Naim Amps

I should clarify for @TRUNKMONKEY that I realise they are looking at floorstanders. But a modern budget standmount struck me as a better fit. There are always budget floorstanders too.

Trunkmonkey, Possibly I didn’t read every line of this thread so maybe old news... but speaker cables match is of grate importance with Naim amps (especially older designs) and I would suggest you get some Naca 5 (if you not aready got some) before investigating speakers further. You may find some cable you prefer after extensive testing but Naca 5 would always be my recommended starting point. Many other cabels may make speakers sound slightly fatiguing in my experience...

Aktiv Briks in the rear conservatory (LK280s)

Active SBLs in the front conservatory (NAP250s)

SWMBO prefers the Linn system, I prefer the Naim.

And for what’s worth, the 5.1 surround for the TV is Meridian 500(0) series.

Too many boxes?

Joppe posted:

Trunkmonkey, Possibly I didn’t read every line of this thread so maybe old news... but speaker cables match is of grate importance with Naim amps (especially older designs) and I would suggest you get some Naca 5 (if you not aready got some) before investigating speakers further. You may find some cable you prefer after extensive testing but Naca 5 would always be my recommended starting point. Many other cabels may make speakers sound slightly fatiguing in my experience...

Thanks. Will do.

I've read a Naim recommendation elsewhere reference a 3.5m minimum length. My system is located between the speakers and existing K400 is only 2.5m long. Do you, or anyone else, happen to know if the 3.5m limitation also relates back to the much older amps, such as the original Nait?

feeling_zen posted:

I should clarify for @TRUNKMONKEY that I realise they are looking at floorstanders. But a modern budget standmount struck me as a better fit. There are always budget floorstanders too.

Thanks feeling_zen. I would prefer efficient floor standers, but the priority is to get the speakers working well with the Nait, so I'm not completely against going back to stand mounts.

I might try some Royd Minstrels first which get recommended in some old threads, but will certainly consider Q-Acoustics as I've already heard the big ones and enjoyed them.

But it does make sense to address the speaker cable first, just in case that can fix it.

trunkmonkey posted:

 Do you, or anyone else, happen to know if the 3.5m limitation also relates back to the much older amps, such as the original Nait?

I believe it does, and I believe it is both for sound and amp stability purposes. That said, I have no personal experience of having shorter than the recommended length or of chrome bumper amps. 

The 3.5m minimum is even more important with the older amplifiers. 5m plus will give the best sound quality. 

trunkmonkey posted:

Joppe posted:

Trunkmonkey, Possibly I didn’t read every line of this thread so maybe old news... but speaker cables match is of grate importance with Naim amps (especially older designs) and I would suggest you get some Naca 5 (if you not aready got some) before investigating speakers further. You may find some cable you prefer after extensive testing but Naca 5 would always be my recommended starting point. Many other cabels may make speakers sound slightly fatiguing in my experience...

Thanks. Will do.

I've read a Naim recommendation elsewhere reference a 3.5m minimum length. My system is located between the speakers and existing K400 is only 2.5m long. Do you, or anyone else, happen to know if the 3.5m limitation also relates back to the much older amps, such as the original Nait?

K400 is biwire cable, which I would strongly recommend you avoid with Naim amps, especially when it is too short. The cable itself is perfectly compatible when used in single wire form, but I would change it asap. 

I think that a 72 or 102/180 whilst still relatively cheap will give you the musicality  of the Nait 1 and also a bit more control over the speakers you already own.  Alternatively you could find a speaker that suits the Nait better,  Proac T 10, Neat Iota Alpha or one of Dynaudio's small speakers.

The best thing is that you seem to have a very good ear and also a definite idea of what it is you want and like and I wish you much luck and enjoyment looking.

Thanks Joppa and /hungryhalibut and Chrissu, ref cables. I will get 5m of Naca 5. Do you think I should not use the amp until the 5m cable is in place? My K400 is cut in half down the length so I’m only single wiring. Didn’t prefer bi-wiring the one time I compared on a Linn amp.

Thanks Bob for the speaker and amp suggestions, and also your kind words. It’s a brave new world, but I like it

One other thing I’ve been pondering. Any idea how Naim achieved such an effortless sound. It’s the sort of thing Linn aims to achieve and yet this is miles ahead of any Linn amp I’ve heard in the past 10 years. The Nait 5i doesn’t do this either. The Nait 1 just presents such a cohesive whole. There’s zero sense of the various instruments fighting for attention or being fractionally out of sync with one another. Perhaps modern components are not like they were 30 years ago? I’m still surprised and somewhat perplexed by its strengths.

I'm trying to find where in the thread it says how long your current K400 runs are. Unless they are under 3m I don't think swapping for A5 is going to change things significantly.

K400 is electrically near identical to Linn K20 which actually is identical to Naim A4 cable that the early Naim gear was designed to work with in the first place. 

It’s 2.5m. Darren at Class A also said K400 would be fine but I never thought to mention the cable length to him.

trunkmonkey posted:

It’s 2.5m. Darren at Class A also said K400 would be fine but I never thought to mention the cable length to him.

If you’re using the K400 as single wire instead of biwire I think you’ll be OK as it is the correct spec for Naim amps. Not ideal to have the short lengths, but as a stopgap until you get some A5, it will tide you over. 

trunkmonkey posted:

One other thing I’ve been pondering. Any idea how Naim achieved such an effortless sound. It’s the sort of thing Linn aims to achieve and yet this is miles ahead of any Linn amp I’ve heard in the past 10 years. The Nait 5i doesn’t do this either. The Nait 1 just presents such a cohesive whole. There’s zero sense of the various instruments fighting for attention or being fractionally out of sync with one another. Perhaps modern components are not like they were 30 years ago? I’m still surprised and somewhat perplexed by its strengths.

We live in a high tech pretentious world which always tries to show the good things. Open Facebook and you see how perfect other peoples lives are. Open the news, and it is entirely clear that live is not perfect. It appears that we are all pretending to be much better than we really are.

The same applies to Amplifiers. They render hideous amounts of detail and push out the highest and lowest tones without effort. But then, suddenly this could not convince us anymore and the music leaves us cold.

I believe that the designers of the old Nait and the old Naim amps not only knew what they could do, but also knew what the could not do. They did not try to answer the unanswerable question and left the amp as far as they could stretch whilst keeping an convincing, pure amplifier without pretentions.

I believe it is the beauty of imperfection.

World class design is only reached with Simplicity.

Thanks for sharing Ardbeg10y.

trunkmonkey posted:

One other thing I’ve been pondering. Any idea how Naim achieved such an effortless sound. It’s the sort of thing Linn aims to achieve and yet this is miles ahead of any Linn amp I’ve heard in the past 10 years. The Nait 5i doesn’t do this either. The Nait 1 just presents such a cohesive whole. There’s zero sense of the various instruments fighting for attention or being fractionally out of sync with one another. Perhaps modern components are not like they were 30 years ago? I’m still surprised and somewhat perplexed by its strengths.

Exactly how I feel about my 110. Whenever I feel like I want to replace it (with something bigger), I just listen some more and go naaah, it stays. 

Alba1320 posted:

@trunkmonkey, this might (or not! ) be of interest.

From an interview with Julian Vereker, by Malcolm Steward, in 1989:

JV: One has to accept the inherent compromises of each design and pick whichever suits one the best. There’s an answer that’s right for you and one that’s right for me. The fact that I would violently disagree with an awful lot of right-for-them answers – the particular thing of soundstage, detail, and depth and imagery, i.e. the presentation being more important than the content, I think is totally wrong. There’s no point in having great presentation unless you have the content. I’d far rather talk to Einstein on the telephone than talk face to face to a doorman in a hotel. One may be ‘live’ and ‘there’ and visual and all the rest, with perfect presentation and fidelity but it’s the content of the conversation that’s important.

 

JV used antipoles here, but what we want is talking face to face to Einstein. O, no wait, lets make it Marilyn Monroe and forget about the talking ...

Ps, I would really appreciate when someone chips in here capable of explaining how the old Naim magic is realized (and what went wrong).

Einstein was said to be rather boring - and I've come across some very entertaining doormen (doorpeople?).

feeling_zen posted:

K400 is electrically near identical to Linn K20 which actually is identical to Naim A4 cable that the early Naim gear was designed to work with in the first place.

Is K20 actually preferable to NACA5 for an early Nait?

Linn has discontinued K400, which sounds better than K20, so I’m unlikely to have that as an option. I don’t much like it’s replacement, called K200, although it looks very neat.

Alba1320 posted:

@trunkmonkey, this might (or not! ) be of interest.

From an interview with Julian Vereker, by Malcolm Steward, in 1989:

JV: One has to accept the inherent compromises of each design and pick whichever suits one the best. There’s an answer that’s right for you and one that’s right for me. The fact that I would violently disagree with an awful lot of right-for-them answers – the particular thing of soundstage, detail, and depth and imagery, i.e. the presentation being more important than the content, I think is totally wrong. There’s no point in having great presentation unless you have the content. I’d far rather talk to Einstein on the telephone than talk face to face to a doorman in a hotel. One may be ‘live’ and ‘there’ and visual and all the rest, with perfect presentation and fidelity but it’s the content of the conversation that’s important.

Thanks for the quote. Well, he certainly did a great job. I’m a fan!

...and thanks for suggesting I hear the CB amps. Basically, it’s all your fault

charlesphoto posted:

Exactly how I feel about my 110. Whenever I feel like I want to replace it (with something bigger), I just listen some more and go naaah, it stays. 

If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it.

keen to hear the 110 some day

I have tried all four Naim ranges if you include the Uniti Range not a huge amount but enough to be able to form an educated judgement.

32.5/HC/90

32.5/HC/110

Olive 250

102/NAPSC/HC/180

122X/FCXS/150

202/NAPSC/HC/200

282/NAPSC/HC/250-2

282/NAPSC/DTC/300

ND5XS

UQ2 

In my humble opinion Naim reached a pinnacle with the Olive range and of the newer boxes I have owned the little UQ2 was the stand out product of the rest as good as it all undoubtedly was I was always looking for something more from it.

Alba1320 posted:

@trunkmonkey, this might (or not! ) be of interest.

From an interview with Julian Vereker, by Malcolm Steward, in 1989:

JV: One has to accept the inherent compromises of each design and pick whichever suits one the best. There’s an answer that’s right for you and one that’s right for me. The fact that I would violently disagree with an awful lot of right-for-them answers – the particular thing of soundstage, detail, and depth and imagery, i.e. the presentation being more important than the content, I think is totally wrong. There’s no point in having great presentation unless you have the content. I’d far rather talk to Einstein on the telephone than talk face to face to a doorman in a hotel. One may be ‘live’ and ‘there’ and visual and all the rest, with perfect presentation and fidelity but it’s the content of the conversation that’s importa

Yes, that's all very well but why not have it all - there are quite a few amplifiers out there with the 'boogie factor' claimed by Naim amp enthusiasts but with fantastic soundstage, detail, depth and imagery as well. Why deliberately limit one's options?

I would personally far rather listen to Pink Floyd on a cheap transistor radio than to, say, Morrissey (sorry HH) on my own hi-fi system. However, if given the opportunity, I would listen to Pink Floyd on my own hi-fi system rather than on my cheap transistor radio, and if given the choice, wouldn't you rather talk to Einstein directly rather than over a telephone line?

Now, I have heard quite a few Naim based systems that I have enjoyed, and those people who choose to purchase Naim amplification have every right to do so. However, maybe JV's philosophy is why no Naim amp has quite made my final shortlist when auditioning for my own system. It is quite possible that I might prefer Naim amplification for a certain type of music, but I have quite eclectic tastes and my overall preference is for something a little more subtle and rounded (to my ears).

Just keep an open mind, that's all.

Alba and Bob, I’m keen to try the Olive range too, starting with Nait 2, but they are not so easy to find and quite pricey.