Astell & Kern Kann: headphone audition shortlist?

MR speakers eaon flow closed is your medicine....

but for a better potabilty you can get an CIEM for better confort than over ears or the best value iem for classical etymotic  er4sr

I would suggest giving the Fostex th-900 a listen, my favourite closed back, or if you want a cheaper alternative give the oppo pm3 a go, marketed as a portable.

Fostex th900 is very good, still my favoriye closed headphone but not for classical Music and not very portable 

Audeze LCD-2, MrSpeakers AEON, Sennheiser HD800, Beyerdynamic T5p, Final Sonorous VI would all be worth a listen. Depending if you want open or closed back, comfort for extended listening is important to consider as well.

I very much appreciate everyone's suggestions: thank you for your time and help. I dislike in ear headphones and find them fiddly and uncomfortable (even if they are the ultimate in portability) - which is why I specified over ear headphones. The Fostex TH900 gets quite good reviews but looks rather too big for my purposes. Sticking to my requirement for closed back headphones rules out one or two other suggestions and it seems that the MrSpeakers ÆON™ Flow works best with a separate amp. (at least from the reviews I've read).

I've taken on board other suggestions and welcome any further ideas or comments.

Stephen

Unfortunately, if you're looking to use the headphones on the move, while travelling, then open or semi-open headphones are off the menu.  My choice would be for a good pair of closed back headphones over and above noise-cancelling phones, mainly because I tend to find the effects of the noise-cancelling noticeable and a bit annoying, and they have an overall lower performance ceiling accordingly.

You already have the P7s, and I have these too for travelling.  They actually work pretty well blocking out quite a lot of noise even on an aeroplane.  Logically, you have chosen the P9 and also the Beyer T5P to audition as potential upgrades. I think Mr Speakers do a sealed headphone that gets some good feedback, however if you're travelling then size and "foldability" also come into play.  I'm not sure what else to recommend here as you're getting close to the current top of the closed-back tree...

I've never listened to them, but from you requirements, perhaps you can find Ultrasone headphones to demo.  All their headphones are closed, and some are articulated for easier travel.  The Signature Pro comes in at the $1k USD mark.  

-pat

Thanks for the further ideas. Richard, your reasoning mirrors my own. In particular, travel requires some compromises. I suspect I'm not too far off with my shortlist - even if it is rather limited!

Pat, I can add a pair of Ultrasone headphones to the list and will give them a try.

Stephen

I thought it might be helpful to someone, some time, if I were to complete this thread by mentioning the result of my headphone audition. In the end I audtioned the Beyerdynamic T5p and B&W P9 against my existing B&W P7. Much to my surprise (although not, it seemed, to the surprise of the helpful assistant in the hi fi shop) the P7 was a clear winner. Both the T5p and P9 were disappointing against the P7. The P9 I can decribe only as "soupy" and bass heavy (although very comfortable) and the T5p simply didn't have the presence of the P7.

In summary, if you have B&W P7s and like them it's probably best sticking with them—at least at this time—unless you want to explore the world of open back headphones (which, of course, is another kettle of fish entirely).

Stephen

Stephen_C posted:

I thought it might be helpful to someone, some time, if I were to complete this thread by mentioning the result of my headphone audition. In the end I audtioned the Beyerdynamic T5p and B&W P9 against my existing B&W P7. Much to my surprise (although not, it seemed, to the surprise of the helpful assistant in the hi fi shop) the P7 was a clear winner. Both the T5p and P9 were disappointing against the P7. The P9 I can decribe only as "soupy" and bass heavy (although very comfortable) and the T5p simply didn't have the presence of the P7.

In summary, if you have B&W P7s and like them it's probably best sticking with them—at least at this time—unless you want to explore the world of open back headphones (which, of course, is another kettle of fish entirely).

Stephen

Thanks for this. As a very happy owner of P7s for the last couple of years I have been seriously considering an ’unseen’ upgrade to the P9 on basis of the rave reviews from HiFi press. I don’t have a local dealer, therefore a demo is not easily arranged. I don’t believe I’ll bother now, at least not until I can do my own direct comparison.

Timmo1341 posted:

Thanks for this. As a very happy owner of P7s for the last couple of years I have been seriously considering an ’unseen’ upgrade to the P9 on basis of the rave reviews from HiFi press. I don’t have a local dealer, therefore a demo is not easily arranged. I don’t believe I’ll bother now, at least not until I can do my own direct comparison.

Yes, I'd most definitely strongly not recommend an upgrade without first listening to both, side by side—certainly on the basis of what I heard this morning (using, I emphasise, classical music of various genres played from my A&K Kann).

People with different musical tastes, or a different source, might disagree—but for me it showed the critical importance of "try before you buy".

Stephen

???? STEPHEN_C,..... I had intended to write a reply earlier,but forgot about it...so it comes here instead.

1. ◾ Question: When you listened to the P9, P7 and T5P,..What peripheral equipment did you have?
Headphone amplifier, USB-DAC, phone or other.?
2. ◾ Burn-in: Did you find out how long these three headphones were "burn-in".

Back to question 1, the seller had no information on which peripherals are best suited to the respective earphones.?

As you should have them even when you travel, transportable, it's important that you test with such peripherals as well.

I have both B&W P9 and P7, so I have compared these pretty much as you understand.

Then I first bought the B&W P7, so I thought they were pretty bass-resonant.
But after constant "burn-in" in 200 hours, with different music and different volume, they are incredibly transparent.... and no tendency to be bass-dominant.
You have yourself this P7, so you know enough what I'm talking about.
Note, important that you "burn-in" them, using the cable you intend to use.

B&W P9,..these were even more bass-dominant than B&W P7 in the beginning, just as you describe your listening impression of B&W P9.
 Therefore, I wonder if the store's B&W P9 was really "burn-in".
I "burn-in" my B&W P9 in the same way as I described above, that I made with my B&W P7..... 200 hours constant.

After this "burn-in", my B&W P9 is not at all bass-dominant,..They have,on the other hand, a more powerful, clearer, more dynamic, more articulated, energy-rich and holographic bass rendition than the B&W P7.
They also play lower in the frequency range than the B&W P7.

In the upper register (treble area), B&W P7 can be experienced more "in your face" than B&W P9.
This can be perceived more positive on some music, but they do not play as clean as B&W P9.
In addition, B&W P9 plays the tones in a completely different way to the B&W P7.
B&W P9 will also be much better depending on which source you use, it also applies to B&W P7..... but B&W P9 extends here considerably longer.

Two weeks ago I picked up my B&W P7 again to compare against P9, I had not used my P7 for 4 months.
Therefore, I let them play 30 minutes before I started listening.... to "soften the speaker membrane ????".
I know,... I am probably a little "damaged ", but should you be careful so..... well you know ????.

I have 10 songs I usually use,and to easily describe,...and exaggerate a bit to be clear.
B&W P7 sounded broken in comparison to B&W P9.
On some songs you got the feeling that the B&W P7 had distortion in the treble area.....of course than it was not so. They felt restrained in their music rendition where B&W P9 played out.

Overall, the B&W P9 has a much more dynamic, energy-rich, detailed music reproduction. Where it plays more naturally with timing and articulation.
The nerve and the musical message also appear clearer.
And B&W P9 has a very high "toe tapping" factor, higher than the B&W P7..... which is good in this area.

I have used the following peripherals for these listening-impressions:

◾ Asus Essence One Muse,.. A headphone amplifier with  Muse OP-Amp's... special Rebuilt.
◾ NorthOst Blue Heaven USB cable.
◾ Vertere DF-I USB cable.
◾ Audioquest Vodka ehternet cable.
◾ Cisco WS2960 switch.
◾ AC cord Chord C-Power.

On the Go.....
◾ Audioquest Dragonfly Black USB DAC.
◾ Audioquest Dragonfly Red USB-DAC.

Hope you got something out of this, it's hard to describe with nuances in a foreign language.
If you didn't understand anything, just ask.

/Peder ????

Ps: Saw that you use Astell Kern Kann, a friend of mine has this to his B&W P9, he shares my opinion as I described above.

???? TIMMO1341 wrote,...◾Thanks for this. As a very happy owner of P7s for the last couple of years I have been seriously considering an ’unseen’ upgrade to the P9 on basis of the rave reviews from HiFi press. I don’t have a local dealer, therefore a demo is not easily arranged. I don’t believe I’ll bother now, at least not until I can do my own direct comparison.◾

You should always listen yourself,..Then something else strange.
Here in Sweden,it pretty often pops up sales ads,where people sell expensive headphones as they say...."has only been used 10-30 hours".

Among other things,some B&W P9, it shows what little knowledge there is about, among other things, "burn-in's" importance.
These sellers have never heard what their expensive purchased headphones can perform.

Bowers & Wilkins says themselves,that their P9 should "burn-in" for at least 60 hours.
Then you should not play two hours from time to time, but a real "burn-in" where they played constantly with different volume and varying music.

But this is good for those who want to make good second hand business ????.

Peder???? 

Peder posted:

???? TIMMO1341 wrote,...◾Thanks for this. As a very happy owner of P7s for the last couple of years I have been seriously considering an ’unseen’ upgrade to the P9 on basis of the rave reviews from HiFi press. I don’t have a local dealer, therefore a demo is not easily arranged. I don’t believe I’ll bother now, at least not until I can do my own direct comparison.◾

You should always listen yourself,..Then something else strange.
Here in Sweden,it pretty often pops up sales ads,where people sell expensive headphones as they say...."has only been used 10-30 hours".

Among other things,some B&W P9, it shows what little knowledge there is about, among other things, "burn-in's" importance.
These sellers have never heard what their expensive purchased headphones can perform.

Bowers & Wilkins says themselves,that their P9 should "burn-in" for at least 60 hours.
Then you should not play two hours from time to time, but a real "burn-in" where they played constantly with different volume and varying music.

But this is good for those who want to make good second hand business ????.

Peder???? 

Peder

just out of interest, can you point me toward where B & W state the P9 (or indeed any of their headphones) should be ‘burned-in’ for 60 hours? Try as I might I can find no such reference anywhere on their website.

Thanks

Peder, thanks for your detailed comments which were very interesting. Yes, I'm using an Astell & Kern Kann so was not interested in any other source. All I was doing was exploring whether there was, for me, a worthwhile headphone upgrade given the constraints mentioned in my first post.

I have no doubt that some (all?) headphones have a "burn in" period (my P7s certainly did) but it's clearly not particularly practical to sit for 200 hours in an audio showroom so I had to make the most of what I could do, with due allowance for the fact the headphones I listened to were not "burned in". That said, I was sufficiently confident that the sound profile of the P9s, as I heard them, was by no means as satisfactory to me as my P7s. What I mean by that is that there was not sufficient attraction, for me, to take the leap of faith (and financial leap) that all would be sufficiently well after a "burn in" of the P9s. (I shouid say that I listened to choral music, solo piano and orchestral—with most of it high resolution downloads.)

I don't for a moment doubt your own assessment, Peder. However, I did feel slightly vindicated in my decision when my dealer commented that the P9s had proved something of a disappointment to B&W.

I have by no means written off a future upgrade to some other B&W headphones and shall be watching closely to see if there is anything interesting forthcoming later in the year. Finally, I'd not wish anyone to be put off at least trying P9s by my amateurish assessment. We all have different tastes and tolerances.

Stephen

Timmo1341 posted:

Peder posted:

???? TIMMO1341 wrote,...◾Thanks for this. As a very happy owner of P7s for the last couple of years I have been seriously considering an ’unseen’ upgrade to the P9 on basis of the rave reviews from HiFi press. I don’t have a local dealer, therefore a demo is not easily arranged. I don’t believe I’ll bother now, at least not until I can do my own direct comparison.◾

You should always listen yourself,..Then something else strange.
Here in Sweden,it pretty often pops up sales ads,where people sell expensive headphones as they say...."has only been used 10-30 hours".

Among other things,some B&W P9, it shows what little knowledge there is about, among other things, "burn-in's" importance.
These sellers have never heard what their expensive purchased headphones can perform.

Bowers & Wilkins says themselves,that their P9 should "burn-in" for at least 60 hours.
Then you should not play two hours from time to time, but a real "burn-in" where they played constantly with different volume and varying music.

But this is good for those who want to make good second hand business ????.

Peder???? 

Peder

just out of interest, can you point me toward where B & W state the P9 (or indeed any of their headphones) should be ‘burned-in’ for 60 hours? Try as I might I can find no such reference anywhere on their website.

Thanks

???? TIMMO1341,....No,any such "burn-in" information,I don't think you'll find on any manufacturer's website.

Reason: It's not just  "Attention To Detail" fools like us who read their websites,..even "regular" customers do it. Would a "regular" customer read that a Naim-streamer must "burn-in",for at least 6 weeks 24/7, to perform optimally....Well, then Naim probably lost that customer.The costumer would think there is something wrong with the product.

That's why most traders don't talk about all the things we're talking about on this forum, they'd lose customers.
The customer would think it was too cumbersome, believe that the product is poor and choose another brand.

When unfortunately not all traders are 100% up to "Attention to Detail" either,far from it, I would like to say.
Wrote a few days ago in another thread, about a friend in Stockholm who got to help one of Stockholm's larger Naim dealers to optimize their demonstration system.
The trader was very surprised, that it started playing so well after my friend's optimization of that system...... scary ignorance from the merchant's side, and this is more common than you think.

◾ The answer to your question about "burn-in" information is,.....I do not remember.

It may be from Bowers & Wilkins in England, has talked a lot with them on the phone.
Can also be from any special-forum for headphones,...I also knows the distribution-manager for B&W in Sweden.
So the information can also come from there.

As you have probably understood,I am a real "Attention To Detail" guy,knowing its importance.
So in this case with B&W P9,..there was a difference in Soundquality after 60 hours of "burn-in", also after 100 and 150 hours.
But I let them "burn-in" 200 hours to be sure, are more unsure if I heard a difference between 150 and 200 hours.

On the B&W P7, however,I heard a slight difference between 150 and 200 hours of "burn-in".

Hope you became a little wiser of this,..now starting football,Uruguay-France ????????.

/Peder ????

Stephen_C posted:

Peder, thanks for your detailed comments which were very interesting. Yes, I'm using an Astell & Kern Kann so was not interested in any other source. All I was doing was exploring whether there was, for me, a worthwhile headphone upgrade given the constraints mentioned in my first post.

I have no doubt that some (all?) headphones have a "burn in" period (my P7s certainly did) but it's clearly not particularly practical to sit for 200 hours in an audio showroom so I had to make the most of what I could do, with due allowance for the fact the headphones I listened to were not "burned in". That said, I was sufficiently confident that the sound profile of the P9s, as I heard them, was by no means as satisfactory to me as my P7s. What I mean by that is that there was not sufficient attraction, for me, to take the leap of faith (and financial leap) that all would be sufficiently well after a "burn in" of the P9s. (I shouid say that I listened to choral music, solo piano and orchestral—with most of it high resolution downloads.)

I don't for a moment doubt your own assessment, Peder. However, I did feel slightly vindicated in my decision when my dealer commented that the P9s had proved something of a disappointment to B&W.

I have by no means written off a future upgrade to some other B&W headphones and shall be watching closely to see if there is anything interesting forthcoming later in the year. Finally, I'd not wish anyone to be put off at least trying P9s by my amateurish assessment. We all have different tastes and tolerances.

Stephen

???? No Stephen_C,....I really meant not,that you would sit 200 hours in the shop's listening room ????.

But know from experience,that very few shops think of this with "burn-in" on their demonstration products.
And with the listening experience you reported, I suspected that the headphones were not "burn-in".

And in Bowers & Wilkins case,both with P9 and P7, there is a very big difference after "burn-in".
Something that you write,that you yourself have experience with regarding your P7.

Both P7 and P9 are real,...as we say in Sweden "Stomp The Pace" headphones.
You in England say instead "Foot tapping" or "Toe tapping", but we mean the same thing.
They really engage the listener, I can sit 4-6 hours with my P9....and will absolutely not be listening tired.

The music you listen to,is well the only me and my friends do not listen so mutch on.
Otherwise,I listen to most things,therefore got a feeling,thought,..that with your music taste so you might go on electrostatic headphones instead.

If you look at my profile,you'll see that I've also been running a lot of Tube-amps.
With the music flavor you have, so a high quality tube-amplifier, or tube mono-block, with a pair of electrostatic loudspeakers would be very good.
Have myself had such systems,and on,for example, piano music and voices etc, you get pinched in the arm,.....so you do not think you are sitting in a concert hall,instead you are still at home in your listening room ????.
Therefore, I got the idea that electrostatic headphones might be better suited.
But then it was there,that they would be portable.

Back to P9 vs P7, I have over the weekend compared these very mutch, the reason was that I was pensive over your listening impressions.
Is convinced now,that something was not quite right when you listening at your Hifi dealer.
One of the sources of error is I think, that they were not "burn-in", possibly other sources of error, I have no idea.
Well one thing,what cable did the dealer have on the P9,If they had it with volume control for the Iphone so it won't be right.
Then you have a wrong source there, the usual simple 1.2 -1, 5m is the best.

My Impressions P9 vs P7, from my first long answer to you persists after the weekend's listening,has only supplemented a little....????????

???? After this "burn-in", my B&W P9 is not at all bass-dominant,..They have,on the other hand, a more powerful, clearer, more dynamic, more articulated, energy-rich and holographic bass rendition than the B&W P7.

They also play lower in the frequency range than the B&W P7.
In the upper register (treble area),B&W P7 can be experienced,..More "in your face" than B&W P9.
This can be perceived more positive on some music,but they do not play as clean as B&W P9.
In addition,B&W P9 plays the tones in a more natural and completely different way to the B&W P7.
B&W P9 holds together the musical presentation in a completely different,better way.

I have 10 songs I usually use when I  compare, and to easily describe,...and exaggerate a bit to be clear.
B&W P7 sounded broken,or a better word... restrained,in comparison to B&W P9.
On Some songs you got the feeling that the B&W P7 had distortion in the treble area.....of course than,it was not so. They felt restrained in their music rendition where B&W P9 played out.
Overall,..The B&W P9 has a much more dynamic,energy-rich,detailed music reproduction.
Where it plays more naturally,with timing and articulation.
The nerve and the musical message also appear clearer.????

◾But after my listening this weekend so I have to add that....

B&W P7 experienced Dynamics-limited and also frequency-limited against B&W P9.

There is a very big difference in dynamic and timing,and that the musical presentation feels much more natural with P9.
Soundstage becomes also considerably larger, everything feels more musically "right".

But as I wrote earlier,B&W P7 's more prominent treble-reproduction can be experienced positively on some songs.But then it takes place at the expense of the middle and the base registers,that end up a little more in the background.
But, B&W P9 plays cleaner and more cohesive in the treble range.

My friend who has Astell Kern Kann with B&W P9,he plays most rock, blues.
From Ray Charles to AC DC, so it's 100% the other way than your musical tastes.

Hi so far....

/Peder ????

I don’t wanna be rude but they might be better options than bw 7 or 9...

it is a very British headphone conversation 

a Meze ..or nice audeze sine or even a momentum

Oh dear, what I have started? I do appreciate the further comments—especially the amount of detail you have provided Peder.

I think the only reason this seems to have ended as a "very British headphone conversation" is that I currently use the B&W P7s and the P9s appeared to be a possible logical upgrade. Of course there are probably dozens of other headphones I could try but I'm limited, to some extent, to what any one dealer has available to audition (as well as by the contstraints I outlined in my first post).

Personally, it's no disaster for me to continue using the P7s while waiting to see what the year brings in terms of new headphones. After all, I normally use them only for travel and I don't do a huge amount of that. I don't want to do an injustice to the P9s and clearly, in view of Peder's comments, anyone reading this thread and treading a similar path should  audition them bearing in mind those comments. My personal view is that, given I have no immediate pressing need to upgrade and the fact that the P9s are 20 months or so old now, I'm going to wait to see what the remainder of the year brings.

Thanks again to everyone for their contributions. I'm going to try to hide now!

Stephen

???? Stephen you wrote,...."Oh dear, what I have started?" and  "I'm going to try to hide now!????"

◾Stephen ????????????????, just take it easy.I just find it interesting that the listening-impressions can be so different,and try to understand the reason.

It's a bit so we work in our "group" here in Sweden,we leave nothing to "chance" but is "Attention To detail" to the smallest detail.
And regarding B&W P9,we fully agree on the results I posted here.

Regarding other headphones,B&W P7 is good,...very good in relation to what they cost.
Then..B&W P9 you buy here in Sweden used for between € 480-550:-,...a bargain-price.

I bought mine for € 515:-,then they were only played 10 hours...bought them from one who did not understand the meaning of "burn-in"????.
They cost new here in Sweden over €900:-.

I see it a bit like this,I like closed speakers,not ported.
Ported loudspeakers I see a bit as a compromise,it's more complicated to get into a good closed design.
Also enjoy more the character of closed speaker constructions.

The same ratio I see in headphones,I like the closed constructions....you get a tighter more articulated rendition.
Okay, you might miss some details,but the musical performer usually gets better,and it's always the most important thing for me.

◾Then we have a dividing line, "Flat Earth", against the rest.
I am a "flat earth" guy,as Linn and Naim were in the 80's and forwards...I has been that since 1983.

I have heard so many high resolution systems and headphones,it's impressive for a while,... but where is the feeling,the musical joy,..that makes you want to go down on your knees and play "air guitar" when you hear a song....and not just sit and listen to the details.

This is what I always strive for,whether it's for headphones or music-systems...the joy,musicality,foot tapping etc, etc.
Usually you will find it at the expense of, you get to sacrifice some fine details in the music presentation.

I've had heard the headphones "Emre" mentions,I prefer my B&W P9 in the system I built up.!
Of course there are better headphones,but it is a matter of finding the synergy of the products you bring together,when you build up your headphone system.
If you do not do that,so it does not matter how expensive headphones you buy.

Perhaps I should mention that it is only 2 years since I started with headphones,wanted a couple to be able to easily listen to all the music-tips,clip,video's that all friends sent to me.
After a lot of investigative I bought the B&W P7, which was good in relation to price.
Okey,started with a couple of test-winning In-Ear,but they quickly went out.

I did not want to spend so much money,just would have them to listen to the clip.

But you know how it is with this interest????,so after a while I started comparing different headphone amplifiers,USB and ehternet cables etc, etc....yes everything around,..Just everything around,..I promise.

It took me 7-8 months of very intense testing, before I found products that collaborated so it became a whole in synergy.
Now I have the privilege to be able to borrow just about anything within Sweden's borders, so as you can see,it facilitates a great deal when to find the synergy between different products.

After I was done,and the headphone system played as I wanted to.
So,..I remember what I said in the phone to my equally mad hifi friend......

"If my active Linn Isobarik had had such a bass rendering,I would have been happy."

And,...this was with mine,believe it or not quite cheap (€360:-) B&W P7 ????.
After this I became almost a headphone maniac,and that trip has continued,but it is another history ????.

You who do not know,Linn Isobarik is known for it's eminent bass rendition.

And as with the music system,...everything before the speaker is more important than the speaker itself.
SOURCE FIRST my friends,..SOURCE FIRST,also applies here.
Everything before the headphones is more important than the headphones itself....within reasonable limits.But I think you understand that.

Oops,..this been a long post,WELL,...had some time over,but now it's time for coffee ☕.

/Peder ????

Given the original question about train and plane. My personal optimization is Nova +B&W 804D3 for normal hours. I have a Schitt Mjolnir 2 headphone Amp in my living room for late sessions and Focal utopia headphones. That's an awesome and expensive combo. I find I use my chord mojo/poly combo more though amd listen in bed with the Focals.

When travelling I just use Spotify downloaded onto my Samsing Note 8 and bose QC35s. The exclusion of the outside world and utility for conf calls in airports wins all day long for me. Sound is so so but the exclusion of outside sound is so good.