not be dismissed, either.

I know you want to feel better about your profligate car use (or maybe you don't). We all cling to myths that we wish were true, Don.

25p can be dressed up in lots of different ways, but it's still 25p.

What happens to your $1,000 deposit if you decide not to proceed with the Model 3 that was scheduled for late 2018 ?

Is the initial quoted price fixed, or has it changed (up ? or down ?) since the deposit was placed ?

I noted this week that production had touched the 5,000 pw mark so presumably deliveries should be ok for late 2018 or soon thereafter.

Assuming the costs in the article are correct, surely they are more than offset by drivers paying fuel tax, road tax, VAT etc. etc.?

What concerns me is how we are going to pay for the care costs of all these self righteous health freaks who will live for years longer dribbling into extreme dotage riddled with all the diseases of extreme old age.

It reminds me of when smokers were the demon of choice for the new puritans; they were always banging on about the cost to the health service but boy do we miss the taxes they paid!

Having said that I am of course in favour of electric vehicles and would love have one at an affordable price with a usable range.

Pev posted:

Assuming the costs in the article are correct, surely they are more than offset by drivers paying fuel tax, road tax, VAT etc. etc.?

What concerns me is how we are going to pay for the care costs of all these self righteous health freaks who will live for years longer dribbling into extreme dotage riddled with all the diseases of extreme old age.

It reminds me of when smokers were the demon of choice for the new puritans; they were always banging on about the cost to the health service but boy do we miss the taxes they paid!

Having said that I am of course in favour of electric vehicles and would love have one at an affordable price with a usable range.

The headline figure I have seen for a Tesla Model 3 is "From $35,000"

I guess in the UK that will translate into "From £35,000".

The 2 year old Model S that we have has been reliable, but at a frightening price !!!. However, the range is limiting. The Model 3 has a quoted range of "Up to 220 miles" which might be ok as a second car for some people.

Don Atkinson posted:

The headline figure I have seen for a Tesla Model 3 is "From $35,000"

I guess in the UK that will translate into "From £35,000".

The 2 year old Model S that we have has been reliable, but at a frightening price !!!. However, the range is limiting. The Model 3 has a quoted range of "Up to 220 miles" which might be ok as a second car for some people.

The Tesla website acyptually declares 220-310 miles range - but maybe the additional range is additional cost.

Plenty enough range for local use, as for longer distance travelling, so much will depend on the ‘supercharging’ recharge time - if not much longer than a reasonable driving/refreshment breakr  then it would seem not to be a limiting factor, but if a lot longr then it would be.

But whereas it is possible to find £30k ICE cars at a very reasonable secondhand price after 100k+ miles or so, I wonder the position with batteries, especially after a few years, and I assume the battery cost is not small.

But I live in hope!

I tend NOT to buy new cars, but 3 to 5 year old cars. I then keep them till they are worth nothing to others.

The last 230 estate was 28 years old when we sold it to our local garage. We had had it 25 years.

The current C Class is 18 years old and we've had it for 14 years.

The BMW is only 8 years and we've had it for about 3 years (it was our daughters before that)

The CRV is also about 8 years old and ours for the past 5 or 6.

They are all very versatile and economical in terms of depreciation, reliability and fuel cost.

A tank of fuel in the C class lasts me more than a fortnight to/from work which is 70 mile round trip. The same tank will get me to/from/to Newcastle.

The CRV gets me happily from Vernon to Canmore and back with a single refuel at Golden or Revelstoke on the way back.

When e-cars can match this sort of versatility and reliability, I will be interested.

Don Atkinson posted:

What happens to your $1,000 deposit if you decide not to proceed with the Model 3 that was scheduled for late 2018 ?

Is the initial quoted price fixed, or has it changed (up ? or down ?) since the deposit was placed ?

I noted this week that production had touched the 5,000 pw mark so presumably deliveries should be ok for late 2018 or soon thereafter.

Our number came up a few months back. We don't want, nor need a second car so we're not proceeding with it. Pricing is pretty steep, but varied. The $35,000 model (~$48,000 in Canada bucks) isn't yet available, only higher-specced models. You can option the high performance one up to $105,000 if you tick all the boxes, but the most basic (once you can get it) will still be pretty close to the original price, I believe. We're seeing them everywhere around Vancouver now. There was even one over on the Sunshine Coast at Gibson's last weekend.

Don Atkinson posted:

25p can be dressed up in lots of different ways, but it's still 25p.

One can justify socializing pretty much any cost if it is broken down into small enough chunks and spread across the entire population.

A penny an hour...

(amended original error saying tuppence!)

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

What happens to your $1,000 deposit if you decide not to proceed with the Model 3 that was scheduled for late 2018 ?

Is the initial quoted price fixed, or has it changed (up ? or down ?) since the deposit was placed ?

I noted this week that production had touched the 5,000 pw mark so presumably deliveries should be ok for late 2018 or soon thereafter.

Our number came up a few months back. We don't want, nor need a second car so we're not proceeding with it. Pricing is pretty steep, but varied. The $35,000 model (~$48,000 in Canada bucks) isn't yet available, only higher-specced models. You can option the high performance one up to $105,000 if you tick all the boxes, but the most basic (once you can get it) will still be pretty close to the original price, I believe. We're seeing them everywhere around Vancouver now. There was even one over on the Sunshine Coast at Gibson's last weekend.

I can see people taking them up in Vancouver at $50kCD as a second car for local use. However, even as a second car in Vernon, a low-spec, 220miles wouldn't reliably get me to Kelowna then back to Silver Star (where half of the other inlaws live) then Vernon. Our works cars don't get the advertised mileage between charges (bit like manufacturer's mpg in a petrol car) but at least with the BMW you can put 2 gallons of petrol into the tank and run the generator to the next convenient re-charge point, or the next 2 gallon petrol station.

Give it 5 or 10 years and these e-cars might be worth a shot. I can understand you holding fire at present.

Innocent Bystander posted:

A penny an hour...

(amended original error saying tuppence!)

Still 20 times the rate that London is spending on cycling infrastructure, though.

I am now driving my second Tesla Model S.  I leased on in 2015 for three years, and due to economics keeping it post-lease was impossible. I leased another one a few months ago.

For me it's a quite ideal car.  My commute to work 5 days/week is 4.2 miles.  I can charge for free where I park at work.  Driving around the Boston area outside of work hours, the range on the 75D is sufficient.  And we do have a second, traditional gas vehicle.  The typical 2/3 charge if I do it at home is $9.25.  So 150 miles for $9.25  That's high, because like many towns mine does not offer a price break for electric vehicle owners

Bart posted:

I am now driving my second Tesla Model S.  I leased on in 2015 for three years, and due to economics keeping it post-lease was impossible. I leased another one a few months ago.

For me it's a quite ideal car.  My commute to work 5 days/week is 4.2 miles.  I can charge for free where I park at work.  Driving around the Boston area outside of work hours, the range on the 75D is sufficient.  And we do have a second, traditional gas vehicle.  The typical 2/3 charge if I do it at home is $9.25.  So 150 miles for $9.25  That's high, because like many towns mine does not offer a price break for electric vehicle owners

 

 

4.4 miles? cycle, it’ll keep you healthier, and reduce pollution wherever the electricity is made, saving the car for bad weather.

But I agree the Teslas seem to have a perfect balance of specs, with appearance too. The 7-seater sounds an amazingly versatile vehicle. And for those of ipus who think noise should be confined to nice music, they score on that front too!

Innocent Bystander posted:

Bart posted:

I am now driving my second Tesla Model S.  I leased on in 2015 for three years, and due to economics keeping it post-lease was impossible. I leased another one a few months ago.

For me it's a quite ideal car.  My commute to work 5 days/week is 4.2 miles.  I can charge for free where I park at work.  Driving around the Boston area outside of work hours, the range on the 75D is sufficient.  And we do have a second, traditional gas vehicle.  The typical 2/3 charge if I do it at home is $9.25.  So 150 miles for $9.25  That's high, because like many towns mine does not offer a price break for electric vehicle owners

 

 

4.4 miles? cycle, it’ll keep you healthier, and reduce pollution wherever the electricity is made, saving the car for bad weather.

I'd cycle, but the streets are quite crowded with dedicated bike lanes on only a small portion of my route. I've thought about it many times but am just too afraid of getting run over by a car or bus, or getting "doored."

A co-worker got hit by a bus cycling to work a few years ago.  And I share the road with cyclists every day.  It's just too scary for me   Too scary even to ride a Vespa, which I've considered!

Time to ban cars from at least one lane of every road! 

Oops, this risks turning into the Cyclists thread!

Innocent Bystander posted:

Time to ban cars from at least one lane of every road! 

Oops, this risks turning into the Cyclists thread!

New cycle "lanes" have appeared between Thatcham and Newbury (3 miles)

IMHO, it's only a matter of time before somebody is killed.

I will take a photo of one situation, which has now been temporarily fenced off after  I pointed it out to the local Unitary Authority  Engineer, which struck me as a death trap for cyclists (*)

(*) Bonzo Dog could do a re-run of Death Cab for Cutie !

Well done for pointing whatever it is out, Don, thank you. Borough engineer only doing their job. They may not be cyclists. I'm not defending them, they should be more competent. But it seems a kind of ad hoc system has worked in this case, and fatalities avoided.

C.

Don Atkinson posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Time to ban cars from at least one lane of every road! 

Oops, this risks turning into the Cyclists thread!

New cycle "lanes" have appeared between Thatcham and Newbury (3 miles)

IMHO, it's only a matter of time before somebody is killed.

I will take a photo of one situation, which has now been temporarily fenced off after  I pointed it out to the local Unitary Authority  Engineer, which struck me as a death trap for cyclists (*)

(*) Bonzo Dog could do a re-run of Death Cab for Cutie !

Does the temporary fencing exclude the cars or the bikes from that stretch?

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Time to ban cars from at least one lane of every road! 

Oops, this risks turning into the Cyclists thread!

New cycle "lanes" have appeared between Thatcham and Newbury (3 miles)

IMHO, it's only a matter of time before somebody is killed.

I will take a photo of one situation, which has now been temporarily fenced off after  I pointed it out to the local Unitary Authority  Engineer, which struck me as a death trap for cyclists (*)

(*) Bonzo Dog could do a re-run of Death Cab for Cutie !

Does the temporary fencing exclude the cars or the bikes from that stretch?

They introduced a 500 metre length of dual cycle/footpath as part of the scheme. Good so far !

About halfway along this section a pre-existing cable that anchors an electricity pole runs diagonally to it’s ground-anchor which is located in the middle of the cycle/path. 

The first cyclist could have been decapitated ! Or swerved into a pedestrian. 

The engineer said they knew about it, but just hadn’t got around to installing the temporary fence, until the electricity company move the anchor cable !

Talk about planning !

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

New cycle "lanes" have appeared between Thatcham and Newbury (3 miles)

IMHO, it's only a matter of time before somebody is killed.

I will take a photo of one situation, which has now been temporarily fenced off after  I pointed it out to the local Unitary Authority  Engineer, which struck me as a death trap for cyclists (*)

(*) Bonzo Dog could do a re-run of Death Cab for Cutie !

Does the temporary fencing exclude the cars or the bikes from that stretch?

They introduced a 500 metre length of dual cycle/footpath as part of the scheme. Good so far !

About halfway along this section a pre-existing cable that anchors an electricity pole runs diagonally to it’s ground-anchor which is located in the middle of the cycle/path. 

The first cyclist could have been decapitated ! Or swerved into a pedestrian. 

The engineer said they knew about it, but just hadn’t got around to installing the temporary fence, until the electricity company move the anchor cable !

Talk about planning !

Thanks for reporting it. But is it really a certainty that a cyclist will be killed by a motorist? Maybe cars need to be banned from that stretch road if they present such an extreme hazard.

I’ll try to find time to take a photo.

The road is the A4. It is the main highway into Newbury. A bit like closing Highway 97C through Kelowna ! Or the Lion GAte bridge into Vancouver (ok, ok..........it ain’t going happen !)

The new cycleway/footpath is alongside the road. Cyclists can use it. But they have to curve into the pedestrian part to avoid the cable. cyclists are not at risk from cars. 

General picture.

You can see the anchor cable. The pavement has been widened to accommodate cyclists and pedestrians. I understand that white line markings are yet to be added, but the new pavement is in use.

Cyclists also have a cycle lane on the highway