ND555 Impressions

I know there is run-in and it is a brand new Dealer demo item that has had few hours on it - I'm putting a few more on!

It for tonight and final day of home demo tomorrow.

I could not connect to forum earlier as my WiFi WAN connect stops working in the rain! I really want my proper broadband back.

Final test tonight was to turn off my Sky TV box via the remote - it is also on the LAN and I was not expecting much, but yes I could hear the system get better with it off. I tried it back on then off a few times to confirm but with the Sky box on it added a layer of dullness to the HF and closed-in things a bit - with it off the sound revealed fine detail in string instruments and HF synth better.

All strange stuff - as Kevin mentioned above, it may not be crazy to do what I suggest if it comes down to adding a single extra router box suitable programmed into the network to remove all these forms of grief. It should also help those with the normal non-Melco NAS too - perhaps even more.

Ethernet is horrible - when I learned about it in training I remember thinking 'they can't do it like that' but they do. Collision domains, contention, re-sends... add onto the top of all this the mesh of boxes discovering others and being spurned but not giving up and it is a mess of high voltage signals far larger than the analogue signal output from your ND555 and even a little radiation will couple unwanted stuff in.

But it 'works' apart from that - just gives high-end HiFi systems an engineering challenge to resolve within the constraints imposed by Ethernet and its transmission protocols. Segmentation and blocking can quieten a lot down - may even keep the Russians out ...but nothing can do that it seems!

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

I know there is run-in and it is a brand new Dealer demo item that has had few hours on it - I'm putting a few more on!

It for tonight and final day of home demo tomorrow.

I could not connect to forum earlier as my WiFi WAN connect stops working in the rain! I really want my proper broadband back.

Final test tonight was to turn off my Sky TV box via the remote - it is also on the LAN and I was not expecting much, but yes I could hear the system get better with it off. I tried it back on then off a few times to confirm but with the Sky box on it added a layer of dullness to the HF and closed-in things a bit - with it off the sound revealed fine detail in string instruments and HF synth better.

All strange stuff - as Kevin mentioned above, it may not be crazy to do what I suggest if it comes down to adding a single extra router box suitable programmed into the network to remove all these forms of grief. It should also help those with the normal non-Melco NAS too - perhaps even more.

Ethernet is horrible - when I learned about it in training I remember thinking 'they can't do it like that' but they do. Collision domains, contention, re-sends... add onto the top of all this the mesh of boxes discovering others and being spurned but not giving up and it is a mess of high voltage signals far larger than the analogue signal output from your ND555 and even a little radiation will couple unwanted stuff in.

But it 'works' apart from that - just gives high-end HiFi systems an engineering challenge to resolve within the constraints imposed by Ethernet and its transmission protocols. Segmentation and blocking can quieten a lot down - may even keep the Russians out ...but nothing can do that it seems!

DB.

It will be very nteresting what everyone says about the ND555 after it has been fully burned in after a month or more! 

DB, I’m curious to know if you have tried Simon’s suggestion to pull out the Ethernet lead from your streamer and listen for any differences. If the track is fairly short, it will load into the buffer very quickly and you can then listen to all of it with your network fully decoupled. I have tried this on my Atom, but I think it might be more worthwhile on your slightly more revealing system!

Darke Bear posted:

Simon - thanks for the offer of a chat on such things and I may go there if I get farther along this path.

I did not mean putting the HiFi in the DMZ as that would be absurd, but creating a DMZ in between the incoming house network and the HiFi net by setting a second router to talk to the main Internet one and this Second one providing the network for the HiFi. The space in-between the two Routers is the DMZ, so I was meaning to create one, not to sit anything in it!

A bit more to report...

Ok let’s talk, but again unless you wanting to set up an I trusted perimeter network, say because are running external facing web services, then a DMZ is not really going to do much for you other than add cost and uneccessary complication.

However I wonder if you are really referring to wanting to setup a separate subnet and SSID for your audio, which is away from your all your other consumer software such as mDNS, Airplay(2), other UPnP services , home automation etc , as these will be loading your ND500 to some slight extent in terms of broadcast processing. I have done this before, and provided possibly some slight subtle  improvement, however I found decoupling my DAC from the streamer was the best answer...however  not something you are really wanting to do with the ND509 I suspect... so the separate subnet might make sense. This subnet is best setup from your edge/broadband router so your router needs to be capable of doing this. Unless the router automatically routes connected subnets you will need to set some static routes up on the router so the your two or more subnets can talk/route to each other.  You will also need to assign a separate Wifi SSID to each subnet

Best not use a separate router to do this unless you really have to... this will require the use of static routes in both routers, and require separate Wifi access points etc which may clas with your main access points.

Finally do pull the Ethernet plug out. In development I think it was a Trevor who told me Naim  did to help optimise things... and hear if the network itself is affecting things as opposed perhaps to EM interference over the mains or air from network or other equipment which I suspect is more likely.

kevin J Carden posted:

DB, I believe Alan Ainslie of Melco advocates doing exactly what you are considering with a second router. He sent me a PDF with a schematic. Not sure how to show that to you. Perhaps If you send your email to my wall I’d be happy to forward you the email. 

For the reason I state above, I don’t advocate doing this with a separate router unless you are having to use very cheap consumer stuff, but even here it will need to support static routes or  routing protocols between the two routers... you also will need to use separate Wifi access points that might interfere unless you were going to use VLANs and an access point that can map VLANs to SSIDs which most pro ones can.... but it is complication.  Before going down this potentially futile path.. I have suggested to DB that he does the new Ethernet lead buffer test... to see if he hears any difference when the Ethernet lead is disconnected when playing a track.

One of the key areas of the ND500 in development was to mitigate this sort of Ethernet noise... so it would be alarming if it was so apparent... 

“One of the key areas of the ND500 in development was to mitigate this sort of Ethernet noise... so it would be alarming if it was so apparent... “

My thoughts exactly, Simon. For what it is worth, I tried disconnecting the Ethernet cable from the ND555 whilst playing a track and could hear no difference in the sound quality. DB however has a much more sensitive and revealing active 500 system compared to my passive one and younger ears so he may well report differently!

Paul Quigley ie posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

I’m listening to the Prom - West Side Story- via an iPad 320k stream- connected to digital input 4, and I really think I have cracked the problem of how to replace NAT01 in Ireland (being too far away for a good FM signal). 

David, I am also in Ireland.  How did you get the iPad 320k stream?

Thanks

   Paul

I use an app called VPN (virtual private network) to acquire a UK IP address and then Tune In Radio to get BBC Radio 3. You can then use the ‘select stream’ option to get one of the 320k streams. I then connect the iPad to a PURE dock, which passes the digital stream to the ND555. That dock is no longer available, unfortunately, but you might find one secondhand. It is an iPod dock but I have found that it works better with iPad, with an adapter. 

Michael posted:

“One of the key areas of the ND500 in development was to mitigate this sort of Ethernet noise... so it would be alarming if it was so apparent... “

My thoughts exactly, Simon. For what it is worth, I tried disconnecting the Ethernet cable from the ND555 whilst playing a track and could hear no difference in the sound quality. DB however has a much more sensitive and revealing active 500 system compared to my passive one and younger ears so he may well report differently!

I know my system's slightly different; the ethernet connection's only there for control purposes (although the Melco "sees" music stored elsewhere on my network - iMac, QNAP NAS etc., if I stream from anywhere other than the Melco's HDs the sound quality takes a dive) and I use the direct USB connection into my DAVE. But similarly disconnecting the ethernet from the Melco causes no discernable difference in sound quality.

David O'Higgins posted:

I’ve just heard The Byrds ‘eight miles high’ as though for the first time (from the cd box set There Is A Season). What would it be like in 24bit?

Congratulations David, Naim have come up trumps to make sure your early days of retirement are spent revisiting your collection. 

Enjoy. 

.sjb

tonym posted:

Michael posted:

“One of the key areas of the ND500 in development was to mitigate this sort of Ethernet noise... so it would be alarming if it was so apparent... “

My thoughts exactly, Simon. For what it is worth, I tried disconnecting the Ethernet cable from the ND555 whilst playing a track and could hear no difference in the sound quality. DB however has a much more sensitive and revealing active 500 system compared to my passive one and younger ears so he may well report differently!

I know my system's slightly different; the ethernet connection's only there for control purposes (although the Melco "sees" music stored elsewhere on my network - iMac, QNAP NAS etc., if I stream from anywhere other than the Melco's HDs the sound quality takes a dive) and I use the direct USB connection into my DAVE. But similarly disconnecting the ethernet from the Melco causes no discernable difference in sound quality.

That's an interesting observation. Thus, even for a very good DAC like the DAVE and a very good USB output like that of the Melco, what happens upstream does play a role. If I am not mistaken, the Melco (and the new Antipodes CX) also have direct ethernet outputs for DACs with ethernet inputs. It would be interesting to know if the same observations hold when the ND555 is connected to these direct outputs. I guess this could actually be the setup of the OP who also owns a Melco, I seem to remember.

Michael posted:

“One of the key areas of the ND500 in development was to mitigate this sort of Ethernet noise... so it would be alarming if it was so apparent... “

My thoughts exactly, Simon. For what it is worth, I tried disconnecting the Ethernet cable from the ND555 whilst playing a track and could hear no difference in the sound quality. DB however has a much more sensitive and revealing active 500 system compared to my passive one and younger ears so he may well report differently!

Same for me - I also have a connection with the Melco, so I assume already there will be a filter with external noise. Also having a separated network for my music as well.

Sloop John B posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

I’ve just heard The Byrds ‘eight miles high’ as though for the first time (from the cd box set There Is A Season). What would it be like in 24bit?

Congratulations David, Naim have come up trumps to make sure your early days of retirement are spent revisiting your collection. 

Enjoy. 

.sjb

Thanks John. Will you risk coming over to hear it....?

David

David O'Higgins posted:

Sloop John B posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

I’ve just heard The Byrds ‘eight miles high’ as though for the first time (from the cd box set There Is A Season). What would it be like in 24bit?

Congratulations David, Naim have come up trumps to make sure your early days of retirement are spent revisiting your collection. 

Enjoy. 

.sjb

Thanks John. Will you risk coming over to hear it....?

David

Sure if you're willing to risk listening to HQP upsampling to DSD512 via ultraRendu/LPS1 in to the HoloAudio Spring DAC Level 3 it would be churlish of me not to reciprocate. My listening room is nearly cleared of boxes 9 months after the renovation!

.sjb

Day 3 Home Demo

Leaving aside all network issues now - I turn-off other items on the network while listening for now. I'm not pulling Ethernet cables out while playing as there is a tenuous connection between the WiFi connected iPad controller that is mostly now sort-of working but often goes off in a sulk leaving me unable to stop an album after the track I wanted - it is intensely irritating to me when the controller dies and that issue I want to park for another time to be fixed.

Today I moved the Melco Server from under the ND555 fraim and onto a side-table - and old Sound Org HiFi table and resumed - the difference was there in mixed ways - something better and more bass bloom - put a sheet of glass under Melco on three support points and bass bloom goes.

I listen for a while and the urge arises to re-insert my old CD555, so I do that for a bit and play the same track from 'Slowhand' Lay Down Sally. With the CD555 there is not now the temptation to play it loud to get it to 'work' I was noticing I had with the ND555. The CD555 was cold and off for two days but it rendered the track in a cohesive focused way that was better than I got with the ND555. There was a good sense of 'there' with textures and the interplay between the musicians that was being done that bit better.

I return to the ND555 - the CD555 is a lot heavier (as a physical box I mean)! With the ND555 on the sme track once everything synced-up again there was that sense of freshness and colour that the ND555 does do better, I think, than the CD555, but it was a little more bland performance - flatter and less feeling of the moment - for me.

I'm going to play more now with the ND555 and perhaps again swap back for an interlude with the CD555 to verify what I think I'm hearing.

I'd like to be able to fully-replace the CD555 with ND555 as in so many ways that is the option that I want to work.

But I'm hearing that the ND555 excels on some music and the CD555 does a better job with others so far. Obviously a little frustrating.

Ignoring all pressure from outside and within to declare a 'winner' it is presently as I say above. I may try a few more things I have in mind for the ND555 to see if I can make it go a little farther.

DB.

...minor update:

Putting the Melco onto the Fraim 'brawn' stack atop the two 555PS powering the ND555 was a big improvement.

I'll continue listening with it in this mode as this is probably the best so far. The ND555 is a very wide-bandwidth output source and it does very low bass power that can cause problems if everything connecting into it (Melco) is not properly installed.

DB.

Hi Drake could it be that the Melco is highly microphonic and therefore very sensitive to placement....

Could you tell us in wich area or music genre they excels respectively ?

Regards

Roberto

Music:

Things that have scale - like live concert performances, the ND555 does very well. It gives full range to the exposition of the performance in terms of power, life, drive and connection.

Things that are more intimate - like a small group or a studio grouping of a few players and a singer the CD555 does really well in terms of intimate connection, the awareness of small-scale acoustic information.

Both ND555 and CD555 are not bad at either of these aspects, but seem to have the range of experience where they excel and are reasonably competent otherwise. 

This is the 'different not better' I was getting at.

But the ND555 may turn out ultimately better once I have all other performance-impacting parameters better understood and nailed-down better.

This is in the context of a Statement S1 - Active DR500 system, so it is perhaps demanding and revealing of otherwise small things - perhaps.

The Melco on its own separate high quality table - standard level fraim - does seem best so far and perhaps I wish I'd began here, but then it would not have been clear to me it was important.

I'm not trying to confirm others opinions one way or another and this is just my personal journey.

DB.

so I take it results so far are somewhat mixed in your very high-end setup?  hope you get to the end of all the optimisations and get to hear what the ND555 brings to the party.

enjoy

/ken

Update.

Big improvement wrought.

On intuition more than any reason I decided to swap-out the HiFi Ethernet cable between the ND555 and Melco for a cheap and cheerful commercial bog-standard floppy blue lead I had laying about to hear what if anything it did. It may be rescuing things.

The change was immediate - more boogie-factor, fluid easy-going things come back into the room and the room even itself makes an appearance.

I never got on with stiff interconnect cables before when I tried on the CD555 so perhaps it is not a big surprise.

More later.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

Update.

Big improvement wrought.

On intuition more than any reason I decided to swap-out the HiFi Ethernet cable between the ND555 and Melco for a cheap and cheerful commercial bog-standard floppy blue lead I had laying about to hear what if anything it did. It may be rescuing things.

The change was immediate - more boogie-factor, fluid easy-going things come back into the room and the room even itself makes an appearance.

I never got on with stiff interconnect cables before when I tried on the CD555 so perhaps it is not a big surprise.

More later.

DB.

mirrors my experiment when I tried out different ethernet cables sometime ago. out of the ones I tried, including some quite expensive ones -- the best performing (for me, in my system etc etc) was the cheapest German made one...

Glad you seem to have 'arrived' at last!?

enjoy

/ken

Michael posted:

“One of the key areas of the ND500 in development was to mitigate this sort of Ethernet noise... so it would be alarming if it was so apparent... “

My thoughts exactly, Simon. For what it is worth, I tried disconnecting the Ethernet cable from the ND555 whilst playing a track and could hear no difference in the sound quality. DB however has a much more sensitive and revealing active 500 system compared to my passive one and younger ears so he may well report differently!

Michael, indeed if DB does hear a difference, then he can quickly fine tune and isolate without possible dead ends.

I am concerned he says he is rather not disconnecting his Ethernet (which could be quite decisive on the supposition of network noise, choice of Melcos etc) because he has something about funnies with his Wifi... that gives me the impression all is not well with his home network...

Your findings are interesting... so at least your ND555 is decoupled and independent from network in terms of noise influences... at least one implemenration met a ND555 design objective 

I will be installing my ND555 later this week. I am also replacing my US with a Core in the next few weeks. What is the optimum way to to connect the Core to the ND555 when playing ripped CD’s?Ethernet cable to switch to ND555 or digital cable directly from Core to ND555?

The Beast is released!

Ok that was significant - the Ethernet lead was seriously constraining the ND555, now it is behaving like a wild force of nature in my system, which is actually what I constructed my system to allow.

A freedom from constraint now. Music ranges and goes where it likes and massive increase in perceived usable dynamic range.

Compare wild horses vs dressage in-harness.

Smoother more easy-dynamic with micro-detail now in better relation to the whole.

Less 'well-behaved' more dangerous.

Music I didn't know you could dance to - you have to.

A great change - I'll soak this in for a while.

DB.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Michael posted:

“One of the key areas of the ND500 in development was to mitigate this sort of Ethernet noise... so it would be alarming if it was so apparent... “

My thoughts exactly, Simon. For what it is worth, I tried disconnecting the Ethernet cable from the ND555 whilst playing a track and could hear no difference in the sound quality. DB however has a much more sensitive and revealing active 500 system compared to my passive one and younger ears so he may well report differently!

Michael, indeed if DB does hear a difference, then he can quickly fine tune and isolate without possible dead ends.

I am concerned he says he is rather not disconnecting his Ethernet (which could be quite decisive on the supposition of network noise, choice of Melcos etc) because he has something about funnies with his Wifi... that gives me the impression all is not well with his home network...

Your findings are interesting... so at least your ND555 is decoupled and independent from network in terms of noise influences... at least one implemenration met a ND555 design objective 

Yes and it was a huge relief to discover that was the case. I have about ten different devices on my wired LAN not all working at the same time of course, plus a host of wireless devices such as phones and tablets and it would have been a nightmare to isolate any extraneous noise creeping into the audio chain. Seems Naim and Melco have really done their homework on isolating this during their R&D.

Disconnecting the Ethernet cable here briefly had no impact on the iPad’s ability to control the system on reconnection.

i am finding this thread fascinating reading as we venture into uncharted waters with the new ND555 to wring the very best out of it. Thanks to all the contributors thus far. Interesting times ahead.