ND555 Impressions

Preamps have been developed. Unfortunately or fortunately depending how you look at it, the S1 was needed to better the 552 and others. The DR upgrades also took the preamp power supplies to another level. There has been a lot of discussion, most negative, on developing a digital preamp. Naim will jump in when they can move it up a significant notch. There are many have a 552 and have heard an S1, it’s better, but they cannot afford, or it’s not big enough a difference. IMO , it needs a Naim breakthrough, It will take time.

Filipe posted:

Some of the burn in times quoted suggest the equipment is not being played continuously. 17 days would achieve 400 hours. Personally I think Naim equipment takes a very very long time but it is worth it. The difficult issue is whether the system is being held back by setup, something to do with speakers/room etc.

After 6 months with a 252 (282 before + SCDR)  and 555PS (XPSDR before) into nDAC I’m just beginning to be in a really nice place. The weird thing was that the 252 was used for about 6 months before I bought it (the previous owner went up to 552+500).

I think full burn in of ND555 exceeds 500 hours . Judging from playing continuously for close to a month . Could be 600 hours . Mine is no longer changing in sound . For awhile it was a roller coaster in SQ like Darke Bear reported . 

Halloween Man posted:

Brain burn in or gear burn in? I suspect it’s more our brains getting used to the sound. If a new product doesn’t sound good after a few days then I would reject it. In fact I’d be concerned if it sounded any less than superb new out of the box. My speakers and amp sounded wonderful from new.

I can understand an hour or two for warm up but can’t understand any more than that.

Sometimes we might want to like a product more than we actually do. I know I’ve been guilty of that.

Brain burn in ! What BS . The “we get use to the sound theory”.... does not fly .  You would not have the roller coaster sound quality Darke Bear talks about if it was as simple as getting use to the sound . It changes too much .  My ND555 changed in SQ like his did , and eventually  evened out . Sounds much better than on the first day I played it.  The ups and downs in SQ are no longer there . 

Filipe posted:

Some of the burn in times quoted suggest the equipment is not being played continuously. 17 days would achieve 400 hours. Personally I think Naim equipment takes a very very long time but it is worth it. The difficult issue is whether the system is being held back by setup, something to do with speakers/room etc.

After 6 months with a 252 (282 before + SCDR)  and 555PS (XPSDR before) into nDAC I’m just beginning to be in a really nice place. The weird thing was that the 252 was used for about 6 months before I bought it (the previous owner went up to 552+500).

I haven’t done this speed burn in, I just went for the normal one. I only did after some time a speed burn in for my Sony Walkman. Something to consider for whenever I have a next upgrade, f.i. Of 500Dr.

Halloween Man posted:

Brain burn in or gear burn in? I suspect it’s more our brains getting used to the sound. If a new product doesn’t sound good after a few days then I would reject it. In fact I’d be concerned if it sounded any less than superb new out of the box. My speakers and amp sounded wonderful from new.

I can understand an hour or two for warm up but can’t understand any more than that.

Sometimes we might want to like a product more than we actually do. I know I’ve been guilty of that.

Like others have said. The brain burn in aspect is only limited, most of it is real burn in. 

Bert Schurink posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Brain burn in or gear burn in? I suspect it’s more our brains getting used to the sound. If a new product doesn’t sound good after a few days then I would reject it. In fact I’d be concerned if it sounded any less than superb new out of the box. My speakers and amp sounded wonderful from new.

I can understand an hour or two for warm up but can’t understand any more than that.

Sometimes we might want to like a product more than we actually do. I know I’ve been guilty of that.

Like others have said. The brain burn in aspect is only limited, most of it is real burn in. 

Quite agree. If the system is performing the music should draw you in and help get rid of all the stresses of modern life. I choose music to get me to an emotional place I want to be in. It’s very noticeable when you don’t find that place. Very noticeable in burn in periods.

Brain ‘burn in’ or adaptation takes place over hours or less, equipment burn in takes place over weeks or months.

Bert Schurink posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Brain burn in or gear burn in? I suspect it’s more our brains getting used to the sound. If a new product doesn’t sound good after a few days then I would reject it. In fact I’d be concerned if it sounded any less than superb new out of the box. My speakers and amp sounded wonderful from new.

I can understand an hour or two for warm up but can’t understand any more than that.

Sometimes we might want to like a product more than we actually do. I know I’ve been guilty of that.

Like others have said. The brain burn in aspect is only limited, most of it is real burn in. 

Bert, Marcus, in “cisco 2960 , which model to buy “ thread, has a question:  he uses the nd555 and melco in direct mode, and wants to know if it is beneficial to use the cisco before the melco, in that situation.  Perhaps you can answer him.  I am curious too.    Thanks.

French Rooster posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Brain burn in or gear burn in? I suspect it’s more our brains getting used to the sound. If a new product doesn’t sound good after a few days then I would reject it. In fact I’d be concerned if it sounded any less than superb new out of the box. My speakers and amp sounded wonderful from new.

I can understand an hour or two for warm up but can’t understand any more than that.

Sometimes we might want to like a product more than we actually do. I know I’ve been guilty of that.

Like others have said. The brain burn in aspect is only limited, most of it is real burn in. 

Bert, Marcus, in “cisco 2960 , which model to buy “ thread, has a question:  he uses the nd555 and melco in direct mode, and wants to know if it is beneficial to use the cisco before the melco, in that situation.  Perhaps you can answer him.  I am curious too.    Thanks.

Apologies I find this difficult to answer as I am not playing in direct mode and as I pretty happy with the shielding the Melco provides to general network noise. While I have ensured that I did all the rest of the running of the Melco to ensure it sounds best. And I realized everything helped, like led’s, visibility of the Melco by other devices on the network....

So I hope somebody else can provide a feasible answer to the question.

Bert Schurink posted:

French Rooster posted:

Bert, Marcus, in “cisco 2960 , which model to buy “ thread, has a question:  he uses the nd555 and melco in direct mode, and wants to know if it is beneficial to use the cisco before the melco, in that situation.  Perhaps you can answer him.  I am curious too.    Thanks.

Apologies I find this difficult to answer as I am not playing in direct mode and as I pretty happy with the shielding the Melco provides to general network noise. While I have ensured that I did all the rest of the running of the Melco to ensure it sounds best. And I realized everything helped, like led’s, visibility of the Melco by other devices on the network....

So I hope somebody else can provide a feasible answer to the question.

Hi!

My question was rather if there is any use of putting a Cisco 2960 in front of the Melco NAS since the Melco already have a switch ”built in”. Will there be any improvement in SQ with this ”switch before switch solution”?

I have heard from a few sources that a high quality switch close to the hifi-system will be beneficial, probably even with a Melco NAS. I was wondering if anybody have tested or am using this solution?

I actually never tried “direct mode” but guess that I should… 

/Marcus

To instead try to contribute to this topic I could mention that my ND555 arrived last Wednesday (13 days ago). I have left it playing constantly and have accumulated >300h by now. It really sounds wonderful!

Every record I’m playing is sounding so good and so much better than it did with the NDS. I haven’t found a single song where I would have preferred the NDS. The ND555 just makes the music so enjoyable. 

I have followed this topic and was (during my 6 week wait for my own ND555) planning to contribute after its arrival. The problem is that I have had problems doing anything else but rediscovering my record collection 

/Marcus

Bert Schurink posted:

French Rooster posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Brain burn in or gear burn in? I suspect it’s more our brains getting used to the sound. If a new product doesn’t sound good after a few days then I would reject it. In fact I’d be concerned if it sounded any less than superb new out of the box. My speakers and amp sounded wonderful from new.

I can understand an hour or two for warm up but can’t understand any more than that.

Sometimes we might want to like a product more than we actually do. I know I’ve been guilty of that.

Like others have said. The brain burn in aspect is only limited, most of it is real burn in. 

Bert, Marcus, in “cisco 2960 , which model to buy “ thread, has a question:  he uses the nd555 and melco in direct mode, and wants to know if it is beneficial to use the cisco before the melco, in that situation.  Perhaps you can answer him.  I am curious too.    Thanks.

Apologies I find this difficult to answer as I am not playing in direct mode and as I pretty happy with the shielding the Melco provides to general network noise. While I have ensured that I did all the rest of the running of the Melco to ensure it sounds best. And I realized everything helped, like led’s, visibility of the Melco by other devices on the network....

So I hope somebody else can provide a feasible answer to the question.

Bert, if i understand well, your nd555 is not connected to the ethernet switch of the melco ?

sorry for my confusion.    

French Rooster posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

French Rooster posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Brain burn in or gear burn in? I suspect it’s more our brains getting used to the sound. If a new product doesn’t sound good after a few days then I would reject it. In fact I’d be concerned if it sounded any less than superb new out of the box. My speakers and amp sounded wonderful from new.

I can understand an hour or two for warm up but can’t understand any more than that.

Sometimes we might want to like a product more than we actually do. I know I’ve been guilty of that.

Like others have said. The brain burn in aspect is only limited, most of it is real burn in. 

Bert, Marcus, in “cisco 2960 , which model to buy “ thread, has a question:  he uses the nd555 and melco in direct mode, and wants to know if it is beneficial to use the cisco before the melco, in that situation.  Perhaps you can answer him.  I am curious too.    Thanks.

Apologies I find this difficult to answer as I am not playing in direct mode and as I pretty happy with the shielding the Melco provides to general network noise. While I have ensured that I did all the rest of the running of the Melco to ensure it sounds best. And I realized everything helped, like led’s, visibility of the Melco by other devices on the network....

So I hope somebody else can provide a feasible answer to the question.

Bert, if i understand well, your nd555 is not connected to the ethernet switch of the melco ?

sorry for my confusion.    

Perhaps it depends on the quality of the implementation of the physical layer of the Melco. Seem to remember a well known member talking about that in connection with the Cisco.

The Melco is an Ethernet switch, with a built-in music database. There seems to be a lot of confusion about this as it is a unique device in this respect. So instead of having two boxes for NAS and switch they are together in a single box that has two Ethernet ports - a 'noisy' one to connect to the house network and Router and a 'quiet' one to connect to the ND555.

I use a Cisco switch upstream between my Melco and my House router to further segment my network and allow me to run my iPad via Ethernet into that switch. It may not matter and at some point I may try removing the switch and just using the Router direct, but it seemed like a good idea to add another level of isolation - and it sounds good as I have it so tempted to leave it.

You would never use a separate switch box between the Melco and the ND555 without totally missing the point of the Melco. I talked to the Designer and he said that he could hear and measure the impairment of using more than a three meters of Ethernet (actually a lot less I think) between Melco and DAC/Streamer device. I use less than a meter of Ethernet (about two feet) between the Melco and ND555 and I use cheap CAT5.

I was advised by the Designer to use CAT7 of reasonable quality and beware some 'special' cables that were not necessarily better. I've not done that yet and that is in the future to try, as the sonic signature I have now I really want to retain and the cheap CAT5 gave a big easy sound-stage without any glare or brightness that I found the fancy Ethernet gave. Systems are different and others may get different results - I hope there is more to come with better cables but for now I'm very happy.

It is so easy for people to go for a bright, clear presentation that removes all low-level detail. When I played with my Melco I found turning all the light options off in turn each sounded better - except the 'file-sharing' option not being turned-off gave better results for me. Turning this off was meant to be better - it does sound different - but I found I became more unhappy with the performance and putting it on again returned low-level acoustic info that was somehow removed.

Try all these things yourself and do not just presume anyone else has it correct to your taste - me included!

DB.

French Rooster posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

French Rooster posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Brain burn in or gear burn in? I suspect it’s more our brains getting used to the sound. If a new product doesn’t sound good after a few days then I would reject it. In fact I’d be concerned if it sounded any less than superb new out of the box. My speakers and amp sounded wonderful from new.

I can understand an hour or two for warm up but can’t understand any more than that.

Sometimes we might want to like a product more than we actually do. I know I’ve been guilty of that.

Like others have said. The brain burn in aspect is only limited, most of it is real burn in. 

Bert, Marcus, in “cisco 2960 , which model to buy “ thread, has a question:  he uses the nd555 and melco in direct mode, and wants to know if it is beneficial to use the cisco before the melco, in that situation.  Perhaps you can answer him.  I am curious too.    Thanks.

Apologies I find this difficult to answer as I am not playing in direct mode and as I pretty happy with the shielding the Melco provides to general network noise. While I have ensured that I did all the rest of the running of the Melco to ensure it sounds best. And I realized everything helped, like led’s, visibility of the Melco by other devices on the network....

So I hope somebody else can provide a feasible answer to the question.

Bert, if i understand well, your nd555 is not connected to the ethernet switch of the melco ?

sorry for my confusion.    

It’s exactly like DB described in a much more detail. I have the noisy connection with network connected to the intended noisy port of the Melco. And I have my ND555 connected to the other Ethernet port of the Melco. I have switched off all potential noise bringers including file sharing. And I also have a short Ethernet connection between Melco and ND555, I use the Audioquest Vodka on that. And I might test the Chord Music at some point in time for that connection.

I apologize if I didn’t answer precise enough in the first answer. I am not so in the details of the way network connection are implemented.

so, with a melco, a cisco switch is useless?   a simple switch or router is enough to connect the melco.  The nd555 is connected to the melco.

French Rooster posted:

so, with a melco, a cisco switch is useless?   a simple switch or router is enough to connect the melco.  The nd555 is connected to the melco.

The Melco has its own dedicated built-in Ethernet switch and manages priority for music data transfer to the 'quiet' Ethernet output port connecting by a single wire to the ND555. As an engineering solution - if you are going to use Ethernet to connect to the ND555 - then it has a lot to be said for it over assembling multiple devices not intended to meet any particular HiFi performance criteria.

Cisco is not useless, just not required and superfluous here. If inserted between the Melco and ND555 then it will not add anything useful and only defeat the intent of the Melco design, which was to have a low-noise HiFi switch inside a low-noise HiFi music database.

I'm not saying that Melco are the only way to go - other solutions connecting other commercial Ethernet equipment also works too. But if you have auditioned the ND555 with a variety of ways to implement the overall solution and chosen a particular one for musical performance reasons it is hopefully fair to discuss it and answer any questions about it without having to defend 'why' you chose this solution.

From an engineering solution perspective, if the Ethernet is removed from any noisy commercial implementation it is a balanced twisted-wire transmission line way of connecting equipment. The ND555 seems to benefit from reduced noise on its digital input - you don't have to operate it that way but it does sound better to me when you do.

DB.

Ok, very clear DB for the reasons of using the ethernet port of the melco as a silent and isolated switch for the nd555.   But the melco itself must be connected to a switch too.  

So the melco connection to a switch was my question :    the switch for the melco itself must be of good quality or it matters not?     i hope to be more clear.

I've used an old Cisco switch with linear supply to connect to the Melco - mainly on recommendation from this forum - and it is what my Dealer also used for the initial demo. I try to replicate as many elements of what I hear demonstrated to me that 'worked' when I had my home-demo - then home-ownership after purchase.

Naim have done a lot to further isolate the ND555 from any network issues than was achieved with the NDS as has been discussed and my Dealer says they also heard that to be the case too. I was not sufficiently interested in NDS to replace my CD555 as it never caught my attention musically - it was a good device but not a CD555 replacement for music for me, whereas the ND555 was.

So nothing is 'perfect' and it seems that every device achieves a certain level of isolation from other devices as regards noise, so further reducing noise input by not choosing the absolute noisiest switch available to run your HiFi from may be sensible - or not - I leave that for people to decide for themselves.

I think a good quiet commercial switch is a good idea if you use a NAS and still a good idea downstream of the Melco to give it less work to do. It will have a noise-rejection ratio capability so less-in less-out still applies.

DB.

Hi DB,Hows the ND doing ?,mines been ticking over now for 9 days now about 130 hours at low volume,my misses puts op with me well!do you still run a TT?.bob.

Darke Bear posted:

The Melco is an Ethernet switch, with a built-in music database. There seems to be a lot of confusion about this as it is a unique device in this respect. So instead of having two boxes for NAS and switch they are together in a single box that has two Ethernet ports - a 'noisy' one to connect to the house network and Router and a 'quiet' one to connect to the ND555.

I use a Cisco switch upstream between my Melco and my House router to further segment my network and allow me to run my iPad via Ethernet into that switch. It may not matter and at some point I may try removing the switch and just using the Router direct, but it seemed like a good idea to add another level of isolation - and it sounds good as I have it so tempted to leave it.

You would never use a separate switch box between the Melco and the ND555 without totally missing the point of the Melco. I talked to the Designer and he said that he could hear and measure the impairment of using more than a three meters of Ethernet (actually a lot less I think) between Melco and DAC/Streamer device. I use less than a meter of Ethernet (about two feet) between the Melco and ND555 and I use cheap CAT5.

I was advised by the Designer to use CAT7 of reasonable quality and beware some 'special' cables that were not necessarily better. I've not done that yet and that is in the future to try, as the sonic signature I have now I really want to retain and the cheap CAT5 gave a big easy sound-stage without any glare or brightness that I found the fancy Ethernet gave. Systems are different and others may get different results - I hope there is more to come with better cables but for now I'm very happy.

It is so easy for people to go for a bright, clear presentation that removes all low-level detail. When I played with my Melco I found turning all the light options off in turn each sounded better - except the 'file-sharing' option not being turned-off gave better results for me. Turning this off was meant to be better - it does sound different - but I found I became more unhappy with the performance and putting it on again returned low-level acoustic info that was somehow removed.

Try all these things yourself and do not just presume anyone else has it correct to your taste - me included!

DB.

I use a very expensive special Ethernet cable, Chord Sarum from the wall to the Melco (40 Anniversary Model, probably the best NAS ever built/ever to be built). A very positive upgrade from the CAT7 cable I used before. And very expensive...

I’m quite familiar with the Melco pitch and tried “them all”. To these ears, Melcos own Ethernet cables are very good but no match for Sarum (at a price). Music beats them all of course. 

//Jonas

Not wishing to offend anyone who owns or sells expensive cables. I have plenty in my system and will always use them when they work after demo - and don't when I find they do not - personally.

It pleases me that there is or may be better to be had. I'm not advocating cheap cables - only that in my case a cheap one beat one costing more than £1k.

I've also heard and hear where some expensive cables go with their presentation and I don't always find it better, just different and not what I want to have.

DB.

I do wonder how much we convince ourselves about how much this esoterica improves SQ. I have just put Tom Tom replacement grilles on the SBLs on my second system and they look great, like new.

I said to my wife that I was sure that they sounded better, I bet that empirically they don’t, it’s just the feel good factor coming through I think.

Bob green posted:

Hi DB,Hows the ND doing ?,mines been ticking over now for 9 days now about 130 hours at low volume,my misses puts op with me well!do you still run a TT?.bob.

The ND555 after 6 weeks is sounding far more consistent musically and still opening-out and improving. There have been a few dips but fewer as time goes on.

I still have my old TT for sentimental reasons but have not seriously used it for many years as I don't find it really competed with the CD555 let alone the ND555. I hear other Vinyl sources where a lot of money has been spent sounding very good or even excellent. Probably not a path I will seriously go down again.

DB.

Tomorrow it will be Seven weeks of run-in. I don't loop-play, just a few hours use per day.

Presently sounding delightful and giving a beautiful crisp clear sound to instruments with wonderfully-rendered harmonic structure to struck notes on piano with decay way-down into the low-levels and then meshing with the new notes as they are struck and played. Timing is wonderfully captured and rendered - I keep saying wonderful but it is a wonder to me how well this purchase is working-out as my new source for music - and I know there is far more to come later as it further runs-in.

The combination of precise timing and clarity of both loud and very quiet parts of the musical whole weaves a mesh of sound that brings you into the performance and is very special. I've not heard any other source do all of this together - some manage the louder parts and timing well, but cannot render a complex composure without modulation of quieter parts by the louder or masking of quieter instruments or performers while louder instruments are present - but the ND555 takes it all in its stride and delivers a masterful performance.

Anyone who is on the edge of considering this device or not - and can afford it (important) should have a home demo and will not be disappointed IMO.

I've said a few negative 'run-in' related things to give the picture of how this made its entrance into my system, but now time no say more about how pleased I'm becoming with it as time progresses.

DB.