Chord launches new M Scaler for Hugo TT

To me the people buy Chord over Naim because they prefer some aspect. Roy George is still at Naim 3 days a week listening and voicing the product, so no change likely. If Naim ever did go down the FPGA route I doubt it would sound like Dave. I have no axe to grind here as my next step or choice is NDX2 vs ND555. Whichever I prefer I will demo out against Blu2/Dave. If I like the latter I will hold on until the mscaler arrives. They are all great products, just depends on ones own lugholes for final approval to reach for wallet. I also need a preamp, probably 252, so big outlay.

We listened to a technical review from Steve Sells and even despite the old dac technology they do believe this is their best product. Having heard it twice now the jury s still out for me, the NDX2 and 555ps i suspect may have a punchier sound, need to hear them both in more ideal conditions.

TT2 + Mscaler + ND5xs2 you are still under 10K vs 20K of ND555.......

Or Dave + Mscaler + ND5xs2 your are at 14K vs 20K and got a world class headphone amp as well...

If you have 555ps idle is a different story..... 

İf you dont have TT2/Mscaler is a serious competition against both Nd555 and NDX2...

Many people are using Hugo with their expensive naim streamers.... 

Yes that may be where I end up if I like the sound from Dave......I have heard it before but as not convinced, need a final try.

Folks, I had a home demo of BLU2 + Dave, the music was absolutely awesome. I hadn't played any CD for a long time but it was definitely very impressive. Interestingly, the CD sounded better than via the Melco USB out. I had to use the NDS digital out to match the CD sound quality. Now waiting for an M-Scaler demo while I'm experimenting with the Dave direct to the 300DR.

I tried Dave direct into a 300 dr was rather underwhelmed which may be why I need another try with a preamp.

Emre posted:

TT2 + Mscaler + ND5xs2 you are still under 10K vs 20K of ND555.......

Or Dave + Mscaler + ND5xs2 your are at 14K vs 20K and got a world class headphone amp as well...

If you have 555ps idle is a different story..... 

İf you dont have TT2/Mscaler is a serious competition against both Nd555 and NDX2...

Many people are using Hugo with their expensive naim streamers.... 

 

These products are not voiced in the same way and play music differently. 

there is a Naim house sound as well as a Chord electronics sound and also a linn sound

you pays your money and you make your choices same like BMW vs Mercedes vs Porsche

Totally agree analog. It was interesting take on different company views on music that at the ND555 demo Jason said that Roy George would change the room acoustics if needed, but not use some digital music processing to overcome room sound quality issues. Other companies obviously feel differently, down to the punter to decide.

Yes even if Naim would use Fpga (by the way all linn streamers use FPGA) I doubt they would sound like a chord electronics source

its down to hundreds of other factors.... 

... the end result is what really matters... is it musical or not to your ears...

Emre posted:

TT2 + Mscaler + ND5xs2 you are still under 10K vs 20K of ND555.......

Or Dave + Mscaler + ND5xs2 your are at 14K vs 20K and got a world class headphone amp as well...

If you have 555ps idle is a different story..... 

İf you dont have TT2/Mscaler is a serious competition against both Nd555 and NDX2...

Many people are using Hugo with their expensive naim streamers.... 

 

tt2/mscaler  vs ndx2, perhaps, but vs nd555/555dr, i don’t believe it can be a serious competition.   Anyway these comparaisons would be interesting to make.

Try to demo the tt2/msaler vs your cd555, if possible.  Enjoy your cd555, i am jealous !

Gazza posted:

I tried Dave direct into a 300 dr was rather underwhelmed which may be why I need another try with a preamp.

 

I don’t know if it is simply down to the difference between Naim and other power amps, or simply that you prefer what a Naim preamp adds to the sound - presumably either way creating the ‘Naim sound’.

analogmusic posted:

Emre posted:

TT2 + Mscaler + ND5xs2 you are still under 10K vs 20K of ND555.......

Or Dave + Mscaler + ND5xs2 your are at 14K vs 20K and got a world class headphone amp as well...

If you have 555ps idle is a different story..... 

İf you dont have TT2/Mscaler is a serious competition against both Nd555 and NDX2...

Many people are using Hugo with their expensive naim streamers.... 

 

These products are not voiced in the same way and play music differently. 

there is a Naim house sound as well as a Chord electronics sound and also a linn sound

you pays your money and you make your choices same like BMW vs Mercedes vs Porsche

 

And somewhere there is neutral, accurate reproduction - the question is, which gets closest?

As to which gets closest everyone will have different subjective views. Naim may argue that recording artists on their own label they know how a recording should sound, and part of their development process? Others too could argue this as well, in the end down to the person listening to decide on which kit to purchase.

it's not quite that simple. Everything affects the final result. I've heard a Naim power line make a difference even on a Blu2 - which is a CD transport and Upscaler. It should not, but it does.

as for neutral, accurate reproduction, what is that?

It can change depending on the speaker, wires, room, taste, and expectations and hundred other factors... The only real standard is live unamplified music... everything else after that is  an interpretation or an interpolation.....

analogmusic posted:

it's not quite that simple. Everything affects the final result. I've heard a Naim power line make a difference even on a Blu2 - which is a CD transport and Upscaler. It should not, but it does.

as for neutral, accurate reproduction, what is that?

It can change depending on the speaker, wires, room, taste, and expectations and hundred other factors... The only real standard is live unamplified music... everything else after that is  an interpretation or an interpolation.....

 

Neutral/accurate reproduction is presenting in the room as close as possible to what was captured in the recording as sold.

Of course every component plays a part, and aspects of some may compensate for aspects of others, while supports, cables etc may have a greaterr or lesser effect depending on the susceptibility of the components they link, etc etc. 

Did some roon dsp upsamples and doesn‘t like it (output to dsd128). Didn‘t understand the benefit here....

it Would be nice if Roon could do for 500 dollars what blu2 does for 8000 gbp

analogmusic posted:

Yes even if Naim would use Fpga (by the way all linn streamers use FPGA) I doubt they would sound like a chord electronics source

its down to hundreds of other factors.... 

... the end result is what really matters... is it musical or not to your ears...

Remember Naim use the AD SHARC processor in a way not dissimilar to a Xilinx FPGA for DSP... it’s the DAC itself with Chord that is bespoke designed with an FPGA as opposed to using an  off the shelf DAC device such as the TI PCM1704K that Naim use.

Agreed it’s the combination of a long tap WTA filter and also their proprietary Pulse Array Dac....

but still I believe that even if Naim designed their own custom Dac it still would not sound like a chord electronics source !

Simon as you’re read yourself in the Ndac white paper Steve Sells states Naim prefer an IIR filter to FIR filter used by Rob Watts for what Naim want to achieve in their sources. 

indeed one of the benefits of having a much larger tap WTA filter in Blu2 or Mscaler is that the power supply load on Dave gets an easier load as the processing is now shared.

so it’s a combination of way too many factors ... 

Chord even stated if you remove the boards from the expensive Dave “choral” case and chassis it won’t sound the same, and indeed Linn state that about their flagship KDS streamers.

If I remember rightly Steve Sells said both approaches are not perfect, and involve compromises, but they choose,the approach that delivers the sound that Naim desire. I am sure Simon or Richard can give a better technical summary, but for my layman’s ears that’s what I thought he was trying to say.

What Steve sells actually stated in his Ndac white paper

“Even though, in a perfect world, FIR should be able to implement any IIR response to the resolution of the DACs, we found that processing loads, arithmetic noise, etc had greater influence on sound quality than the phase errors that IIR filters inherently introduce.”

All these solutions have compromises - it's down to the particular designer to chose the best approach based on the constraints they have to work with (cost, time, application, real estate etc).  Chord and Naim use a completely different approach for the digital to analogue conversion but both end up delivering on SQ.

Which solution you ultimately prefer to have at home...

Thanks Analog

The M scaler offers so many options for combination: e.g., how will it gel as a front-end to a naim Dac/NDX/272, compared to Mscaler -> Qutest? And will the Hugo-hardliners amongst us have to accept that Mscaler->HugoTT might be inferior to Mscaler->Qutest (given the 500k taps restriction of Mscaler with the Hugo/HugoTT)?

Simon, thanks for all your input on this thread, though I must admit I haven't quite understood as yet if the 'taps' in the M scaler are serving the same (filtering) purpose as those in a chord Dac? If so, then are there two filters in series?? Or are the taps in a chord Dac doing something completely different?

Cheers,

Stefan

It’s easy to get carried away with tech details but it’s what you prefer to listen to that really matters. I was surprised I preferred my trusty old Hugo TT to both Dave and Hugo 2.

Rob Watts and Steve Sells commentary and disclosure of technical details are refreshing and interesting but ultimately your purchase decision should be 100% your own ears.