Naim Amps

Again, that's subjective; some (myself included) find the older stuff more musical/less Hi-Fi sounding, more focused on the music, less so on the superficial Hi-Fi stuff (soundstage, imaging etc.), resulting in a more engaging, involving listen; others, of course, disagree, finding modern Naim just as musical (maybe even more so), but also 'better' at the Hi-Fi stuff.

That's the kind of statement I always find puzzling. We are talking about reproduced music, aren't we? Isn't hifi about the accurate reproduction of music - with all those elements that you describe as superficial? Isn't the reproduction of music in your own lounge totally artificial anyway? Don't listeners wish to have the whole experience, the voices of the instruments accurately reproduced as they were recorded? I won't go on, as there appear to have been lots of threads on the subject.

Incidentally, I've had a chrome bumper combo (which I still use and enjoy today) and a "black" amp. Both are very musical, the "black" amp possibly more so because it reproduces the music more accurately.

trunkmonkey posted:

On reflection, I think the Supernait 2 is a bit ambitious price wise.  I thought they were cheaper second hand. What about the Nait 5i - does that represent the modern Naim sound, or fall somewhere in between?

I only have Linn Majik entry level speakers which I think are easy enough to drive. I have some Arcam's too, if necessary.

Just my personal opinion, but I’d suggest you find an XS rather then a 5i. I’ve owned both and they have very different sound signatures and I’d say the XS is much better in every way. The XS is warmer and I found the 5i to be more shouty especially as you turn up the volume, I don’t think the smaller power supply on the 5i like being turned up very much. I also think the XS is more engaging and has better accuracy on the tone of instruments. Used should find them for $1400 give or take USD

SamClaus posted:

Again, that's subjective; some (myself included) find the older stuff more musical/less Hi-Fi sounding, more focused on the music, less so on the superficial Hi-Fi stuff (soundstage, imaging etc.), resulting in a more engaging, involving listen; others, of course, disagree, finding modern Naim just as musical (maybe even more so), but also 'better' at the Hi-Fi stuff.

That's the kind of statement I always find puzzling. We are talking about reproduced music, aren't we? Isn't hifi about the accurate reproduction of music - with all those elements that you describe as superficial? Isn't the reproduction of music in your own lounge totally artificial anyway? Don't listeners wish to have the whole experience, the voices of the instruments accurately reproduced as they were recorded? I won't go on, as there appear to have been lots of threads on the subject.

Isn’t all hifi compromised though? I truly believe people vary in their needs, even between non-audiophiles, some being more sensitive to one type of compromise than another. I really liked Alba’s comments and the way he seemed to acknowledge this.

Callas01 posted:

Just my personal opinion, but I’d suggest you find an XS rather then a 5i. I’ve owned both and they have very different sound signatures and I’d say the XS is much better in every way. The XS is warmer and I found the 5i to be more shouty especially as you turn up the volume, I don’t think the smaller power supply on the 5i like being turned up very much. I also think the XS is more engaging and has better accuracy on the tone of instruments. Used should find them for $1400 give or take USD

Thanks Callas. I sourced a 5i already but will bear your comments in mind if I wants to progress up the ladder.

The kernel is it’s reproduction. And everybody chooses his or her way to get as close as they want to their ideal, whatever that is...

Bert Schurink posted:

The kernel is it’s reproduction. And everybody chooses his or her way to get as close as they want to {their} ideal, {whatever that is...}

By George, I think you've nailed it!

It's personal! 

Personally I like home reproductive music!

I do enjoy the intimate Cafe over the large Cathedral/ Amphitheater presentation!

With that being said, the tail end of most quarter million Systems seems to have it all:

Amp>Speakers

Clear Clean Accurate High frequencies

Tight Thumping impactful Low frequencies

Voices that are indistinguishable from the Artist!

All delivered from  a Dark Inky Background!

What ever that means! Lol!

As one Audiophile Reviewer use to say:

There are two types of Systems:

The very best, and very close to the best for a lot less!

I prefer the latter!

Enjoy Your Music, The Why!

Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

Personally I like home reproductive music!

 

In that context, I tend to think of all music as just background music 

ChrisSU posted:

Allante93 posted:

Personally I like home reproductive music!

 

In that context, I tend to think of all music as just background music 

I have to side with @Allante93 here. Despite the masses of expensive pro equipment employed in both live gigs and even the best THX cinemas, what lets down both live music and cinema experience for me is the SPLs. Unless you're the cookie cutter cutout of a model audiophile who is only into Jazz or classical  (and yeah there are a lot who fit that but not the majority), then live music means amped music. 

For live gigs big and small, I have a hard time catching any lyrics to a song I don't already know. And often look at one of band members thinking "I can see you playing that instrument but damned if I can pick it out." All because it is too damn loud. Even live Jazz un-micced in a venue too small pushes over the top. 

Best live rock I ever heard was Led Zeppelin rehearsing unplugged with just their own guitar monitors on. It was loud but I could hear them clearly. The main gig that evening was awful sound-wise.

Ditto for cinema. I find an even modest ($3000 and up for amp and speakers) home cinema can beat the real thing simply by virtue of being able to have dialogue at realistic dialogue levels. I'm positive the Dolby Atmos THX setup is infinitely more capable but when the soubd of people just talking in a restaurant scene or locking a door makes you wince, when thengs get aurally busy (gunfire, explosions, space ships etc.) it starts to lose the plot (no pun intended).

I like things realistically loud with headroom to allow dynamic range to mean something. I can get that at home. I can't get it at a live gig or the cinema. I can however get my sympathetic  tinnitus aggravated by the latter.

So give me music reproduced at home for serious listening any day.

But as you suggest - that doesn't apply to classical/jazz. i would agree with Allante that the best music to listen to at home is the one that doesn't sound ridiculously big in your music-room/lounge. Somehow, a full-scale symphony orchestra can't be reproduced realistically in the home.

I really like the 5i. It has excellent timing and synchronisation between players, which I think I'm quite sensitive to and really appreciate. It also seems to extract mood and atmosphere before the music even begins properly. There's real anticipation. It's seems a bit more lifelike too. My existing setup cost a lot more and so it's a fair bit more refined, but that's only to be expected. 

Overall, I think I prefer what it does more of the time, although not all of the time, and of course I need to leave it in place a good while. I will also go back to my usual setup afterwards to confirm what I've been missing and how I feel about that.

One reservation is that sometimes the playing seems a little rushed. Of course, I don't know what's there on the LP, but my suspicion is that it's exaggerating the playing a little. It's not a big deal though and probably something I'll get used to. Has anyone else felt like that?

It doesn't play melodies as effortlessly, as expected. It's weird cos this doesn't always manifest itself on the tracks I expect it to, but I suppose tuneful ballads and harmonies is where it suffers most. Maybe I wasn't a born Linnie cos this isn't the end of the world to me, although I'd like to improve upon it, if possible. Yes, I want my cake and eat it  

No quick decisions or purchases this time, but what Naim setup would offer better tune playing ability whilst retaining all the 5i benefits? My KK should get £2.5k so budget would be about £4k on the used market by the time I sell the power amp too, although I would probably go through a Naim dealer next time. It would just give me something interesting to read up on, but I know you will tell me I need to dem, which is of course correct.

Thanks in advance.

Whispering Supernait 1.

Alba1320 posted:

 

if you still feel a switch to Naim is in order, I'd try some JV era Naim, by way of comparison to the 5i, as this would indicate the possible direction to go, in terms of pre/power combos, should you wish to go further up the Naim ladder.

Yes, forgot about that. A Nait 3 then.

Alba1320 posted:

 Interesting that you seem to feel that the 5i is (more than?) holding its own, in some respects at least, against your existing KK/Power amp.

I'm sure there are many folks that would completely disagree if they heard the two setups. It's certainly not black and white as both have their strengths. Let's see how things go and where the Nait 3 fits in.

Alba1320 posted:

it would also be useful to get some new albums, that you listen to exclusively with the 5i for a while, and when fully familiar with them, then try them on you existing Linn set-up.

Good idea.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Whispering Supernait 1.

Thanks. I will bank that suggestion for later on in the process.

trunkmonkey posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Whispering Supernait 1.

Thanks. I will bank that suggestion for later on in the process.

If you like the Nait 5i and come all the way from Linn I'm quite sure you like the Supernait 1 as well - but it comes with extra benefits. Its absolute strength is that it is very dynamic. It is more refined than the Nait 5i, but refined is a strange word in the context of the Supernait 1 because it likes to work. It's a real work horse, or even better: slave driver. Its a bit dark, like the Nait 5 (no i).

If you look for a more 'hifi' amp, the Supernait 2 is better. SN2 is cleaner - likely by usage of the DR technology.

Trunkmonkey,

I don't know where you are in the world, but my suggestion would be to look at the WigWam or Pinkfish and try yo get along to some bake offs. Listening to a system that the owner considers good is always interesting, and will give you a wider context.

M

So, the Nait 5i didn't work out in the end. It did offer 'something', especially on uptempo rock/new wave, but I soon gravitated back to normal which was much more refined and enjoyable over time. A power upgrade and I got back most of what was missing - i.e. vitality.

So then, I stupidly bought a Nait 1, cos I thought it would be interesting and perhaps a better option for my second system. It's a green LED version but has just been serviced by Darren at Class A and he reckons there is no difference now its been serviced.

Oh, my God. It's the most effortless listening experience I've ever had. It's like plugging the LP12 into my head. I don't feel there is any effort to understand the music. It can play in the background with zero irritation. It just washes over me in the most satisfying manner.

I just don't understand it. It's not as tuneful in terms of following a specific instrument, but the whole peice of music is so effortless to listen to. I notice I can follow multiple instruments at once with great ease. I seem to a person that gets more reward from this ability than hearing better tune.

Also, I now understand Naim boogie. If there is a dance-like beat then it really comes across whereas normally this would be flat matter-of-fact beat.

What I don't like is the poor sound quality, by today's standards. I don't know how I can improve that whilst keeping this effortless musicality. Would the 42/110 do that, or just give me more power. I don't actually need any more power, I need more refinement, if possible. Perhaps, after a few months, I could swap the modern Linn Majik speaker for something a bit more forgiving, not that the 140s are ruthlessly revealing or anything, but times have moved on.

Damn! What a mess to be in I just spent more on upgrading my power amp than this tiny thing cost me.

Consider a 62/90 or 72/140. I had the same experience as you. Now I have the supernait as my dynamic powerhouse and a 72/140 for its silk musicality.

There have recently been quite some converts to the older naim stable.

And suddenly you understand what the meaning is of Prat.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Consider a 62/90 or 72/140. I had the same experience as you. Now I have the supernait as my dynamic powerhouse and a 72/140 for its silk musicality.

There have recently been quite some converts to the older naim stable.

Thanks, I will investigate those two but probably need to wait a while.

Yes, I can hear why. I briefly tried my usual setup and ... well ... it wasn't the same, nothing like as enjoyable.

I know I got over-excited last time, but this is different. This comes with a feeling of dissapointment that is only made better by listening to some music

What speakers would be a good match, out of interest? Room is 4 x 4.5m with solid walls. I used to have Kans but would not want to go back to small stand mounts. The Majiks do sound good with it, but perhaps a little less open top end would help hide the lack of refinement.

Compared Nait 5i (ok musicality but sounded bad) with Nait XS (less musical but sounded better) and SuperNait (as musikal as 5i but sounded best)

Neither of these were "good enough" so entering 202/200. Better but still not satisfying. Adding HiCap and "the smal PSU" (name??)  = BANG!!  Now it was good, really good.  

???? JANÅ,....Have you already moved on from 152.155.?

/Peder ????

I am very much on board with Feeling Zen in regard to live/reproduced. I go to live music at least once a week, however I do pick my venues. Whilst I play a huge range of music at home, (at reasonably high levels), when I am choosing a live gig to attend it tends to jazz or classical.  We have an amazing jazz club here where the sound is mostly direct with minmal reinforcement. Most times you are only meters from the stage. Bliss.

Our concert hall is also great, and it's easy to find good chamber or solo/duo classcal with no amplification. Again fantastic.

Sure the music is important but if you're standing in a crowd getting turgid bass, muddled vocals and razor blade highs it sucks. I have had some amazing nights with rock and blues in loud loud venues but the chances are more  that the sound will be a let down. 

Whereas in my lounge, it always sounds great. The recorded jazz and classical doesn't match the clarity of live playing but is still great. And mostly the engagement I get playing rock or blues is better than live. Sure no crowd "vibe" and no spontaneous moments but it is easier to get carried away with the music. There have been some transcendent nights at big rock concerts, (Rolling Stones and U2 had great performance and killer PAs), but often it leaves me a little disappointed. 

Finaly, I had a baby grand Bechstein at home for many years. I don't play but my lovely ex was pretty good. Made my active Isobariks sound flat by comparison. I know how much is lost in the recording and reproduction chain.

And addressing the ever patient poster's query, I do think Naim equipment does better than most at keeping the engagement factor intact. Whether you call it boogie facor or PRaT who cares. Me, I am mostly a grinning idiot in my lounge at home.

Peder posted:

???? JANÅ,....Have you already moved on from 152.155.?

/Peder ????

Nope, the demo was before I bought my setup.

The 202/200/Hicap was too much money, had to settle with the XS-setup.

Any thoughts on speakers to suit the Nait 1?

I've tried my Katans and, whilst they don't boogie like the Majik 140s, or have the same level of effortlessness, they do hide the slight shrill hardness that the Majik's convey on some LPs.

I've also noticed the Nait 1 can become slightly fatiguing after a while. Certainly not enough to put me off, but wondered if others notice this. I mostly listen to rock/pop, but listening to Beethoven's Pastoral earlier, it didn't have the normal calming effect. Again, switching to Katans did help calm things down a bit, but it still wasn't as relaxing as normal. Maybe, I'm expecting too much.

Ideally, I'd like to M140 boogie and effortlessness, with the Katan calmness and sound. I may try the Ninka but wondered what else folks could recommend. 

I don't think I will find perfection, but no harm in trying to improve things.

The Majiks may be too capable for the Nait1. Have you considered a modern low cost speaker? The performance in the budget arena has gone through massive leaps. Qacoustics work welk with Naim. Maybe you can test out a pair on 3020i or something in that price bracket. You might find it compliments the Nait's strengths and masks any weaknesses better than the far more capable Majik 140s.