Apple wireless for music network

Posted by: Stover on 01 July 2018

I have read that Apple wireless networks are not that good for use with music systems? In our home we have fibre net distributed by a Inteno modem, but with its inbuilt wireless functions set to off. I have an Apple Airport Extreme taking care of the wireless functions.

The main system is placed in the basement and the Extreme is placed at the ground floor. Cabled ethernet to the system though. There's a concrete floor between the two levels giving the wireless net a little "hang" or lag. I have tried to expand the wireless net in the basement by using an Airport Express, using cable from the switch, but with no success.

At some point I will enable the Inteno to deliver wireless, just to see if that improve things.

Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

S

Posted on: 01 July 2018 by Alley Cat
Stover posted:

I have read that Apple wireless networks are not that good for use with music systems? In our home we have fibre net distributed by a Inteno modem, but with its inbuilt wireless functions set to off. I have an Apple Airport Extreme taking care of the wireless functions.

The main system is placed in the basement and the Extreme is placed at the ground floor. Cabled ethernet to the system though. There's a concrete floor between the two levels giving the wireless net a little "hang" or lag. I have tried to expand the wireless net in the basement by using an Airport Express, using cable from the switch, but with no success.

At some point I will enable the Inteno to deliver wireless, just to see if that improve things.

Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

S

which versions of Express/Extreme do you have?

I have a naff ISP supplied modem/router working as a modem only connected to a fantastic cheap Ubiquiti router which feeds Ethernet via 2 outputs to my home office and the domestic household LAN, the latter via an 8 port Netgear switch.

I was using the most recent Airport Express (Named Network1) for wi-fi until Apple announced they'd discontinued Airport devices - soon after I ordered a 3TB Time Capsule from John Lewis and wish I'd got one years ago, and have it providing a separate wi-fi network (Named Network2) just by plugging into an ethernet socket on the home LAN and configuring with Airport Utility.  I can connect to either wi-fi network and control my home LAN devices.

A much  older Airport Express was rubbish but the last Express/Extreme/TCs seem very good - it may be a configuration issue - you do not want the Express doing DHCP itself or realistically extending the Extreme's network, just give it a different SSD and the controlling device will hopefully pick up the better wi-fi signal from Express or Extreme.

Posted on: 01 July 2018 by ChrisSU

What settings did you use on the Airport Express? If you are giving it a wired Ethernet connection, have you set it to 'create a wireless network' and given it the same network name and password as your existing network? This is different to setting it to 'extend a wireless network' which works if the AE has no wired connection.

It sounds like you have a wired connection to your streamer, so presumably, this is only for wireless connection for iOS devices etc?

Posted on: 01 July 2018 by Stover

Hi AC- Thanks, I have the latest version Extreme (tower model), Express is an older model. I struggle to follow the description of your networks, but if I understand correctly you have skipped Apple in network 1 for Ubiquti, due to an older express, and serves network 2 with a Time Capsule?

I have used extended network with my Express, worried that two separate networks will "collide"?

S

Posted on: 01 July 2018 by Stover
ChrisSU posted:

What settings did you use on the Airport Express? If you are giving it a wired Ethernet connection, have you set it to 'create a wireless network' and given it the same network name and password as your existing network? This is different to setting it to 'extend a wireless network' which works if the AE has no wired connection.

It sounds like you have a wired connection to your streamer, so presumably, this is only for wireless connection for iOS devices etc?

Chris- As far as I understand I have done it wrong. I use wire/ cable from switch to Express and configure as extended network. I should try it the other way then?

S

Posted on: 01 July 2018 by ChrisSU
Stover posted:

I have used extended network with my Express, worried that two separate networks will "collide"?

Try 'create' instead of 'extend', the beauty of this Apple stuff is that it only takes a few seconds to change the settings, and if you don't like the results, you can just change it back. Works for me, anyway.

Posted on: 01 July 2018 by ChrisSU
Stover posted:
ChrisSU posted:

What settings did you use on the Airport Express? If you are giving it a wired Ethernet connection, have you set it to 'create a wireless network' and given it the same network name and password as your existing network? This is different to setting it to 'extend a wireless network' which works if the AE has no wired connection.

It sounds like you have a wired connection to your streamer, so presumably, this is only for wireless connection for iOS devices etc?

Chris- As far as I understand I have done it wrong. I use wire/ cable from switch to Express and configure as extended network. I should try it the other way then?

S

See my other post above, but to be clear, what I do is:

Turn off WiFi on ISP router, but don't change any other settings, so that it is still your DHCP server.

Ethernet cable from router to Airport Extreme, which is set to 'Create' and Router Mode: Off (bridge mode).

Ethernet cable from Airport Extreme via switch to Airport Express.

Airport Express set to 'Create' as mentioned above.

When I had the Express without a wired connection back to the Extreme, I had it set to 'Extend', but with a wired connection, it needs to be 'Create'.

 

Posted on: 01 July 2018 by banzai
ChrisSU posted:
Stover posted:
ChrisSU posted:

What settings did you use on the Airport Express? If you are giving it a wired Ethernet connection, have you set it to 'create a wireless network' and given it the same network name and password as your existing network? This is different to setting it to 'extend a wireless network' which works if the AE has no wired connection.

It sounds like you have a wired connection to your streamer, so presumably, this is only for wireless connection for iOS devices etc?

Chris- As far as I understand I have done it wrong. I use wire/ cable from switch to Express and configure as extended network. I should try it the other way then?

S

See my other post above, but to be clear, what I do is:

Turn off WiFi on ISP router, but don't change any other settings, so that it is still your DHCP server.

Ethernet cable from router to Airport Extreme, which is set to 'Create' and Router Mode: Off (bridge mode).

Ethernet cable from Airport Extreme via switch to Airport Express.

Airport Express set to 'Create' as mentioned above.

When I had the Express without a wired connection back to the Extreme, I had it set to 'Extend', but with a wired connection, it needs to be 'Create'.

 

On my system:

1) Airport extreme - (a) Create a wireless network (2) Bridge mode
2) Airport express -  (a) Join a wireless network (2) Ethernet cable out to the streamer

Works great for me.

Posted on: 01 July 2018 by EoinKav

You can let the express and extreme create the same SSID name and password also, then your wireless clients can automatically move between the airport zones depending on location and signal strength. Ethernet cable from router to Airport Extreme and Airport Express, both are set to 'Create'(same SSID/Password) and Router Mode: Off (bridge mode).

If you have the ability to connect both the airports to an ethernet network and just function as wireless access points they are extremely reliable and provide robust network.

The idea of using 1 to extend a network should only be used to extend the range of the SSID when you can not run an ethernet cable to that further point. However the extend network will result in latency on that extended segment.

Posted on: 02 July 2018 by Stover

Thanks to all of you, very useful and clarifying. I will try out when back from work offshore.

S

Posted on: 02 July 2018 by ChrisSU
Stover posted:

Thanks to all of you, very useful and clarifying. I will try out when back from work offshore.

S

Good luck, should take you about 2 minutes!

Posted on: 02 July 2018 by cdboy

Fully Apple wifi here with no issues. (Two Airport Extremes, and two AExpress acting as Roon endpoints).   

Posted on: 03 July 2018 by Simon-in-Suffolk
EoinKav posted:

The idea of using 1 to extend a network should only be used to extend the range of the SSID when you can not run an ethernet cable to that further point. However the extend network will result in latency on that extended segment.

yes the idea of extending a Wifi network is not recommended, it tends to severely compromise performance and efficiency underneath the covers.

The recommended way is to use multiple overlapping Ethernet connected access points... (or if you use mesh technology multiple edge mesh Ethernet connected access points, with a relatively high density of meshed access points between them)

You can create an ESSID.. this is an extended SSID where the authentication and SSID parameters are the same for the WLAN... 

Although Apple iOS clients support 802.11r, 11k and 11v protocols to effectively navigate ESSIDs, as far as I can see they are strangely quiet on the support of these management protocols on their access points... so I kind of suspect the worse.. as their access points are aging a bit  now. If setting up an ESSID one might want instead to look at Ubiquiti devices or equivalent which are more transparent on the protocols supported and have better and easier to use software to configure and manage ESSIDs.

 

Posted on: 04 July 2018 by Bart
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
EoinKav posted:

The idea of using 1 to extend a network should only be used to extend the range of the SSID when you can not run an ethernet cable to that further point. However the extend network will result in latency on that extended segment.

yes the idea of extending a Wifi network is not recommended, it tends to severely compromise performance and efficiency underneath the covers. 

My personal experience using one Airport Extreme to 'create' my home wifi network and a second 2 floors below to 'extend' it, is that it's been 100% satisfactory in my home.

1. My music players (NDS; Qute2) and server (nas) are all hard-wired to my switch, so for music the wifi is only used to connect the Naim App on iPhones/iPads to the server etc.  100% fine.

2.  I have one television one floor further below the 'extend' airport, and use wifi to connect its Amazon Fire Stick to my network for watching Netflix on that tv.  Again, 100% fine.  If there are issues, they do not show up when using the network to stream video or basic internet browsing on laptops and handhelds in that room.

(75 MBPS up and down fibre service into my home.  SpeedTest run on a phone or laptop in that bottom floor gets the full 75M speed reliably.  Obviously other experiences may vary but I've been totally happy with this setup!)

Posted on: 04 July 2018 by EoinKav

You can use either method, 2 separate wireless networks with a common SSID & Password (ESSID) or use the Express to extend an existing Wireless network.

Just bare in mind that extending a wireless network is not as efficient as ESSID. Perhaps you'll never saturate your wireless bandwidth, but you'll do it quicker with the extended wireless network because essentially the wired extreme basestation has to handle both it's own wireless network and the communications with the express wirelessly

 

Posted on: 04 July 2018 by Bart
EoinKav posted:

You can use either method, 2 separate wireless networks with a common SSID & Password (ESSID) or use the Express to extend an existing Wireless network.

Just bare in mind that extending a wireless network is not as efficient as ESSID. Perhaps you'll never saturate your wireless bandwidth, but you'll do it quicker with the extended wireless network because essentially the wired extreme basestation has to handle both it's own wireless network and the communications with the express wirelessly

 

I'll try the other method (ESSID) just to see what happens

Edit: Im not sure my device supports the ESSID mode. It only offers 2 options in the Airport Utility App -- "create a wireless network" or "extend a wireless network."  As this is the extender, and thus not hard-wired to anything, I have it in "extend" mode.

Posted on: 04 July 2018 by Iver van de Zand

Hi Banzai,

I use almost similar with excellent results.

To get rid of my Powerlines, I created a new Wifi network using a Airport Extreme that is wired connected to the incoming router of my Internet in a separate room of my house. A second Airport Express (AE)  is wireless connected to the Airport Extreme using bridge mode. That AE is located next to my Hifi system and has a wired connection to a switch. That switch connects NAS, NDX and tv together. I use Tidal extensively and bnever experience gaps or hick ups. 

When I changed to this set up from the previous Powerlines, I did notice an improvement in SQ

cheers

iver

Posted on: 04 July 2018 by EoinKav
Bart posted: 

I'll try the other method (ESSID) just to see what happens

Edit: Im not sure my device supports the ESSID mode. It only offers 2 options in the Airport Utility App -- "create a wireless network" or "extend a wireless network."  As this is the extender, and thus not hard-wired to anything, I have it in "extend" mode.

If you do not have a Lan cable attached to the 2nd Airport then you have no option but to use it as an "extend wireless network". Think of it as a radio repeater it extends the main wireless network by acting as a middleman and passing any wireless traffic back to the main wireless device over the air.

Compare that to 2 Airports each with their own Lan cable attached, each can provide a common SSID network (or unique if you so wish) but each unit only handles it's own traffic back down the lan cable attached.

The thing to remember with wireless .... there can only ever be one "conversation" at any one time over the air, so by having 2 wireless access points directly connected to the lan you can effectively double that conversation throughput.

I sometimes, but rarely, notice latency when the 2 kids are each streaming netflix, I could be browsing the web whilst also downloading something big and let's not forget the Atom could be playing something on Tidal and using multiroom to the Mu-so ... All that bandwidth on a single Airport extreme can cause problems.

Yet in work I have several Airports in various parts of the buildings directly connected to the Network by lan cable, each airport created the same network SSID & Password (bridge mode). Many users can freely move around the building without loosing connection and there is no latency issues .

If extending a network is working for you ... great, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

If you're having problems when Mary is watching Netflix and boy wonder is playing call of duty with his mates on line (all wirelessly) and you're struggling streaming hi-def audio wirelessly to your Uniti ... then perhaps you'll need to look at improving your wireless 

Posted on: 04 July 2018 by Bart

Thanks EoinKav.  I'll stick with "extend" mode for now as it eliminates an unsightly ethernet cable run and the need to run another cable in the walls.  It definitely ain't broke.

Posted on: 31 July 2018 by Stover

I have now done factory reset on the Express and set it up again using "create a new network". Then used the same network name and-password as the AExtreme. So far it seems much more responsive and my former problem is solved.

I`m not very fast working and it took a bit more than two minutes to set it up, perhaps four , even if I'm confident with the method.

Thanks again!

Stover

Posted on: 31 July 2018 by Bart

Stover, when I was having terrible issues with my network a few years ago, it was recommended to me to do a factory reset on my Airport Extreme.  It cured all of my issues!

Posted on: 01 August 2018 by blythe

Apple wifi is, in my experience one of the most robust, reliable, consumer wifi's available.
I use Apple wifi with my Naim kit in a 2nd home and it just works. That's using a combination of ISP router, a couple of Airport Express and an Airport Extreme.

Posted on: 01 August 2018 by Bart
blythe posted:

Apple wifi is, in my experience one of the most robust, reliable, consumer wifi's available.
I use Apple wifi with my Naim kit in a 2nd home and it just works. That's using a combination of ISP router, a couple of Airport Express and an Airport Extreme.

Me too.  My Airport Extreme and Time Capsule (just an Airport Extreme with a hard drive inside) are now about 4+ years old, but wifi at home is flawless, I can stream over it to an Amazon Fire stick, and it gives me the full 80M up and down that I pay for.  Zero reason to swap it out for newer hardware in my home.

Posted on: 01 August 2018 by dave marshall

+1 for both Apple Airport and Airport Extreme base station, which now provide robust wi-fi throughout the house, whereas previously, using top of the range wi-fi extenders, the signal was always very much hit and miss.

Old technology, no longer being developed by Apple, they nevertheless simply work.