Directly connected storage pros/cons/ideals (new Unitis or other)

Well exactly the same issues that cause sound differences with Ethernet occur with USB (transport clock crosstalk) ... and so I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve. With USB network attached storage you are dependent on the stability of the NAS USB PHY clock implementation. With Ethernet network attached storage you are mostly dependent on the PHY transport clock implementation of the nearest segment, ie the connecting switch port. Many USB connections behave not unlike a half duplex Ethernet connection.

For anyone with more than one streamer, the direct connection approach is severely limited....

best

David

David Hendon posted:

For anyone with more than one streamer, the direct connection approach is severely limited....

best

David

Unless it’s one if the new streamers, in which case it will also serve files to other streamers. For some, this can make a NAS unnecessary. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Well exactly the same issues that cause sound differences with Ethernet occur with USB (transport clock crosstalk) ... and so I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve. With USB network attached storage you are dependent on the stability of the NAS USB PHY clock implementation. With Ethernet network attached storage you are mostly dependent on the PHY transport clock implementation of the nearest segment, ie the connecting switch port. Many USB connections behave not unlike a half duplex Ethernet connection.

 

For sake of clarity in case I've confused the issue, I'm not talking about connecting a USB drive to a NAS, rather directly to the Novas's from or rear USB input, primarily in the hope of getting the Nova to decipher the Qobuz metadata better than Twonky.

Twonky tends to be ok for simple Artist/Album combinations but the problem is really with classical works/opera - Twonky for example splits Madam Butterfly into several separate items but same files on a USB stick attached to the Nova seem to be shown correctly.  Yes, it points to Twonky as much as Qobuz perhaps....

So if you see my query Simon assuming I do connect a larger drive to the USB in, I assume there will be differences in noise profiles from USB 2.0/3.0 devices, SSDs vs conventional hard drives and bus powered vs external powered ones.

The SSD is probably best assuming it will be powered satisfactorily as I can dangle it out of the way and at least it'll be quiet without clicks or whirring!

ChrisSU posted:

David Hendon posted:

For anyone with more than one streamer, the direct connection approach is severely limited....

best

David

Unless it’s one if the new streamers, in which case it will also serve files to other streamers. For some, this can make a NAS unnecessary. 

Yes, the Nova could happily to the NAS duties - for audio anyway, not checked to see if can serve anything else it can't play!

Alley Cat posted:

ChrisSU posted:

David Hendon posted:

For anyone with more than one streamer, the direct connection approach is severely limited....

best

David

Unless it’s one if the new streamers, in which case it will also serve files to other streamers. For some, this can make a NAS unnecessary. 

Yes, the Nova could happily to the NAS duties - for audio anyway, not checked to see if can serve anything else it can't play!

If you want it to play movies you’re out of luck!

If you also have non Naim setups around the house your also out of luck. It's also an ugly box hanging of your nice kit. I'll stick with my Nas hidden away from view in its own cupboard. I tested local  usb compared to music streamed of my Nas ages ago and it sounded no different on my Atom just like different network cables had no effect.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

If you also have non Naim setups around the house your also out of luck. It's also an ugly box hanging of your nice kit. I'll stick with my Nas hidden away from view in its own cupboard. I tested local  usb compared to music streamed of my Nas ages ago and it sounded no different on my Atom just like different network cables had no effect.

Not sure if we’re talking about the same thing here. The new streamers have UPnP servers on them, so it isn’t a proprietary system, and it will work with any UPnP streamer, not just Naim. Also, stick a USB drive in the rear port, and you can hide it from view. 

ChrisSU posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

If you also have non Naim setups around the house your also out of luck. It's also an ugly box hanging of your nice kit. I'll stick with my Nas hidden away from view in its own cupboard. I tested local  usb compared to music streamed of my Nas ages ago and it sounded no different on my Atom just like different network cables had no effect.

Not sure if we’re talking about the same thing here. The new streamers have UPnP servers on them, so it isn’t a proprietary system, and it will work with any UPnP streamer, not just Naim. Also, stick a USB drive in the rear port, and you can hide it from view. 

Yes, when server mode enabled, I can see the content of the Nova rear USB device on my Oppo players or other devices.

ChrisSU posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

If you also have non Naim setups around the house your also out of luck. It's also an ugly box hanging of your nice kit. I'll stick with my Nas hidden away from view in its own cupboard. I tested local  usb compared to music streamed of my Nas ages ago and it sounded no different on my Atom just like different network cables had no effect.

Not sure if we’re talking about the same thing here. The new streamers have UPnP servers on them, so it isn’t a proprietary system, and it will work with any UPnP streamer, not just Naim. Also, stick a USB drive in the rear port, and you can hide it from view. 

Sorry didn't realise that as dont use upnp at all only Roon. Still I would prefer not to have a disc attached to my hifi.

Having used both types of storage, I think it’s a bit of a case of other people’s mileage may vary. 

Ive  currently got an Atom with Hdd USB in the back. The advantages are: one less item plugged into the mains; if there is a network issue (maybe once a year, but Murphy’s law it’ll be when you’ve got guests) your music is unaffected; and virtually zero set-up knowledge needed. The disadvantages are: a bit more of a faff to add music as you’ve got to unplug the hdd from around the back of the Atom (solution. Keep a spare lead so you only unplug from the lead - the actual lead then stays in the Atom which is way less fiddly); and if you need multi room, I presume a NAS is more useful. Also note. Whilst the Hdd seems to work fine, I tried a Samsung SSD, and the Atom would not read from it. Tried Naim Support, but they’ve not come back with a solution yet. The only other issue I’ve had is that The Atom seems to struggle with remembering playlists (from my library, not Tidal) when using HDD. For the NAS. Other than multiroom, I suspect that the big advantage is in adding new music which is far simpler if you don’t have to disconnect / reconnect disc drives, and I think the subsequent re-indexing of music might be quicker too.   So all in all, I suspect it comes down to the user preferences. Still adding a lot of extra tunes to library and having many options for multitoom - a NAS makes sense. Library almost complete (only rarely add new music), not so fussed about multiroom and want to keep life as technically simple as possible- an HDD worth considering (though careful with SSD). Sorry for long post. My first post. Need to edit myself 

SiBrighton posted:

Having used both types of storage, I think it’s a bit of a case of other people’s mileage may vary. 

Ive  currently got an Atom with Hdd USB in the back. The advantages are: one less item plugged into the mains; if there is a network issue (maybe once a year, but Murphy’s law it’ll be when you’ve got guests) your music is unaffected; and virtually zero set-up knowledge needed. The disadvantages are: a bit more of a faff to add music as you’ve got to unplug the hdd from around the back of the Atom (solution. Keep a spare lead so you only unplug from the lead - the actual lead then stays in the Atom which is way less fiddly); and if you need multi room, I presume a NAS is more useful. Also note. Whilst the Hdd seems to work fine, I tried a Samsung SSD, and the Atom would not read from it. Tried Naim Support, but they’ve not come back with a solution yet. The only other issue I’ve had is that The Atom seems to struggle with remembering playlists (from my library, not Tidal) when using HDD. For the NAS. Other than multiroom, I suspect that the big advantage is in adding new music which is far simpler if you don’t have to disconnect / reconnect disc drives, and I think the subsequent re-indexing of music might be quicker too.   So all in all, I suspect it comes down to the user preferences. Still adding a lot of extra tunes to library and having many options for multitoom - a NAS makes sense. Library almost complete (only rarely add new music), not so fussed about multiroom and want to keep life as technically simple as possible- an HDD worth considering (though careful with SSD). Sorry for long post. My first post. Need to edit myself 

Interesting about the SSD - what was it formatted as?

Just realised I rushed to add stuff to the 1TB Samsung T5 last night from my Mac and it's formatted as ExFAT which the Nova may not handle.

I just plugged it in quickly to the from USB socket with an older USB flash drive in the rear, but only rear is seen ad my NAS devices have disappeared from the server list - I assume it's hanging due to ExFAT.

Hi Alley Cat.

Absolutely no idea what it is formatted to (hence my need for low technology!). It was straight out of the box, I copied FLAC files over to it from the PC. Plugged it into the Atom. Atom couldn’t read it. Not had the same problem with an HDD so have left the HDD plugged in instead. That works fine  

Keep promising myself a Saturday to try sorting it out, but the weather is too nice! Think that ultimately an SSD could be better, as when I add an album to the HDD it takes an age for the Atom’s music library to update/ re-index . I wonder if an SDD would be quicker. Tend to stockpile CDs and listen to their equivalent on Tidal. Then scan a job lot in one go to save time on re-indexing. Probably  an area where a NAS would be better !

Let us know if there is a different format that works for your SSD ( and let us know what it is) as would like to try the SSD to see if there are any practical advantages.  

Si

SiBrighton posted:

Hi Alley Cat.

Absolutely no idea what it is formatted to (hence my need for low technology!). It was straight out of the box, I copied FLAC files over to it from the PC. Plugged it into the Atom. Atom couldn’t read it. Not had the same problem with an HDD so have left the HDD plugged in instead. That works fine  

Keep promising myself a Saturday to try sorting it out, but the weather is too nice! Think that ultimately an SSD could be better, as when I add an album to the HDD it takes an age for the Atom’s music library to update/ re-index . I wonder if an SDD would be quicker. Tend to stockpile CDs and listen to their equivalent on Tidal. Then scan a job lot in one go to save time on re-indexing. Probably  an area where a NAS would be better !

Let us know if there is a different format that works for your SSD ( and let us know what it is) as would like to try the SSD to see if there are any practical advantages.  

Si

 

I suspect these Samsung drives (T5 in my case) might be formatted ExFAT from the factory - they will then work for larger files with both PCs and Macs.  The new Unit series does not support ExFAT As far as I know.

I'll need to reformat to HFS+ on the Mac, you'd probably need to format to NTFS (or FAT32 assuming no files larger than 4GB which is unlikely for music, though I can't remember if Windows used to limit FAT32 formatting to smaller capacity drives, though it can be done).  Reformatting should be quick to do - just make sure you have copies of the audio elsewhere as reformatting will wipe data on the Samsung NOT change the format it's stored in.

Another thought - I believe some of the Samsung SSDs offer hardware encryption - I had envisaged this might be a nuisance if enabled by default, but it doesn't seem to be on my Mac so I assume you need to run the Samsung software to enable this.

If you have run Samsung supplied software (usually on the drive when you get it) and have enabled password protection of file access, then your Atom will not be able to access it as it won't have a method to enter a password to get to the data.

Just confirmed that the Samsung T5 models are formatted exFAT out of the box for compatibility with multiple operating systems.

See page 3 of this manual linked to by Amazon:

91AB82bos+S.pdf

Hi Alley Cat. Many thanks for checking this out. I’ll reformat over the weekend (cheers for warning on back up files) and then try again

Reformatting to HFS+ on Mac worked ok but I'm not sure the Nova likes the 1TB drive, or perhaps use of both USB ports - after installing it I could play from attached media but my analogue inputs became strangely silent and I had to unplug/power cycle to hear my turntable again.  Very odd.

I've tried USB sticks plugged directly into DAC, HDX and NDS. I couldn't tell a difference. A USB stick into the front of an NDS is supposedly the ultimate straight path, top quality playback model. My old ears aren't golden enough to hear a difference.

Since we have a robust network and five streamers in the house, having the music distributed on the network is convenient. It's accessible from everywhere, scalable, has good redundancy and for me at least, makes back ups easy to manage and (mostly) error free.

This is how we store and watch our video too. If a USB stick or drive sounded better than a NAS, I wouldn't hesitate. Streaming has brought with it unprecedented convenience facilities, but it's the playback quality that matters first.

As Harry says a USB stick into the front is supposedly the ultimate straight path, top quality playback model.     100% agree on that,  I use(d) a USB stick to benchmark my ethernet, hub & switch experiments.   In the end I had a LAN that was as good as USB for SQ,  or at least as good as makes no difference to my old Mk-II lug'oles.      Problem with USB is the app/browsing is a bit clunky,  gimme a wired LAN anyday.  

Hi Alley Cat - just a quick one to say thank you for the heads up on reformatting the T5 SSD.  Now works a treat, and the Atom definitely starts playing tracks quicker from the SDD than the HDD I had in before.  And on initial tests, the Atom now seems to be able to hold playlists from my stored music  without setting off weird things in the Naim app (which happened with the HDD).

So very happy.  Top advice.  Thanks..

SiBrighton posted:

Hi Alley Cat - just a quick one to say thank you for the heads up on reformatting the T5 SSD.  Now works a treat, and the Atom definitely starts playing tracks quicker from the SDD than the HDD I had in before.  And on initial tests, the Atom now seems to be able to hold playlists from my stored music  without setting off weird things in the Naim app (which happened with the HDD).

So very happy.  Top advice.  Thanks..

Great to hear you've got it working - thanks for posting an update.

Mike-B posted:

As Harry says a USB stick into the front is supposedly the ultimate straight path, top quality playback model.     100% agree on that,  I use(d) a USB stick to benchmark my ethernet, hub & switch experiments.   In the end I had a LAN that was as good as USB for SQ,  or at least as good as makes no difference to my old Mk-II lug'oles.      Problem with USB is the app/browsing is a bit clunky,  gimme a wired LAN anyday.  

Same here on my Atom no difference between USB stick, WiFi and ethernet.

So is there likely to be any difference in SQ between a CD rip coming off a Core versus a USB stick?

Mercky posted:

So is there likely to be any difference in SQ between a CD rip coming off a Core versus a USB stick?

 

These things are not simple to answer. A year or so back I reported that the SQ of files played from a USB stick into my muso Qb was substantially less good than the exact same files were when served from my Unitiserve/Core.

The responses such as they were from other forum members were inconclusive, I thought.

best

David

Mercky posted:

So is there likely to be any difference in SQ between a CD rip coming off a Core versus a USB stick?

 

In my system, probably not. Can't speak for yours.