ND555 Impressions

Present discovery today - after the initial Network issues are part-resolved:

Part-resolved - as the Minim Server has died-disappeared, so I'm running with Twonky Server, that seems to be more stable in this system install.

I've found there are 'network issues' that impact the performance. I found that some of the smooth easy clarity that seemed to have seeped into the system overnight, once I resurrected it from death had in part disappeared. Not I got it back again - so this is how:

My Network is a Router (Cisco-Linksys) feeding a CAT5 home LAN via two 1G Ethernet cables into
1. my lounge with its own switch and
2. the HiFi room with its own dedicated old Cisco switch that at present just feeds onward the Melco (which it turn feeds the ND555).

When I un-plug my computer in my lounge (which has no HiFi duties at all) from the LAN by pulling the lead out then the music in the other room is improved in important ways in terms of low-level detail rendition.

Why? Perhaps the Twonky Server on the Melco that decided to push a Web page out onto my LAN to the PC in the lounge caused extra processing noise near the critical music processing stuff.

In any case - I've not yet moved anything from yesterday to get a baseline of all these things that seem to impact the end performance.

Presently the performance is lively open and dynamic - and interesting and involving.

I'm writing this from the Lounge PC (presently disconnected from the house LAN) but connected via (horrible temporary) 4G WiFi USB Pen hanging out my window on an extension lead to get any signal.

Fun times here in Bear Manor.

DB.

Dark Bear,

the old cisco switch you are referring for hifi room is the 2960  model?   could you try to compare the nd555 connected to this switch vs connected to the melco?

It is a Catalyst 2940 -8TT-S obtained SH at good price and worth a go. It has an old internal supply.

Presently just experimenting with finding all the things impacting the performance, prior to later moving the Melco unit from under the Medium shelf the ND555 is sitting on: So presently it is ND555 on Med, then Melco on Med, then empty base level - the latter being empty is important.

I tried switching off the Melco side/internal lights and that was worthwhile in terms of better depth and tone-color portrayal. The front light can also be dimmed and that had a smaller but still positive effect.

Essentially I'm finding in context of this system - Statement S1 into 3x NAP500DR feeding Ovator S800 - that all possibly otherwise small differences are magnified and need to be all nailed-down.

When the source is the CD555 then it is all in a box and not talking to a network and things are easier.

I'm hearing enough good things with this source that I'll persist to bottom-out what I can get to work best in the time I have it on demo.

The music is very entertaining in a good way - meaning it is immediate, clear with excellent timing info. Atop that are the other unwanted artifacts I'm gradually removing - I hope.

I'm using the 'middle' Melco model with hard drives so there is another level up I can go there but felt it should be good enough and want to try to keep possible initial costs under some control - I can hope!

Still a journey at present - more later.

DB.

More testing along same lines with the present config on ND555-Melco:

I turned off a Samsung Smart TV running on the separate segmented lounge network fed by its own Router Ethernet link, as before mentioned. This should not have any effect - but it did and it was another layer of rubbish gone.

As reference I used a CD rip of an early (non-compressed) master of Slow-hand 'Lay Down Sally'.

This usually bobs and bounced playfully along with the drums guitar and vocalist all intimately singing together.

In both cases, with and without the Samsung TV on in the other room, it still did, but there was a layer of unease over the music when the TV was on. I did several AB tests and BA test and it becomes rather obvious the system really likes the TV to be off - more 'dark easy detail' that way.

The way this is shaping-up I'm going to have to get a second Router and program it to make a DMZ between the main house Router and the HiFi LAN segment, as this is crazy. I'm going to have to dig out all that old CCNA training I thought I'd never need again once I retired (wrong) a few years ago.

Hopefully some are finding this useful - or better may be way ahead of me here.

In meantime knowing to turn things off I'm not using that are trying to 'helpfully' connect and explore the new guys on the network is my way ahead.

DB.

i'm very impressed by your perseverance dealing with what looks like a lot of variables DB. 

enjoy

ken

i just wondered if the nd555 connected in ethernet cable directly to the cisco switch was not better sounding than connected directly to the melco?     i know that the melco ethernet imput has noise isolation, but the cisco has perhaps better drive?

Day 11 Update.

With other ND555 impressions now flowing fast, I thought it would be worthwhile to provide an update on how my unit is performing. So far I have resisted the urge to tinker with my network and other external factors, so am only focussed on how the ND555 is performing relative to my old NDS. As a reminder, I'm using a QNAP TS453S-PRO with 4 2.5" Samsung EVO 850 1TB SSDs, Single RAID5 Volume, Asset 6.1running on the NAS set to transcode FLAC to WAV. The core of my network is a Cisco SG300 28P, where the NAS and everything else connect, but I drop a 1Gbit fibre down to a Cisco 2960 8TC-S which sits at the bottom of the 'brain' side of my rack just for the ND555.

I have not noticed and odd running in 'bumps in the road', but the music does now seem to be flowing with even greater ease, so all is well. It's hard to imagine that the initial excellent performance straight out of the box could be improved upon, but with a little running in I am beginning to hear further insights which is amazing given the already stratospheric benchmark. This may be a new-tech network streamer, but it certainly demonstrates its flat-earth heritage in terms of Pace Rhythm and Timing! On fast, percussive tracks, such as those from Rodrigo Y Gabriella, it does not miss a beat, and feels completely at ease with whatever the performers can throw at it, whether plucked strings or finger slaps against the soundboard - absolutely riveting. It's not just the PRAT though, as it manages to reveal far more detail and subtle texture; on the NDS you know its a hand slapping a guitar, but with the ND555 you start to differentiate between whether the slap was at the edge or nearer the middle of the soundboard. Another area where I have notices an improvement is with hi-res where I am starting to really appreciate the difference, providing the mastering is up to scratch. On Alison Krauss and Union Station's Paper Aeroplane, in 24/96 there is far greater detail that I have previously missed when listening to the NDS. You hear so much more, and feel pulled into the centre of the performance. And, bizarrely perhaps, the other thing I have begun to appreciate more is the 'end' of any performance.... in other words the residual decay of the last few notes, which somehow now seem to be revealed giving far more clues about the original ambiance of the studio or live venue. It's odd, as sometimes with the NDS my finger has hit the next button, keen to move on, but now I just sit there basking in the last few seconds.

I'm sure there is still more to come, and I am greatly enjoying reading other peoples impressions. Keep them coming!

Now, back to the music.

Dave

Darke Bear posted:

More testing along same lines with the present config on ND555-Melco:

I turned off a Samsung Smart TV running on the separate segmented lounge network fed by its own Router Ethernet link, as before mentioned. This should not have any effect - but it did and it was another layer of rubbish gone.

As reference I used a CD rip of an early (non-compressed) master of Slow-hand 'Lay Down Sally'.

This usually bobs and bounced playfully along with the drums guitar and vocalist all intimately singing together.

In both cases, with and without the Samsung TV on in the other room, it still did, but there was a layer of unease over the music when the TV was on. I did several AB tests and BA test and it becomes rather obvious the system really likes the TV to be off - more 'dark easy detail' that way.

The way this is shaping-up I'm going to have to get a second Router and program it to make a DMZ between the main house Router and the HiFi LAN segment, as this is crazy. I'm going to have to dig out all that old CCNA training I thought I'd never need again once I retired (wrong) a few years ago.

Hopefully some are finding this useful - or better may be way ahead of me here.

In meantime knowing to turn things off I'm not using that are trying to 'helpfully' connect and explore the new guys on the network is my way ahead.

DB.

At the risk of insulting your CCNA'd intelligence! You might find this thread opened by S-in-S interesting with respect to identifying sources of interference around the house:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...34#73793444789439134

Wall warts, switches, lightbulbs, there seems to be no end to the list of potential culprits. My dealer sometimes turns off his showroom lights during demo's in his listening room, and having checked some of mine, I can understand why. 

It is good to hear other ND555 owner perspectives.

To be clear - I'm being very fussy with my minimum base-level I expect from the ND555 as compared to my CD555 and all my comments are aligned with achieving that level and hopefully surpassing it.

In many areas the ND555 in present 'quiet-ish home network' mode is performing very well and in several important ways doing a bit better than the CD555. The area where it is still borderline is the network interference phenomena.

I'm learning what is needed to be done to remove these gradually and it I eventually decide it does what I want - the point of this demo - then if/when I get my own I will know where to start in running it for optimum performance - and have a plan on what needs to be done to implement a fire walled DMZ with restricted access to the absolute needed ports and protocols the HiFi needs to run right - without other party animals on my Network causing hassle.

My aim is to hear if I get a better quality of experience using the ND555 over the CD555 - on CD rips leaving aside the other capabilities the ND555 has, as this one is key for me. Very encouraging now.

Once I've got a bit farther along I'll describe some of the sonic and musical differences between ND555 and CD555 as I hear them, but need to get to the best the ND555 does first.

DB.

ChrisSU posted:

At the risk of insulting your CCNA'd intelligence! You might find this thread opened by S-in-S interesting with respect to identifying sources of interference around the house:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...34#73793444789439134

Wall warts, switches, lightbulbs, there seems to be no end to the list of potential culprits. My dealer sometimes turns off his showroom lights during demo's in his listening room, and having checked some of mine, I can understand why. 

Insult away!

I can do network stuff and have the training to that level - I just don't enjoy it as much as some do and generally forget stuff I don't enjoy.

I know lots of stuff causes interference to music quality and have a baseline for my house where removing CD555 and inserting ND555 with all else as it was before was my start. Then finding what the ND555 needs that did not bother for obvious reasons the CD555.

Once I know what to remove - turn-off - alter config for and I get a dependable end-result above a threshold of excellent musical enjoyment then I'l in my comfort zone. 

Life boots you out of the Comfort Zone a lot at times but I like to know how to get back to it for my music.

DB.

Bert Schurink posted:

musicfan51 posted:

BPhotographer posted:

Darke Bear posted:

The ND555 presentation is a bit brighter than the CD555. So far I've not found this in a fatiguing way - but depends on particular music.

Generally I find streaming systems so easy to get wrong and lose their performance at this level - so far this combo of ND555 - Melco is doing well. I've tried to limit the distributed network aspect as much as possible for the demo.

When good streaming goes wrong it can become relentless rather than engaging, so part of the extended demo is to get past the short-duration listening to see how it fairs over a longer time.

It is very different in presentation from the CD555 which never, in my set-up, became relentless and just did the job and got out of the way of the music. The test is to see how the ND555 does longer term listening - so far it is doing some good things in a different way.

A very cohesive, measured performance with all the larger-scale and smaller micro-dynamics present. It is done differently from the CD555 and I'd not say it is greatly better or worse at that so far - just different.

DB.

Brighter might be because of the Melco, maybe you can get a UnitiCore for the demo.
Cisco switch, Chord Ethernet cables and a hard-drive recommended by naim inside the UnitiCore made a big different for my NDS.

BP.

I use Chord Indigo aray ethernet cable and it sounded much better than any of the other ethernet cables I had tried . Worth a try in your new top of the line Naim Streamer ! 

Would be interested to know if the Chord Music would improve on my Vodka Cable...

I am thinking it would . 

BPhotographer posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

musicfan51 posted:

BPhotographer posted:

Darke Bear posted:

The ND555 presentation is a bit brighter than the CD555. So far I've not found this in a fatiguing way - but depends on particular music.

Generally I find streaming systems so easy to get wrong and lose their performance at this level - so far this combo of ND555 - Melco is doing well. I've tried to limit the distributed network aspect as much as possible for the demo.

When good streaming goes wrong it can become relentless rather than engaging, so part of the extended demo is to get past the short-duration listening to see how it fairs over a longer time.

It is very different in presentation from the CD555 which never, in my set-up, became relentless and just did the job and got out of the way of the music. The test is to see how the ND555 does longer term listening - so far it is doing some good things in a different way.

A very cohesive, measured performance with all the larger-scale and smaller micro-dynamics present. It is done differently from the CD555 and I'd not say it is greatly better or worse at that so far - just different.

DB.

Brighter might be because of the Melco, maybe you can get a UnitiCore for the demo.
Cisco switch, Chord Ethernet cables and a hard-drive recommended by naim inside the UnitiCore made a big different for my NDS.

BP.

I use Chord Indigo aray ethernet cable and it sounded much better than any of the other ethernet cables I had tried . Worth a try in your new top of the line Naim Streamer ! 

Would be interested to know if the Chord Music would improve on my Vodka Cable...

I compared the AQ Vodka to the Chord Sarum T, the Sarum T was much much better, worth the extra money.

BP.

Chord Indigo aray ethernet was much better than the AQ Vodka. 

Holy mackerel Drake you will be writing a white paper installation guide at this rate....fantastic effort and persistence I have no doubt you find the ultimate network config shortly. Keep it going....cheers

Have any of you ND555 triallists experimented with a direct connection to your media server? (as far as i understand it's optimised for network use). I use a Core connected to NDAC/555DR but my home network isn't especially great and hard to improve without tearing the house down or having hideous trailing wires everywhere - would the ND555 be horribly compromised if i just fed it directly from my Core?

David O'Higgins posted:

I’m listening to the Prom - West Side Story- via an iPad 320k stream- connected to digital input 4, and I really think I have cracked the problem of how to replace NAT01 in Ireland (being too far away for a good FM signal). 

David, I am also in Ireland.  How did you get the iPad 320k stream?

Thanks

   Paul

My Dealer has already taken a liking to the idea of a DMZ - I'm hoping he will investigate all that to help their demo environment look similar to typical homes - and in turn help me with all the ports and protocols I need to program-up if/when I take on that job.

Essentially I want my house network to be the 'chatty' normal network it is and all home networks are - but have a quiet dark Naim network that is otherwise invisible and hence free of unwanted invites for digital dates the poor Melco is presently fending-off.

I turned-off a little while ago the Melco 'Network sharing' access so it is now running quieter in that respect and it was audible. I have some old well-recorded music that shows-up any hint of ingress of digital glare and it seemed a lot quiter and darker - what I want.

I'm almost now down to the sonic signature differences between the ND555 and CD555. The CD555 is a rounder more friendly presentation and the ND555 is far cleaner less rounded as in more open at top and even at low bass - friedly in a different way - I'm still getting used to it to decide.

DB.

DB, you are welcome to drop me an email, but a DMZ is the last thing you want near your network audio. If you are concerned about Ethernet processing noise.. and the ND555 goes to some lengths to decouple that.. them there are  things one can do. A DMZ will be potentially busy  from the  internet.  However it looks like you may be suffereing from common mode RF or conducted mains noise issues. What happens to the ND555 when it has spooled a track and plays it from memory and you disconnect your Ethernet lead?... does the sound take a step forward? Or no difference.. if the latter the network is a red herring.

If you are experiencing varying SQ differences, and the SQ steps forward with the Ethernet patch lead disconnected.. your home network / subnet may have a high level of broadcast traffic from various devices  that your ND555 is having to process. . A wireshark trace from a span port will confirm. The fix here is to create a dedicated audio subnet and Wifi SSID for audio. Again you might need to upgrade your router to support. Your Cisco 2960 will support this, but depending on setup, you may need to or have it suitably configured.

Simon

Paul Quigley ie posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

I’m listening to the Prom - West Side Story- via an iPad 320k stream- connected to digital input 4, and I really think I have cracked the problem of how to replace NAT01 in Ireland (being too far away for a good FM signal). 

David, I am also in Ireland.  How did you get the iPad 320k stream?

Hi I use ExpressVPN on my ipad, iPhone and I use as a tether for other devices... it worked well when I watched the BBC coverage of the World Cup when travelling around Europe this summer... although some European mobile carriers blocked the VPN on 4G, but I had no problem with Wifi or regular broadband access using the VPN.

andrew jameson posted:

Have any of you ND555 triallists experimented with a direct connection to your media server? (as far as i understand it's optimised for network use). I use a Core connected to NDAC/555DR but my home network isn't especially great and hard to improve without tearing the house down or having hideous trailing wires everywhere - would the ND555 be horribly compromised if i just fed it directly from my Core?

I do not know but (assuming that the the ND555 has a SPDIF input which I do not know whether it is the case or not) you would be using only the DAC section of the ND555 which seems a bit of a waste of resources. You could consider instead something like an Antipodes CX or a Melco instead of the Core. These offer a direct ethernet connection to streamers without requiring you to tear down the house. Another advantage of the Antipodes CX is that it can run MinimServer and a Roon server. It seems a more competent server than the Naim Core.

Simon - thanks for the offer of a chat on such things and I may go there if I get farther along this path.

I did not mean putting the HiFi in the DMZ as that would be absurd, but creating a DMZ in between the incoming house network and the HiFi net by setting a second router to talk to the main Internet one and this Second one providing the network for the HiFi. The space in-between the two Routers is the DMZ, so I was meaning to create one, not to sit anything in it!

A bit more to report...

I had a bad experience for a while with the ND555 until I realised what it was. The sound was clean clear and uninvolving and leaving me cold and really desiring my CD555 back.

Then I tried un-doing the change that had seemed initially better on the Melco. This was the USB File-share turn off which is meant to isolate it in a good way. Turning it back on restored the warmth and emotion. I tried it turned off then on then off a few times with a test track and finally it just sounds better with it not turned off but on, so Melco need to look at that.

My test track was Renaissance 'Black Flame' from a good early version of the 'turn of the cards' album. It is a spooky quiet gentle piece which explodes in soaring dynamics as Annie grapples with something dark - it can go very well or fall-flat if you lose low-level resolution and on one mode I was.

You just bung it in and it works I hear maniacally laughing somewhere! 

More to come.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

Simon - thanks for the offer of a chat on such things and I may go there if I get farther along this path.

I did not mean putting the HiFi in the DMZ as that would be absurd, but creating a DMZ in between the incoming house network and the HiFi net by setting a second router to talk to the main Internet one and this Second one providing the network for the HiFi. The space in-between the two Routers is the DMZ, so I was meaning to create one, not to sit anything in it!

A bit more to report...

DB, I believe Alan Ainslie of Melco advocates doing exactly what you are considering with a second router. He sent me a PDF with a schematic. Not sure how to show that to you. Perhaps If you send your email to my wall I’d be happy to forward you the email. 

It’s odd... Darke Bear’s experience with network tweaks is not what I was expecting to see, as Naim have taken far more care to isolate the DAC stage from the Streamer module than with the NDS. The Melco seems particularly prone to introducing negative effects, so at present I am glad to have stuck with a network config I know and trust. Good luck with your exploration DB.

Dave.

Presently seem to have got onto a more even keel running mode with the ND555 so leaving all tweaks alone for a few hours and just playing different music and soaking it all in.

The ND555 and CD555 both are fine sources that present music in different ways and I'd at present not like to say which of the two was 'better' - they are both really good and both present differently.

With ND555 I'm getting a larger more immersive sound with good dynamic rendering of drums and synth/bass guitar notes. With the CD555 it is still a big sound with very 'solid' imaging and the textures are presented differently - meaning the harmonic structure portrayal as things weave and change. The ND555 has a more extended top-end and things have more room - even perhaps too much room. The CD555 seems to lack nothing but just presents things differently - possibly still a bit better on drum hits and percussion, but the ND555 is pretty good here too and probably beats the CD555 on longer bass notes and lighter percussive hits. Both different and involving sources.

I'll go into this more tomorrow when I set-up my CD555 so I can switch between it and the ND555 on the same music. At present this is from musical memory of things I know well and play often - and I want to give the ND555 a good run and let it breath in the system a bit and get used to it.

I think I'd like to have both - but I thought that about the NDS too, but the ND555 is in a much higher league of performance that it is just possible it may meet a point of replacing the CD555 in my system, but I still have a few things I need to get straight first. I like the musical things the ND555 is doing very well at present - but sometimes things don't fall onto a linear scale of 'better' and 'worse' - it would be easier if sometimes they did.

As to the Melco - I like the idea of it as a concept and my Dealer has often demoed it over time in different systems, so it is logical to try it. But it has its own foibles I'm discovering and also does not have a 'worse' to 'better' set of buttons. But it does have a lot of controls that do impact the sound.

At some point I may try the ND555 in another mode as people are suggesting. But at present it is sounding very special in many ways so perhaps the Melco is doing something useful after all.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

Presently seem to have got onto a more even keel running mode with the ND555 so leaving all tweaks alone for a few hours and just playing different music and soaking it all in.

The ND555 and CD555 both are fine sources that present music in different ways and I'd at present not like to say which of the two was 'better' - they are both really good and both present differently.

With ND555 I'm getting a larger more immersive sound with good dynamic rendering of drums and synth/bass guitar notes. With the CD555 it is still a big sound with very 'solid' imaging and the textures are presented differently - meaning the harmonic structure portrayal as things weave and change. The ND555 has a more extended top-end and things have more room - even perhaps too much room. The CD555 seems to lack nothing but just presents things differently - possibly still a bit better on drum hits and percussion, but the ND555 is pretty good here too and probably beats the CD555 on longer bass notes and lighter percussive hits. Both different and involving sources.

I'll go into this more tomorrow when I set-up my CD555 so I can switch between it and the ND555 on the same music. At present this is from musical memory of things I know well and play often - and I want to give the ND555 a good run and let it breath in the system a bit and get used to it.

I think I'd like to have both - but I thought that about the NDS too, but the ND555 is in a much higher league of performance that it is just possible it may meet a point of replacing the CD555 in my system, but I still have a few things I need to get straight first. I like the musical things the ND555 is doing very well at present - but sometimes things don't fall onto a linear scale of 'better' and 'worse' - it would be easier if sometimes they did.

As to the Melco - I like the idea of it as a concept and my Dealer has often demoed it over time in different systems, so it is logical to try it. But it has its own foibles I'm discovering and also does not have a 'worse' to 'better' set of buttons. But it does have a lot of controls that do impact the sound.

At some point I may try the ND555 in another mode as people are suggesting. But at present it is sounding very special in many ways so perhaps the Melco is doing something useful after all.

DB.

Most Naim Gear takes about a month to fully break in. I know my Naim NDS did.  So I am betting it gets better and better DB.